260 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Definately. If you want shades of grey Deus Ex is the place to look.

I've never felt so restricted or a slave to the story tellers whim as I have in DA2. I don't consider that as mature I consider it quite the opposite.

I'd disagree. While Deus Ex offered phenomenal gameplay, its story was not told in a manner which really promoted 'freedom'. Deus Ex's strengths really did lie in how varied your gameplay options were. You're about as much a slave in DA2 as you are in any other Bioware game, like Kotor or the Mass Effect series.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Kileyan]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

touche

[jds1bio]

Il Divo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Definately. If you want shades of grey Deus Ex is the place to look.

I've never felt so restricted or a slave to the story tellers whim as I have in DA2. I don't consider that as mature I consider it quite the opposite.

I'd disagree. While Deus Ex offered phenomenal gameplay, its story was not told in a manner which really promoted 'freedom'. Deus Ex's strengths really did lie in how varied your gameplay options were. You're about as much a slave in DA2 as you are in any other Bioware game, like Kotor or the Mass Effect series.

Very few games just set you up and let you do whatever in the world until you feel like stopping.  Etrian Odyssey III comes to mind.

[jds1bio]

So, to sum up some of the responses so far:

Some say that the inclusion of boobs, blood, spawning and exploding enemies in DA2 makes the question of gamers being mature irrelevant, because DA2 has its own immature factors.

Some say the topic asks the wrong question, and the question should be "Is Dragon Age II mature enough for gamers?"

Some say this post has been ridiculous and they have had a hard time keeping from laughing throughout.

And most of us have had an interesting discussion on the maturity of gamers, games, and storytelling in games. We've acknowledged the maturity of the connections we've made with them, and how DA2 may or may not have satisfied our mature sides.

Hopefully as you play through the game you will join the conversation.

[vigna]

It is the Kobayashi maru of video game plots. It's not winnable. I cannot satisfactorily complete the game because the option I want doesn't exist. I understand the themes and the political undulations occurring. I don't believe everything is grey and everything is relative. The game approaches the story in such a way to elicit emotions from you that it wants. It forces the emotions rather than letting you discover them yourself. it is heavy-handed.....i finally got it.

[koshiee]

it's not about being mature it's about what you look for in a game.

[jds1bio]

koshiee wrote...

it's not about being mature it's about what you look for in a game.

so for example, what did you look for in DA2 that you found or didn't find?

[Phonantiphon]

I'm not sure that some of the ones on here are...

[Perles75]

jds1bio wrote...

So what do you think?  Are gamers mature enough for DA2?

Judging from the level of the debate in this forum , I highly doubt it.
But that of course it's not Da2's fault

Modifié par Perles75, 18 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[android654]

The subject matter is clearly more honest to the real world, which helps with immersing yourself into the character. Its clearly nowhere near as fantastic as Origins was. With that being said, the actual execution could have been done in a manner where the decisions felt as though they actually originated from somewhere, rather than events that simply occurred.

With that being said, the most mature game I've come across is clearly Heavy Rain, not to mention the execution feels like what DA2 was trying to achieve with decision making.

[jds1bio]

Hmm...I felt like Heavy Rain's gameplay was mostly puppetry, it didn't hold my interest there.

There have been more than a few games out there where people stopped playing them right before the end of the game, because the game wouldn't allow them to make a decision or do something they wanted to do. So, they left the game unresolved, as if the ending never would actually happen.

It's an interesting choice to make, not unlike that chosen (by a computer!) for WarGames' Global Thermonuclear War. It's almost as if to say "The only winning move is not to play."

[GRX Dragon]

jds1bio wrote...

And I'm not talking about the M rating or the behavior of some forum users.  I'm talking about the game's subject matter and its gameplay. 

In some respects it is much easier to see ourselves in a purely good vs.evil. scenario (like in Origins), where no matter our deepest flaws, we are clearly the good guy. We may also enjoy dressing up our characters in different armors like they are dolls, and when we lose such an ability in DA2, we are really losing the ability to control.  Perhaps some gamers are being confronted with these situations for the very first time in their lives, and don't quite have a handle on them yet.  But analyzing these situations help us understand ourselves, and perhaps that is what scares people the most about this game.

Anyone who has ever been screwed over by a family member, suffered a family loss, or had to make a decision regarding another family member's health will recognize that the writing and the treatment the characters are given in DA2 is completely plausible, and just may hit home for some of you like it did for me.   For my first playthrough, with a party made up of mostly women who have lost greatly, but still find something to live for, the experience has been like no other in gaming so far. 

As for the gameplay, there have been lots of complaints over the oft-used settings where the combat takes place.  Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square.

So what do you think?  Are gamers mature enough for DA2?

Tl;dr: Anyone that doesn't like DA2, despite the obvious W next to the RPG, is immature.

My my, the pot calling the kettle black. (How ironic it is, that those who are most likely to use the term 'maturity', are the most immature of us all.)

WRPGs exist precisely because they appeal to the idea of a customizable world more-or-less. People that don't want a customizable world can just play a JRPG. I mean hey, I don't really mind the lack of customization per-se, but the lack of it in a so-called WRPG is what disturbs me and anyone else with a brain.

[jds1bio]

GRX Dragon wrote...

Tl;dr: Anyone that doesn't like DA2, despite the obvious W next to the RPG, is immature.

My my, the pot calling the kettle black. (How ironic it is, that those who are most likely to use the term 'maturity', are the most immature of us all.)

WRPGs exist precisely because they appeal to the idea of a customizable world more-or-less. People that don't want a customizable world can just play a JRPG. I mean hey, I don't really mind the lack of customization per-se, but the lack of it in a so-called WRPG is what disturbs me and anyone else with a brain.

Your tldr summary does not sum up what I am saying.  I just cited a couple of possibilities of how a mature approach may bring some gamers to connect with the game meaningfully.  There are plenty of gamers who have approached DA2 from a mature viewpoint, and still NOT liked the game.  That's absolutely fine.  If you don't like DA2, that's absolutely fine too.

If you are suggesting I am immature, you will need more evidence than citing what one well-used cooking vessel is calling another.  If you are suggesting that I have no brain because I can connect meaningfully with DA2, well that's not exactly a statement born from maturity, is it?

That said, I've never played a WRPG where I've been able to customize the world (while I'm playing the standard campaign, I'm not talking about mods).  My character, customizable yes in varying degrees, but not the world.  Not being able to have a true impact on the world or the story is one of the biggest laments we gamers have of current RPGS, no?

[Alex109222]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

Well done. I was just about to say that. 

[Aesieru]

jds1bio wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Definately. If you want shades of grey Deus Ex is the place to look.

I've never felt so restricted or a slave to the story tellers whim as I have in DA2. I don't consider that as mature I consider it quite the opposite.

I'd disagree. While Deus Ex offered phenomenal gameplay, its story was not told in a manner which really promoted 'freedom'. Deus Ex's strengths really did lie in how varied your gameplay options were. You're about as much a slave in DA2 as you are in any other Bioware game, like Kotor or the Mass Effect series.

Very few games just set you up and let you do whatever in the world until you feel like stopping.  Etrian Odyssey III comes to mind.

Open-world like that is boring in my opinion.

[FellowerOfOdin]

...and just for the record: if you want a game that can be taken seriously with credible characters, go play Mass Effect 2. Those characters were grown-up, credible characters with a (for most parts) interesting personality and you'd think that those guys could actually save the world.

The crew from DA:RtP is a joke compared to them. Homosexual emo elf, jailbait elf responsible for the ruin of her clan, homosexual mass murderer, STD-infected ****...seriously? DA:RtP was a huge let-down character-wise (and in most other parts as well...) and it pales in comparison to Mass Effect 2.

[Aesieru]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

...and just for the record: if you want a game that can be taken seriously with credible characters, go play Mass Effect 2. Those characters were grown-up, credible characters with a (for most parts) interesting personality and you'd think that those guys could actually save the world.

The crew from DA:RtP is a joke compared to them. Homosexual emo elf, jailbait elf responsible for the ruin of her clan, homosexual mass murderer, STD-infected ****...seriously? DA:RtP was a huge let-down character-wise (and in most other parts as well...) and it pales in comparison to Mass Effect 2.

Some of Mass Effect 2 was not good...

I'd rate it a 8... but not a 9.

[Grovermancer]

LOL at the childish, condescending OP.

Taking the various faults and deficiencies of this game...  and pretending you're somehow "mature" if you like that.

LOL,  Yeah.  Sure.  Keep telling yourself that.

[Blacklash93]

jds1bio wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

As for the gameplay, there have been lots of complaints over the oft-used settings where the combat takes place.  Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square.

That's completely true.

In fact, why doesn't Bioware just give us a set party with only a few talents and make the exact same enemies appear for every encounter? That's how chess works too, right?

Actually yes, that is how chess works.  You have a set party, each member has only a certain set of moves, and your enemies are merely a photo negative of your party.  And look at how many strategies, openings, endgames, gambits, etc. have been created over the years from such a simple set.

The videogame that comes closest to chess in these terms is Starcraft.  Except we now record our strategies on Youtube instead of in a book. 

So it's totally been done in a video game, and Bioware could do it also.  And who knows, perhaps they have done this with DA2, but we won't know until we play it for a while, will we?

If we fought the same enemies in the exact same places over and over again, that would get boring.

Same for the environments. DA2 is a videogame meant to entertain and, honestly, romping through the same area again and again with a different name is not entertaining. It's lazy.

[Alex109222]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

This thread should have ended after this post. 

[Blacklash93]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

...and just for the record: if you want a game that can be taken seriously with credible characters, go play Mass Effect 2. Those characters were grown-up, credible characters with a (for most parts) interesting personality and you'd think that those guys could actually save the world.

The crew from DA:RtP is a joke compared to them. Homosexual emo elf, jailbait elf responsible for the ruin of her clan, homosexual mass murderer, STD-infected ****...seriously? DA:RtP was a huge let-down character-wise (and in most other parts as well...) and it pales in comparison to Mass Effect 2.

They're not homosexual. Grow up.

And if you want happy-go-lucky characters with no flaws or shortcomings at all, go play Hello Kitty. There's nothing wrong with characters who make mistakes or have personality flaws. Origins' and ME2's companions were no better in that regard.

BTW, it's called DA2 to make it clear that it is a sequel and not another expansion to Origins.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 18 mars 2011 - 10:13 .

[Blacklash93]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

K12aze wrote...

About the bisexuality how is that immature? Would it be easier to think of it as if your male some charchters are gay and some are not? And if you are playing a female those roles are reversed? I think by allowing people to pursue the LI they want is actually pretty progressive (as well as a time saver as they only needed to have one set of dialogue ready to go) I just fail to see how it makes any impact on the game.

It's not about the fact that there are bisexuals in the game, it's about everyone being bisexual for marketing reasons alone.

jds1bio wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Mature enough for a game with incredibly bland and clichée characters that are all bisexual for marketing reasons alone? A game with more exploding corpses than Unreal Tournament to attract younger players?

If you want to see whether someone is mature enough for a game, you'd need a mature game first.

Which game would you offer as a true test of maturity then?

Not a single game. They are called "games" for a reason.

How are the characters any more typical than what Bioware has ever done? I could just as easily reduce all of Origins' and Mass Effect's followers into simple tropes if I had to.

And the all bi thing is for the gay fans, not for sell out to attract new players. It's fanservice and in case you didn't notice Bioware does this a lot. If you have problem with that, then that's too bad. If them being bi doesn't concern you, then you shouldn't care. It doesn't cheapen what the characters are under their sexuality, unless you're really just that stubborn.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 18 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[jds1bio]

Blacklash93 wrote...

If we fought the same enemies in the exact same places over and over again, that would get boring.

Same for the environments. DA2 is a videogame meant to entertain and, honestly, romping through the same area again and again with a different name is not entertaining. It's lazy.

It might get boring for some, indeed.  It might be boring for you, and it might be boring for me.  But hasn't gotten boring for chess players and it hasn't gotten boring for Starcraft players.  That's all I'm saying.

And as for romping through the same area again and again with a different name, isn't that what we do with RPG's every time we start a new playthrough?

[jds1bio]

Alex109222 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

This thread should have ended after this post. 

This was the response that turned my question on its head the most.  I'd be curious to see what it would look like if someone started a thread asking that question.

[Aesieru]

You're comparing an RPG to an RTS... don't.