260 réponses à ce sujet

[Chewu]

They wrapped up a solid (kind of dark) story inside a childish gameplay. You really can't appreciate the weight of some actions when people around you are chopped to tiny bits.

[Jim_uk]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

I'm not sure you read the OP.

As a group? Probably not, as evidenced by the above post. Individuals rarely exhibit the same qualities as the collective they belong to, however. DAII is the darkest story BioWare's ever done, but KotOR2 was darker still, if for different reasons. You know. Whatevs.

Oh I read it and my point stands, the target audience for the new "features" are those who are too young to buy the game. Those 18+ who are still impressed by exploding enemies and huge breasts on a half naked companion should go away and take a long hard look at themselves. Bioware are pandering to adolescents.

[Aesieru]

Exactly, Jim.

[jds1bio]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I can't place spoilers - but some scenarios felt really powerful when I was under the illusion that my choices had caused them. Then I found out that these events occur no matter what you do.

As for the impact of the subject matter? Yes - I applaud Bioware for trying, but again, they (the plotlines) lost all impact when I found out Bioware was once again trying to tell me a story instead of actual roleplaying. If you think roleplaying is being told a story then come join me at my gaming table.

The issues however aren't any more mature than saving the world.

That's a good point, stories are good but there is still too much illusion and not enough roleplaying and emergent narrative in games.  Like in DAO no matter who ruled Orzammar there was still going to be future troubles for the dwarves.  I think you are suggesting that we are more mature and can talk more than just being handed another "illusion".

[mesmerizedish]

Jim_uk wrote...

Oh I read it and my point stands, the target audience for the new "features" are those who are too young to buy the game. Those 18+ who are still impressed by exploding enemies and huge breasts on a half naked companion should go away and take a long hard look at themselves. Bioware are pandering to adolescents.

Your point is irrelevant, though, because that's not what the OP's talking about, something he expressly states.

[MPSai]

Oh please, character customization is becoming quite the common in aspect games like the action genre, and especially RPGs. Saying it's immature to want equipment variation is just dumb.

The only way to have a game where it's not just good vs evil and you can choose to do bad and vile things is to have a truly blank slate of a character. We're talking about Fallout: New Vegas style. The problem is that doesn't really lend itself to a narrative. You either have to make a complete sandbox with a story only loosely binding events together, or you can have a solid story and have some restrictions on your moral choices.

Modifié par MPSai, 17 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[Aesieru]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

Oh I read it and my point stands, the target audience for the new "features" are those who are too young to buy the game. Those 18+ who are still impressed by exploding enemies and huge breasts on a half naked companion should go away and take a long hard look at themselves. Bioware are pandering to adolescents.

Your point is irrelevant, though, because that's not what the OP's talking about, something he expressly states.

But the improper use of the term is what it is related to, as Maturity is that, not what the OP thinks.

In any case, it's the evolution of the thread, and I support any thread where I can state we are not mature.

[Il Divo]

Aesieru wrote...

I'd say something like "Lost Odyssey' was technically a really mature game because it had a lot of plot, A LOT of writing, even well down script writing (majestic writing similar to poetry), and some darker points...

It required a lot of attention to get through the first parts of that game, but it did well.

I might have to give that a shot. Story is exactly why I became interested in RPGs in the first place. I definitely agree that there are two different definitions of maturity being used. It's ironic because the games which are truly 'mature' might not necessarily be inappropriate for younger audiences, only that they might have difficulty comprehending them.

Just thought of another great example: the Legacy of Kain series. If you want to see vampires done proper, I highly recommend it. It's also surprisingly complex given the premise of the series and makes a good effort to get into the motivations fueling many of the characters. It also has some of the best voice-acting I've ever seen.

[jds1bio]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

Nothing is wrong with any of those things by themselves.  But if you are suggesting that a maturity level be consistent across all aspects of a game, you would not be the first.  Perhaps it is difficult for people to reconcile a mature storyline with a gameplay whose overarching goal is a bloody body count.  I don't know, but I do know that the top award winners of 2010 (ME2, Red Dead Redemption) were guilty of high body counts, and one of them was a "real" setting.

[rob_k]

Actually, I'd second that Legacy of Kain recommendation. I've played all of the games from Soul Reaver 1 onwards and the story's actually quite good along with the writing.

It's not an RPG though.

In fact, Soul Reaver can be bought on the PSN atm in the UK.

[mesmerizedish]

Aesieru wrote...

But the improper use of the term is what it is related to, as Maturity is that, not what the OP thinks.

In any case, it's the evolution of the thread, and I support any thread where I can state we are not mature.

I think the OP uses the term "mature" correctly. It can mean different things. If he said "the M rating has nothing to do with maturity" I'd disagree. But, as far as I can tell, he just said "I'm not interested in the maturity implied by an M rating."

I enjoy Isabela's breasts. They make me jealous, but they're still nice. I also enjoy the story, which is quite mature, and deals with serious, grown-up stuff, like "**** happens and you can't make it better."

[AkiKishi]

jds1bio wrote...
Interesting point.  But the chess pieces are labeled as people of varying degress of importance (king, queen, knight, rook, pawn, etc.).  Why would the creators of chess do this if they saw the board merely as a board, and not a metaphor for something else? 

I'll never get lost in a chess board as if it's a world, but all the same, I could get lost in the gameplay of chess if I was interested enough.

In chess it's the limitations that make the game.

In an RPG it's the exact opposite limitations are bad and should be minimised.

[Aesieru]

Il Divo wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I'd say something like "Lost Odyssey' was technically a really mature game because it had a lot of plot, A LOT of writing, even well down script writing (majestic writing similar to poetry), and some darker points...

It required a lot of attention to get through the first parts of that game, but it did well.

I might have to give that a shot. Story is exactly why I became interested in RPGs in the first place. I definitely agree that there are two different definitions of maturity being used. It's ironic because the games which are truly 'mature' might not necessarily be inappropriate for younger audiences, only that they might have difficulty comprehending them.

Just thought of another great example: the Legacy of Kain series. If you want to see vampires done proper, I highly recommend it. It's also surprisingly complex given the premise of the series and makes a good effort to get into the motivations fueling many of the characters. It also has some of the best voice-acting I've ever seen.

Lost Odyssey is a JRPG for the Xbox 360 which I bought on release day, played for an hour, hated the first "starting mission" and couldn't get past, plus I couldn't tell what store was a shop and what wasn't, but a year later, I played it as I had some time, and after getting past that one hour starting area... I was hooked and played all 4 discs (yes it has 4 discs) for 50 hours + straight.

It had some poor reception because of things, but I liked it... still it had some difficulty balancing and all that and a lot of fights, but the fights were kind of styled differently.

In any case, it's a console rpg so make of that what you will, but I still support it.

---

I played Tales of Vesperia, my first tales game, on the 360 recently too, and while they made an apparently bigger version (30% more content) for the PS3, it was also one of my favorite games too, as it had a good story and fun gameplay.

---

I must confess I haven't played many old-school games or PC rpg's, as I can't get into the old stuff because I've been spoiled with great graphics and it's just my tendencies, but I still like good story and games.

[jds1bio]

Aesieru wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

Oh I read it and my point stands, the target audience for the new "features" are those who are too young to buy the game. Those 18+ who are still impressed by exploding enemies and huge breasts on a half naked companion should go away and take a long hard look at themselves. Bioware are pandering to adolescents.

Your point is irrelevant, though, because that's not what the OP's talking about, something he expressly states.

But the improper use of the term is what it is related to, as Maturity is that, not what the OP thinks.

In any case, it's the evolution of the thread, and I support any thread where I can state we are not mature.

Let's let people have their points without calling their points irrelevant, thanks.

If you've only played the demo, then you would right away conclude the pandering to adolescents.  But there is a story reason for the exaggeration boobs and exploding enemies at the start of the game.

[Il Divo]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't know how much I'd go throwing around "deep" as a positive. Don't get me wrong, it's not a negative either. It's just hard to quantify and can go both ways, so I try to stick to more cut-and-dry descriptors. Torment had the second-best story in any game I've played. BGII was the best. I know some people have it reversed, but most cRPG fans have both in their top two.

I don't mean to imply that depth is all that matters to a game. Ocarina of Time/Kotor are my two favorite games of all time, yet both I would say were not on Planescape's level. Perhaps I was just enamored with Ravel's whole "What can change the nature of a man?" speech.

And I also see the PS:T/BG II combo frequently. At that level, it does come down to preference. Both have left their respective marks in the RPG industry.

[Aesieru]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

But the improper use of the term is what it is related to, as Maturity is that, not what the OP thinks.

In any case, it's the evolution of the thread, and I support any thread where I can state we are not mature.

I think the OP uses the term "mature" correctly. It can mean different things. If he said "the M rating has nothing to do with maturity" I'd disagree. But, as far as I can tell, he just said "I'm not interested in the maturity implied by an M rating."

I enjoy Isabela's breasts. They make me jealous, but they're still nice. I also enjoy the story, which is quite mature, and deals with serious, grown-up stuff, like "**** happens and you can't make it better."

Well, the truth is that the M rating has nothing to do with maturity as it is defined, only as is perceived by juvenility... or immaturity.

So that's a fact whether you like it or not...

In any case, the truly mature stuff is going to be the complex and darker stories or things that have alot of depth to them, having boobs and what not doesn't make something mature, just immature or normal... depending on how it's exaggerated.

[jds1bio]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jds1bio wrote...
Interesting point.  But the chess pieces are labeled as people of varying degress of importance (king, queen, knight, rook, pawn, etc.).  Why would the creators of chess do this if they saw the board merely as a board, and not a metaphor for something else? 

I'll never get lost in a chess board as if it's a world, but all the same, I could get lost in the gameplay of chess if I was interested enough.

In chess it's the limitations that make the game.

In an RPG it's the exact opposite limitations are bad and should be minimised.

But then how would you fare against a real-life Dungeon Master?  That DM is going to put more limitations on you than any computer game.

Modifié par jds1bio, 17 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[rob_k]

Aesieru,

If it helps any, I still find Planescape Torment quite presentable thanks to the art style and such. It can be bought for $10 off GoG.com, plus any currency charge. So, I'd recommend giving that game a try if you haven't.

[GregoriusMaximus]

What a ridiculous thread. If you thought the subject matter of DA2 was emotionally challenging or deep then I feel sorry for you.

[errant_knight]

So if you find the game rather depressing and the reused environments dull, you're immature? Sorry, I reject your hypothesis. A person can want a little more feeling of victory without wanting the plot to be all happy-happy-joy-joy, and the reused areas is obviously the mark of an overly short development timeframe, not an indication of game depth.

[Aesieru]

jds1bio wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

Oh I read it and my point stands, the target audience for the new "features" are those who are too young to buy the game. Those 18+ who are still impressed by exploding enemies and huge breasts on a half naked companion should go away and take a long hard look at themselves. Bioware are pandering to adolescents.

Your point is irrelevant, though, because that's not what the OP's talking about, something he expressly states.

But the improper use of the term is what it is related to, as Maturity is that, not what the OP thinks.

In any case, it's the evolution of the thread, and I support any thread where I can state we are not mature.

Let's let people have their points without calling their points irrelevant, thanks.

If you've only played the demo, then you would right away conclude the pandering to adolescents.  But there is a story reason for the exaggeration boobs and exploding enemies at the start of the game.

Truthfully I'm desensitized to giant boobs and exploding enemies (though I do notice the latter) because it doesn't matter much to me, and I still never saw giant boobs in the exaggerated part and so I'd have to actually LOOK for them to find them, and that's not necessary.

Your point isn't irrelevant, just your term usage coincides more with where I've taken this conversation rather than your intention.

You do have good points, though like I said, it's not the boobs and what not that make this a mature game, only in the ESRB's mind, but not in the mentality or complexity.

DA isn't that complex, but it has potential... DA 2 is not at all, as everything is so linear and one sided.

[mesmerizedish]

Aesieru wrote...

In any case, the truly mature stuff is going to be the complex and darker stories or things that have alot of depth to them, having boobs and what not doesn't make something mature, just immature or normal... depending on how it's exaggerated.

I agree. And I think that DAII does have the complex and dark story with depth, etc. DAII is not all about Isabela's chest (as much as it pains me to admit).

[jds1bio]

MPSai wrote...

Oh please, character customization is becoming quite the common in aspect games like the action genre, and especially RPGs. Saying it's immature to want equipment variation is just dumb.

The only way to have a game where it's not just good vs evil and you can choose to do bad and vile things is to have a truly blank slate of a character. We're talking about Fallout: New Vegas style. The problem is that doesn't really lend itself to a narrative. You either have to make a complete sandbox with a story only loosely binding events together, or you can have a solid story and have some restrictions on your moral choices.

Then what's important in this case is the emergent narrative, the narrative that you create surrounding the sandbox story, the trials and tribulations of a character.

[Carlsbad]

I sincerely hope OP's post is a joke.

[mesmerizedish]

jds1bio wrote...

Let's let people have their points without calling their points irrelevant, thanks.

I didn't mean as it a pejorative, I was just stating that boobs weren't really what the thread was about