260 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jds1bio wrote...
But then how would you fare against a real-life Dungeon Master?  That DM is going to put more limitations on you than any computer game.

Continuing the chess anology. Chess works because certain pieces can do certain things on a limited gameboard.

Now lets transfer that to an RPG, what if your character could only move diagonally ? That would be a bit silly wouldn't it?
Yet it works fine in chess because in chess it's only a game function. Just like the board.

The trick of being a good DM is to let the player do what they want without them being able to "break" your story. It's much easier as a DM because you can adapt in real time. A computer RPG can't do that.

If you transfered DA2 to PnP then any player I've ever played with will want to know what there character was doing for the 3 year time skip while Kirkwall went to hell. And why they could only react once it was too late to change that single outcome.
Without those 3 years that are skipped over DA2 comes acorss as completely forcing you down a pre-set path.

Moving purely diagonally in an RPG, computer or no, is silly.  But as an arbitrary example, some may also think that rolling a 20-sided die to determine a chance of a character persuading a troll to let them cross a bridge is too fine-grained, and should be done with a six-sided die instead.  But using that 20-sided die may be the rules of that game and may work fine within it.

Good points about the DM adapting in real-time, and about the game's pre-set path in time.  The game is indeed making a decision on which years of the Champion's life are more interesting to the gamer, without giving the chance for the gamer to decide for him/herself through roleplaying.

Modifié par jds1bio, 17 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[AkiKishi]

Aesieru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KOTOR, I had an idea but I was surprised the first time... not the 15 times after, lol.

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

Well, Obsidian admits they never even played KoTOR before they made KoTOR II...

Have you ever googled KOTOR II cut content?

[ronaldmonster]

If you think Dragon Age 2 is "Mature" then I feel sorry for you. There are plenty of true mature games out there and Dragon Age 2 is far from being one of them.

[Aesieru]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KOTOR, I had an idea but I was surprised the first time... not the 15 times after, lol.

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

Well, Obsidian admits they never even played KoTOR before they made KoTOR II...

Have you ever googled KOTOR II cut content?

I have it all, they made that Sith Reborn Mod, or whatever it was called TLS something, and it added most of it but the Droid Planet.

One of the few times I'd say a mod was integral to the game.

And it took 4 years...

Modifié par Aesieru, 17 mars 2011 - 06:18 .

[hobbit of the shire]

The gaming industry is at a point where there is a wide range of players, in age and in gender. And games need to be designed to satisfy all these groups. Whether it is possible to satisfy all demographics with a single game will be a challenging task. Take a lot of the cartoons today.... Up, Shrek.... these movies have a lot of content for kids and a ton of dialogue, connotations to things on the adults are going to understand. The result is a movie that both kids and adults like. Is it possible to do that with a game? Sure. Has any game been successful with that yet? I think it remains to be seen. I think the gaming industry knows that the demographic of gamers is changing and are attempting more "mature" games. However, they are still always thinking of bottom-line and the largest demographic (teen boys and young men) and so games are designed more for them.

In movies, the biggest sellers are the things that blow up, kill or are sexy, not necessarily something that has a plot like a good classic novel. Yes, there are excellent movies full of plot and intrigue with nary a special effect. But what sells more? So, it's a matter of designing a game that will attract the interest of a large demographic or designing one for each group. However, if the latter is chosen, I think $$$$ is going to trump over all decisions, meaning the more "mature" or female demographic will likely be ignored.

[Il Divo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

Had Obsidian been able to fully realize Kotor 2, I would probably have a very different top five games list.

I don't want this thread to die, I had some interest in it and it's a good distraction, plus I got a few game suggestions, though I'm not sure about the Legacy of Kain thing, I might try Planescape.

Definitely go with Planescape: Torment. Legacy of Kain may be somewhat difficult to find these days, depending on what platform you're looking. Soul Reaver II will also either leave you banging your head on a desk or screaming for more. It's still a good series either way, but PS:T is likely more accessible.

[AkiKishi]

jds1bio wrote...
Moving purely diagonally in an RPG, computer or no, is silly.  But as an arbitrary example, some may also think that rolling a 20-sided die to determine a chance of a character persuading a troll to let them cross a bridge is too fine-grained, and should be done with a six-sided die instead.  But using that 20-sided die may be the rules of that game and may work fine within it.

Good points about the DM adapting in real-time, and about the game's pre-set path in time.  The game is indeed making a decision on which years of the Champion's life are more interesting to the gamer, without giving the chance for the gamer to decide for him/herself through roleplaying.

That's simply down to odds. What is the chance a troll will catch you ? If it's 50% then 1-3,1-10,1-50 all the same just the dice is different.

I think the game would have been better without the time skips. It's pretty clear having played the whole 10 year time span thing was just marketing jargon.

[ronaldmonster]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KOTOR, I had an idea but I was surprised the first time... not the 15 times after, lol.

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

I love this post so damn much.

[Templar_Blademaster]

jds1bio wrote...

GregoriusMaximus wrote...

What a ridiculous thread. If you thought the subject matter of DA2 was emotionally challenging or deep then I feel sorry for you.

Your pity is noted.  Thanks for your opinion.  Can you offer up a game that is more emotionally challenging or deep than DA2?

I could honestly say Dead Space 2 by your logic. Since I have had none of your experiences I can not relate to the characters or scenarios in DA2 as much.

However, I do have a loved one, and in Dead Space 2 around chapter 10 when Isaac's dementia story comes to a climax I nearly teared up. The thought of losing a loved one and having to deal with that loss was deep and emotionally challenging to me.

To each his own, just because you thought DA2 was emotionally deep and Gregorius didn't does not mean either of you are wrong, just different tastes. Same goes to you Gregorius, you may not have been able to relate but he sure did.

[Il Divo]

Aesieru wrote...

I was more indicating the Templar vs Mage thing was a bit more mature, even in the journal entries, in the Dragon Age: Origins game, as opposed to Dragon Age 2.

I thought a few of the ideas were darker, but there was always the over-arching "ultimate good" option, like with the ability to sidestep the sacrifice for the kid's survival in Redcliffe, which meant you had to go to another main-quest area and stay along a certain line, or the werewolves.

Could you elaborate on the second-half of your post? I'm a bit confused by the description of the ultimate good option. Are you saying that good options in DA:O added to the complexity? Apologies.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[Aesieru]

Templar_Blademaster wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

GregoriusMaximus wrote...

What a ridiculous thread. If you thought the subject matter of DA2 was emotionally challenging or deep then I feel sorry for you.

Your pity is noted.  Thanks for your opinion.  Can you offer up a game that is more emotionally challenging or deep than DA2?

I could honestly say Dead Space 2 by your logic. Since I have had none of your experiences I can not relate to the characters or scenarios in DA2 as much.

However, I do have a loved one, and in Dead Space 2 around chapter 10 when Isaac's dementia story comes to a climax I nearly teared up. The thought of losing a loved one and having to deal with that loss was deep and emotionally challenging to me.

To each his own, just because you thought DA2 was emotionally deep and Gregorius didn't does not mean either of you are wrong, just different tastes. Same goes to you Gregorius, you may not have been able to relate but he sure did.

After I finished Dead Space 2 I moved on to the next thing, nothing kept me in that game and the balancing was getting tedious by the end... and then it was just a story that of course had no real end.

[jds1bio]

Carlsbad wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Please use your own words or leave the thread, thanks.

I'd tell you that you're a philistine and you need to get cultured, but I'm afraid that if Dragon Age's ****** poor story is capable of moving you emotionally, something like Citizen Kane or Taxi Driver will make you want to kill yourself.

Philistine: dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine
a person who is lacking in or hostile or smugly indifferent to cultural values, intellectual pursuits, aesthetic refinement, etc., or is contentedly commonplace in ideas and tastes.

Thank you so much for the compliment, you've nailed it right on the head.  And a better movie example would have been Revolutionary Road.  But this isn't about me, so let's keep the thread on topic, thanks.

[mesmerizedish]

Aesieru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KOTOR, I had an idea but I was surprised the first time... not the 15 times after, lol.

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

Well, Obsidian admits they never even played KoTOR before they made KoTOR II...

What's your point? (I'm not being snippy, I'm really curious )

I absolutely loved KotOR2. It had one of the darkest stories I've ever experienced, and I enjoyed it immensely. What made it really great was that it didn't do this with moral greys and silly dilemmas like whether or not to execute Loghain. It did this by making the villains absolutely irredeemably evil.

I don't mean the absurd kind of evil that you usually get with black & white games. I don't even mean the kind of preternatural evil that the Archdemon represents. I mean the deepest, blackest evil that exists in the human soul, the kind of villains that you peer into and come out feeling a little colder, a little deader. What's so horrifying is that these aren't demons or darkspawn that are evil by their nature. These are people who have become blacker than any demon or devil, and they've done it with their own power.

That's why I love KotOR2. Because you're presented with the most terrifying face of evil: your own.

[GregoriusMaximus]

Just lawl @ this thread.

Oh,... it was... *sniff* so... emotional when... Anders... (damn no spoilers) the Chantry... *weep*... It made... so much sense... and the fact that (damn no spoilers) was insane... i just... i just didn't see that coming! *LE CRY*

[Carlsbad]

[quote]jds1bio wrote...

And a better movie example would have been Revolutionary Road.[ /quote]

HAHHAHAHAHHAHA OH GOD NOW I REALLY HOPE YOU'RE JOKING

also

Philistinism is a derogatory term used to describe a particular attitude or set of values. A person called a Philistine (in the relevant sense) is said to despise or undervalue art, beauty, intellectualcontent, or spiritual values. Philistines are also said to be materialistic, to favor conventional social values unthinkingly, and to favor forms of art that have a cheap and easy appeal (e.g. kitsch).

Modifié par Carlsbad, 17 mars 2011 - 06:29 .

[jds1bio]

Templar_Blademaster wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

GregoriusMaximus wrote...

What a ridiculous thread. If you thought the subject matter of DA2 was emotionally challenging or deep then I feel sorry for you.

Your pity is noted.  Thanks for your opinion.  Can you offer up a game that is more emotionally challenging or deep than DA2?

I could honestly say Dead Space 2 by your logic. Since I have had none of your experiences I can not relate to the characters or scenarios in DA2 as much.

However, I do have a loved one, and in Dead Space 2 around chapter 10 when Isaac's dementia story comes to a climax I nearly teared up. The thought of losing a loved one and having to deal with that loss was deep and emotionally challenging to me.

To each his own, just because you thought DA2 was emotionally deep and Gregorius didn't does not mean either of you are wrong, just different tastes. Same goes to you Gregorius, you may not have been able to relate but he sure did.

I haven't played Dead Space 2 yet, but the first one only flirted with Isaac possibly suffering from dementia.  Dead Space Extraction took this a bit further, especially in its opening chapter.  Good call, Templar.

[Il Divo]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
What's your point? (I'm not being snippy, I'm really curious )

I absolutely loved KotOR2. It had one of the darkest stories I've ever experienced, and I enjoyed it immensely. What made it really great was that it didn't do this with moral greys and silly dilemmas like whether or not to execute Loghain. It did this by making the villains absolutely irredeemably evil.

I don't mean the absurd kind of evil that you usually get with black & white games. I don't even mean the kind of preternatural evil that the Archdemon represents. I mean the deepest, blackest evil that exists in the human soul, the kind of villains that you peer into and come out feeling a little colder, a little deader. What's so horrifying is that these aren't demons or darkspawn that are evil by their nature. These are people who have become blacker than any demon or devil, and they've done it with their own power.

That's why I love KotOR2. Because you're presented with the most terrifying face of evil: your own.

This. And Kreia happens to have some of the best lines of any npcs I've encountered.

[Aesieru]

Il Divo wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I was more indicating the Templar vs Mage thing was a bit more mature, even in the journal entries, in the Dragon Age: Origins game, as opposed to Dragon Age 2.

I thought a few of the ideas were darker, but there was always the over-arching "ultimate good" option, like with the ability to sidestep the sacrifice for the kid's survival in Redcliffe, which meant you had to go to another main-quest area and stay along a certain line, or the werewolves.

Could you elaborate on the second-half of your post? I'm a bit confused by the description of the ultimate good option. Are you saying that good options in DA:O added to the complexity? Apologies.

Ultimate good is essentially you save everyone.

I always try to do that but it's not all that realistic and while I'd be angry I couldn't save everyone (boom boom explode mentality of our generation coming back into play) I'd also think a lot more seriously about it if I couldn't... some times I even read spoilers or strategy guides just so I know I can make that "ultimate good" option.

I classify things as this:

Ultimate good - everything has the best possible good ending.

Best choices - every choice is the best for the world you're in; example being that Bhelen rules the Dwarves, but he's not "Ultimate Good", but he's the better choice in a stability and story sense.

Evil - being an evil person simply for your own sake and choices reflect that.

Good - choices ended up in a relatively good state and you did the best you could for each action but some people may have died in the end... the good "choice" usually has some sacrifice.

Basic - things happened and they worked in the end somehow... and the big quest was completed.

---

Those are the mindsets I see in games and the choices usually reflect those.

If the ultimate good option was removed... well then I would be somewhat upset but probably have to do a lot more long-term thinking.

The ultimate good occurs because you can save everyone, pretty much.

The werewolves and redcliffe kid are prime examples of that.

[EccentricSage]

Am I mature enough for the subject matter in this game? Yes.
Am I foolish enough to knowingly pay $60 or more for a poorly constructed and very obviously rushed product because I'm interested in the subject matter? No. 

There are books.  Books are cheaper, and my imagination is better than the art and animation in this game.  Maybe I'll get the game when it gets discounted, or maybe I'll get a re-release later that includes all DLC IF they bother to fix all the issues people are having with the gameplay and bugged dialogue.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 17 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[October Sixth]

If players need to experience a loss in their own lives to connect with the characters then the story and/or characters are poorly written. It's great that the game felt deep to you, but it has nothing to do with maturity.

[jds1bio]

ronaldmonster wrote...

If you think Dragon Age 2 is "Mature" then I feel sorry for you. There are plenty of true mature games out there and Dragon Age 2 is far from being one of them.

Example?

[yellow cake]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

The gaming industry is at a point where there is a wide range of players, in age and in gender. And games need to be designed to satisfy all these groups. Whether it is possible to satisfy all demographics with a single game will be a challenging task. Take a lot of the cartoons today.... Up, Shrek.... these movies have a lot of content for kids and a ton of dialogue, connotations to things on the adults are going to understand. The result is a movie that both kids and adults like. Is it possible to do that with a game? Sure. Has any game been successful with that yet? I think it remains to be seen. I think the gaming industry knows that the demographic of gamers is changing and are attempting more "mature" games. However, they are still always thinking of bottom-line and the largest demographic (teen boys and young men) and so games are designed more for them.

In movies, the biggest sellers are the things that blow up, kill or are sexy, not necessarily something that has a plot like a good classic novel. Yes, there are excellent movies full of plot and intrigue with nary a special effect. But what sells more? So, it's a matter of designing a game that will attract the interest of a large demographic or designing one for each group. However, if the latter is chosen, I think $$$$ is going to trump over all decisions, meaning the more "mature" or female demographic will likely be ignored.

agree....i don't think you can sastify everyone with a game and money will out weigh loyalist but it doesn't mean it needs to be executed cheaply. the repeated areas is my main concern. they didn't even change the map they just blocked off an area with a door you can't open but it still shows you can go that way on the map...to me that was like a we don't care thrown into the game. anything else to me is a you liked it or you don't concern., but it came across to me that it was like an f u in the face. a statment was made stating that it was to put in more gameplay but DA:2 is a shorter game by nearly half. (based off a test run i did of both games doing ALL quest)



super mario rpg > all

[Aesieru]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KOTOR, I had an idea but I was surprised the first time... not the 15 times after, lol.

I only played once. I really wish Obsidian had been able to complete KOTORII as they wanted. It's one of the great unknowns in RPG history.

Well, Obsidian admits they never even played KoTOR before they made KoTOR II...

What's your point? (I'm not being snippy, I'm really curious )

I absolutely loved KotOR2. It had one of the darkest stories I've ever experienced, and I enjoyed it immensely. What made it really great was that it didn't do this with moral greys and silly dilemmas like whether or not to execute Loghain. It did this by making the villains absolutely irredeemably evil.

I don't mean the absurd kind of evil that you usually get with black & white games. I don't even mean the kind of preternatural evil that the Archdemon represents. I mean the deepest, blackest evil that exists in the human soul, the kind of villains that you peer into and come out feeling a little colder, a little deader. What's so horrifying is that these aren't demons or darkspawn that are evil by their nature. These are people who have become blacker than any demon or devil, and they've done it with their own power.

That's why I love KotOR2. Because you're presented with the most terrifying face of evil: your own.

If they'd actually taken the time to play KoTOR (which seriously at least ONE OF THEM could have played it during development of KoTOR 2) they probably would have had a more related story and possibly better.

I saw Kreia as evil, but never really your character.

[jds1bio]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's simply down to odds. What is the chance a troll will catch you ? If it's 50% then 1-3,1-10,1-50 all the same just the dice is different.

I think the game would have been better without the time skips. It's pretty clear having played the whole 10 year time span thing was just marketing jargon.

I agree about the played-up marketing jargon.

[yellow cake]

jds1bio wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Please use your own words or leave the thread, thanks.

I'd tell you that you're a philistine and you need to get cultured, but I'm afraid that if Dragon Age's ****** poor story is capable of moving you emotionally, something like Citizen Kane or Taxi Driver will make you want to kill yourself.

Philistine: dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine
a person who is lacking in or hostile or smugly indifferent to cultural values, intellectual pursuits, aesthetic refinement, etc., or is contentedly commonplace in ideas and tastes.

Thank you so much for the compliment, you've nailed it right on the head.  And a better movie example would have been Revolutionary Road.  But this isn't about me, so let's keep the thread on topic, thanks.

lol...burn