260 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

Pedrak wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

"Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square."

Except that the pleasure of chess comes from its tactical core, which allows for both creativity and rigorous logic to be used - and any chess player who sees his adversary's pawns pop up of nowhere on the board is going to be rather annoyed.

I'm no chess grandmaster, and I've won a game or two of chess in my time, but I've also seen chess pieces come out of nowhere and check or checkmate me.  And I was annoyed, especially because they were right in front of me the entire time.

Sorry, but that doesn't really work.  If you don't see the pieces in a chess game, you've made a tactical mistake. If you don't see them in a video game because a (IMHO awful) design choice of the combat is making them spawn out of thin air, it's another matter altogether.

That I get.  I'm just saying that a chess player could end up just as annoyed at chess as someone is at DA2 for the same perceived reason, but with different root causes.

[TJSolo]

Aesieru wrote...

No one really wants you in this thread, just go somewhere else please.

I do. It has been his posts that have been keeping me interested in reading this thread, and up until this point satisfied enough not to comment.

 P.S
It is "le sigh".

Modifié par TJSolo, 17 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[17thknight]

Carlsbad wrote...

Yeah, nope. I'd much rather it do something like this:

That's how you do ****ing backstory.

Not entirely fair to use one of the greatest scenes in movie history to a rush-job game.

[Carlsbad]

jds1bio wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

And second, if a response can be summed up in three words, then yes, the dialogue might as well be as utilitarian as a simple three word response.

Unless it reveals something interesting about a character, or something that we didn't know before.

Ooh, another scene where someone stands four paces from you and spits a few lines of backstory. Fascinating.

Yeah, nope. I'd much rather it do something like this:

That's how you do ****ing backstory.

Well, we agree, backstory isn't always interesting, but other things could be.

Yeah, it's not always interesting. What I want to see next time from Bioware is for them to TRY, because if you don't try, the audience cannot have even a chance to engage. No matter what your perceived "maturity level" of them is.

[Carlsbad]

17thknight wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

Yeah, nope. I'd much rather it do something like this:

That's how you do ****ing backstory.

Not entirely fair to use one of the greatest scenes in movie history to a rush-job game.

Well I have to put it bluntly or else I can't get my point across on these freakin boards.

[17thknight]

Carlsbad wrote...

17thknight wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

Yeah, nope. I'd much rather it do something like this:

That's how you do ****ing backstory.

Not entirely fair to use one of the greatest scenes in movie history to a rush-job game.

Well I have to put it bluntly or else I can't get my point across on these freakin boards.

True. It's amazing how good the storytelling and acting are there. Without even words you can see an entire history, a lifetime of unrequited justice, a haunted memory, tension, catharsis, goddamn that's a great film.

[Carlsbad]

I KNOW RIGHT! AUGH I MUST CHECK MY SCHEDULE, WHEN WILL I HAVE FOUR HOURS FREE TO WATCH IT AGAIN

Modifié par Carlsbad, 17 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[jds1bio]

ronaldmonster wrote...

You're possibly the most clever troll I've ever seen- great job!

I'm sorry but the writing here is absolutely ****** poor and more than half the dialog and cut-scenes had me in tears. How anyone could walk away with the impression of this being anything else than a ****** poor hack and slash and even worse dialog is beyond me.

Remember when Aveline stabbed her husband in the start of the game? Remember when there was no blood, his armor was still intact and the camera panned out while every one walked away? That was so horrendous that I called my roomate over to watch it while we laughed our asses off.

That is the most backhanded compliment I've ever received, thank you? 

Remember the "love" scenes in DA:O?    Remember that there was no actual body curves, just a series of straight lines connected together to simulate curves?  Remember that there was no actual love? 

All creative works require a certain suspension of disbelief.  And perhaps video games still require more work on our part than books or movies.

[AtreiyaN7]

I find your points interesting because things like being betrayed do hit home, and the game was much darker, especially in terms of personal relationships. I find the chess analogy to be apt in relation to the combat, as I've had the same battle play out in different ways just based on small changes.

Regarding the setting, the hero resides in one city because the story is about events that take place there and is more intimate in scope. I'm perfectly fine with the city itself not changing in substantially over a decade or having major locations not changing. I've lived in Hawaii for all my life, and I sure as heck haven't suddenly started hating it because I've seen the same places over and over again all my life. When it comes to interior maps and so forth, they should have worked on creating more unique environments - and they probably should have thrown in more world locations in Kirkwall for the sake of variety.

As to whether or not gamers are mature enough to appreciate DA2, some will be, and some won't. I, for one, found it satisfying because the payoff lies in reshaping the world of Thedas and because my hero played a major historic role. Some people might be more comfortable with the usual cookie-cutter plots from previous games. For example, they may enjoy the whole collecting the Star Map/facing down Darth Malak thing more than dealing with a heavily political storyline. Just replace "collecting the Star Map" with "collecting armies" and replace "Darth Malak" with "Archdemon" and you essentially have DA:O. There may not be the standard Big Bad at the end of DA2, but it's as significant (or possibly more so) than DA:O was in my opinion from the perspective of its impact on Thedas (not that stopping a Blight and dealing with the Architect was small potatoes).

[jds1bio]

17thknight wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

17thknight wrote...

Carlsbad wrote...

Yeah, nope. I'd much rather it do something like this:

That's how you do ****ing backstory.

Not entirely fair to use one of the greatest scenes in movie history to a rush-job game.

Well I have to put it bluntly or else I can't get my point across on these freakin boards.

True. It's amazing how good the storytelling and acting are there. Without even words you can see an entire history, a lifetime of unrequited justice, a haunted memory, tension, catharsis, goddamn that's a great film.

No question, videogames have a ways to go in this regard.  But you have to be open to giving them a chance of having them.

[Falseprophecy]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I can't place spoilers - but some scenarios felt really powerful when I was under the illusion that my choices had caused them. Then I found out that these events occur no matter what you do.

As for the impact of the subject matter? Yes - I applaud Bioware for trying, but again, they (the plotlines) lost all impact when I found out Bioware was once again trying to tell me a story instead of actual roleplaying. If you think roleplaying is being told a story then come join me at my gaming table.

Were we playing the same game? Because in DA2:

• My companions occasionally engaged in 3-way banter, unlike the exclusive 2-way in DA:O. They even got into arguments during quest dialogue.
  
• Characters were able to emote through gestures and body language in a very natural way, unlike DA:O where they all stare off into space.
  
• In certain conversations I could tap a companion, who could directly contribute to it, whether it was Varric's bluffing, Bethany's "I'm an apostate and a good person" speech, or Aveline's "gentle" persuasions. In DA:O and Mass Effect, companions would just complain or offer snarky commentary from the sidelines.
  
• Hawke's personality actually changed and crystalized based on the type of responses I preferred, and NPCs would actually comment on this. The Warden in DA:O could glare into space, fold his/her arms, and kick in doors. You could act like a total bastard in Lothering and like a saint in Redcliffe, and no one would care whatsoever.

I'm extremely perturbed by all the roll-players' complaints when this game is one of the closest to actual role-playing I've ever seen in a cRPG.

[K12aze]

When it comes to the maturity issue I'd have to point the pirate. If you don't take her in your party and her some of her interactions especially with the more naive companions who show some hero worship that she deflects or actually listen to her dialogue instead of speeding through it to get her in the sack. She is so emotionally broken that it breaks my heart. Ever confident (almost to a fault) in her beauty and skills but feels as though she has no worth as a person and thus behinds behind her looks and sharp tounge.

[17thknight]

jds1bio wrote...

No question, videogames have a ways to go in this regard.  But you have to be open to giving them a chance of having them.

I'm completely open to it, I just don't think DA2 did it that well.

Part of the problem in games is that EVERYTHING has to be done with words and dialogue because facial expressions are incapable of being as evocative as a real person's. The closer they get, the more they skirt the 'uncanny valley'. Yet without going there, the characters look a little too wooden and have to be overly-expressive to get their points across.

That places a, perhaps undo, burden upon dialogue and exposition, but I still just don't think that DA2 has the chops for the writing to be called mature. I don't have a whole lot against the writing in the game (a lot of it's obviously rushed, and could've used a few rewrites, but not bad at all for the time they had), but you're the one accusing people of not having the maturity to appreciate the game, not I.

[Carlsbad]

jds1bio wrote...

ronaldmonster wrote...

You're possibly the most clever troll I've ever seen- great job!

I'm sorry but the writing here is absolutely ****** poor and more than half the dialog and cut-scenes had me in tears. How anyone could walk away with the impression of this being anything else than a ****** poor hack and slash and even worse dialog is beyond me.

Remember when Aveline stabbed her husband in the start of the game? Remember when there was no blood, his armor was still intact and the camera panned out while every one walked away? That was so horrendous that I called my roomate over to watch it while we laughed our asses off.

That is the most backhanded compliment I've ever received, thank you? 

Remember the "love" scenes in DA:O?    Remember that there was no actual body curves, just a series of straight lines connected together to simulate curves?  Remember that there was no actual love? 

All creative works require a certain suspension of disbelief.  And perhaps video games still require more work on our part than books or movies.

It's not a matter of suspension of disbelief, it's that the scene doesn't work.


In the first scene of Double Indemnity, Walter Neff's gunshot wound on his shoulder is visible, but it's literally a but of dye on top of his completely unscathed jacket. But he acts shot. And the camera doesn't make any retarded pans.

****, in the Once Upon A Time in the West scene I Just posted, the gunshot on Henry Fonda's shirt is just this silly fringing, but Sergio knows exactly what to do with the camera and Henry knows exactly how to act. With a videogame it could be argued that with MORE control over the scene, the results would be better. Instead it was rushed and it looks rushed.

Modifié par Carlsbad, 17 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Glorfindel709]

DA:2 for me had some very touching moments. Act 2 in itself removed me from my rut of "I dont like this game" to "Wow.... just wow Bioware. Thank you." Especially in regards to the serial killer. I wish I could have explored the rivalry with Carver more but you all know how that went *shrugs*. I thought personal relationships were done well when you could actually interact with them, but I would have preferred a more Origins-esque ability to converse with my companions whenever I wished to rather than having to wait on Companion quests or specific cutscenes.

Then we got to act 3 -- to say that DA2 didn't have a standard Big Bad is so clearly false that it defies description. The Guardians, the Devil May Cry style jump 100 feet into the air and landing without any wounds but cracking the tiled floor... ugh. The Finale in DA2 was terrible and left me feeling in the realm of "Why did I even bother?" The entire writing of Act 3s main plot felt shallow and was made moot by the actual in game encounters. "Not every M is an evil psychopathic murderer!!" but every M you encounter with perhaps one or two exceptions was an evil psychopathic murderous bastard.

I'm going to do one more playthrough where I'm not going to side with the Ms but the Ts and see what happens.... but I don't have much hope.

[Carlsbad]

17thknight wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

No question, videogames have a ways to go in this regard.  But you have to be open to giving them a chance of having them.

I'm completely open to it, I just don't think DA2 did it that well.

Part of the problem in games is that EVERYTHING has to be done with words and dialogue because facial expressions are incapable of being as evocative as a real person's. The closer they get, the more they skirt the 'uncanny valley'. Yet without going there, the characters look a little too wooden and have to be overly-expressive to get their points across.

That places a, perhaps undo, burden upon dialogue and exposition, but I still just don't think that DA2 has the chops for the writing to be called mature. I don't have a whole lot against the writing in the game (a lot of it's obviously rushed, and could've used a few rewrites, but not bad at all for the time they had), but you're the one accusing people of not having the maturity to appreciate the game, not I.

Acting is more body language than anything. It's disgraceful that no attention is given to body animation in these types of dialogue-heavy RPGs. Instead everyone stands with both feet planted on the ground and waves their arms around in emotionally neutral fashions.

[17thknight]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
"Not every M is an evil psychopathic murderer!!" but every M you encounter with perhaps one or two exceptions was an evil psychopathic murderous bastard.

That still boggles my mind about the game. The whole point is trying to show how all the mages aren't bad, the templars are too strict, etc. Yet...the mages in the game basically just consistently prove that the Templars are right tiem and time again.

(Even Merrill in the Fade, and especially Anders for reasons you likely already know)

Anders just makes no sense. "Hey, if they'd all stop being blood mages, we'd have more credibility in being good guys!" And then that same retard does that one thing that we all know. Pretty much proving the Templars right.

[Glorfindel709]

The Beauty of Bioware writing in past games is that they've always made the final choice ambiguious - there is no exclusively wrong or right answer to what you do... DA2 seemingly removed the ambiguity and just went "Herp derp you're screwed either way!!"

Anders and Orisino were all effing ridiculous.

[dragon_83]

Troll:

What is mature? (From Captain Shrek)
RPG Codex:

RPG codexer: I like games made for mature audience?
Noob: Lol! What does that mean?
RPG codexer: You know games with Philosophical implications, take for example this question: "What can change the nature of a man?"

OTHERS:

Others: I want Mature games.
RPG codexer: What does that mean?
Others: You know where you can romance anybody, gay porn is usual and where you can kill everyone or kill everyone (Gigglesqee!).
Rpg Codexer: That's why I am an Old school Guy I guess.
Others: Oh you Old fashioned NERDS!!!

/troll

[Aesieru]

I don't understand the language of today's slang generation... and that's a good thing.

[ronaldmonster]

jds1bio wrote...

ronaldmonster wrote...

You're possibly the most clever troll I've ever seen- great job!

I'm sorry but the writing here is absolutely ****** poor and more than half the dialog and cut-scenes had me in tears. How anyone could walk away with the impression of this being anything else than a ****** poor hack and slash and even worse dialog is beyond me.

Remember when Aveline stabbed her husband in the start of the game? Remember when there was no blood, his armor was still intact and the camera panned out while every one walked away? That was so horrendous that I called my roomate over to watch it while we laughed our asses off.

That is the most backhanded compliment I've ever received, thank you? 

Remember the "love" scenes in DA:O?    Remember that there was no actual body curves, just a series of straight lines connected together to simulate curves?  Remember that there was no actual love? 

All creative works require a certain suspension of disbelief.  And perhaps video games still require more work on our part than books or movies.

Yeah, I sure do remember and I did laugh at all of those too.

[jds1bio]

Carlsbad wrote...

17thknight wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

No question, videogames have a ways to go in this regard.  But you have to be open to giving them a chance of having them.

I'm completely open to it, I just don't think DA2 did it that well.

Part of the problem in games is that EVERYTHING has to be done with words and dialogue because facial expressions are incapable of being as evocative as a real person's. The closer they get, the more they skirt the 'uncanny valley'. Yet without going there, the characters look a little too wooden and have to be overly-expressive to get their points across.

That places a, perhaps undo, burden upon dialogue and exposition, but I still just don't think that DA2 has the chops for the writing to be called mature. I don't have a whole lot against the writing in the game (a lot of it's obviously rushed, and could've used a few rewrites, but not bad at all for the time they had), but you're the one accusing people of not having the maturity to appreciate the game, not I.

Acting is more body language than anything. It's disgraceful that no attention is given to body animation in these types of dialogue-heavy RPGs. Instead everyone stands with both feet planted on the ground and waves their arms around in emotionally neutral fashions.

You guys are on to something.  The storytelling and the animated side of video game acting don't seem to be as mature as other, more mature creative forms like movies.  In another thread I posed how the movie Mars Needs Moms is way more of a commercial failure than DA2 would ever be.  That movie completely tanked at the box office (cost $175 million in marketing and production, only took in $9 million the opening week).  And the speculation is that Hollywood's CGI movie business could be set back years because of this.

But the point is that computer-generated storytelling in general, whether games or movies, has not reached par with mature human dramas, this is true.  You guys are asking that the production of games rise to that same level of maturity.  I'd like to see that happen.  But I'm questioning whether gamers are willing to take on the mature aspects that are already in the game, beyond the animation, beyond the constraints of gameplay. 

After all, why should they produce games at that maturity level when gamers won't be there to meet them when the games are released?

[Carlsbad]

The word isn't "maturity." Use something like "effective" instead.

If what you're saying has to do with the audience the work attracts, it is still a videogame and as a medium it still very much belongs to the youth. That's unavoidable. Judge it by what it's trying to be, not by what you think it should be. You can't shoehorn games in with other things that include high art. These kinds of games with a stiff, underdeveloped story and that aim for the lowest common denominator are a result of that kind of thinking,

Modifié par Carlsbad, 17 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[this isnt my name]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

/thread.

[moilami]

I try to be durrgon enough for DA2.