82 réponses à ce sujet

[apantoliani]

From what I can tell, Meredith was already a hot minute from doing the Rite of Annulment anyway, and even if she didn't, it sounded like the Divine was going to march on Kirkwall regardless. Anders was pretty much fanning flames that were already there, kick starting what likely would have ultimately happened.

That or the mages would just die off one by one as things like the Tranquil Solution become more and more popular. Sure it was denied now, but there is always later.

Still want a ****-slap mod though. FemHawke must keep her pimp hand strong, as someone else said. Make it available for... just about every NPC ever.

"Get your own meal ticket."
*pimpslap* "TAKE ME TO THE DEEP ROADS OR I'LL END YOU."

Straight skip gathering the 50g.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

SgtElias wrote...

I'd probably use a "slap Anders upside his head" mod. And this coming from someone that really genuinely likes the guy!

I was, I will admit, slightly disappointed I didn't have the option of hitting him, or grabbing him by his robes and shaking him during the whole end-game sequence. After trying over and over again to keep some modicum of peace between the templars and mages all friggin' game, he goes and pulls that ridiculousness. I was especially displeased because it cost me Sebastian, who I had rather come to like.

However, I suppose it's a moot point anyway, because no matter how I might have wanted to react (say, for instance, by punching him in his Anders face), I would never have killed him. Mofo shares my bed for 3+ years? Yeah, not killing him. Sigh.

That doesn't mean a mod to smack him wouldn't be appreciated.

I love that the first time you can flirt with him Hawke comments saying she loves a man with a troubled past.

Famous last words..

[In Exile]

Danjaru wrote...

I don't get this Anders hate, he did something desperate and extreme to try and free the heavily oppressed mages. He did it cause he saw that there was no compromise and if he didn't the madness of Meredith would be the end for the mages in Kirkwall.

There was compromise, though. That's why he did it: to remove the option. It was either genocide by the templars or open war. That's what he wanted.

I think people mostly hate him cause he did something that was out of their control. I mean up untill that point your hawke killed up to a thousand people. But someone else does something out of your control, you hate that person. (although I do agree that he whined a little too much... He felt like the stereotypical incredibly racially sensetive foreign person used in some movies, I think he even used the phrase "It's cause I'm a mage isn't it?").

Hawke never had to kill innocent people, though. You could play a Hawke who only fights to protect him/herself.

[SgtElias]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I love that the first time you can flirt with him Hawke comments saying she loves a man with a troubled past.

Famous last words..

I should really have taken his warnings more seriously. <_<

Still would have romanced him, though. And still would have sided with the mages. Sigh.

[TysonL87]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I want to punch Anders, he will never shut up about the mages being oppressed, thank god I got rid of him.

Amen, I would have stab him twice if the option was there.

[Lady Danger]

I want a 'Kill Sebastian' mod.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

SgtElias wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I love that the first time you can flirt with him Hawke comments saying she loves a man with a troubled past.

Famous last words..

I should really have taken his warnings more seriously. <_<

Still would have romanced him, though. And still would have sided with the mages. Sigh.

Sebastian and Varric both warn you as well. It's like everyone but you knew he was going to stab you in the back.

[Annarl]

MrDizaztar wrote...

I was seriously hoping for a Rene...I mean Rivalry Interrupt!

That would be ...great:O.  Make it happen Bioware:lol:

[Camenae]

I think he's a douchebag for even asking you to do the Act III companion quest for him. If you cared about someone at all, would you TRICK them into helping you with your terrorist activities, to gather supplies to make a bomb and then to distract the intended victim so he can plant the bomb??? That is EVIL. I would do that to my worst enemy if I wanted them to suffer from their conscience for life, not to someone I claim to love.

If he doesn't want to tell Hawke about his plot, fine. But he should either come out and say, this is what I'm going to do, you decide if you want to help. Or, if he really wanted to protect Hawke like he claimed, then he should have just kept her out of it entirely, and went and done it all himself. And then in the end, if you execute him, he says "I'm glad I got to be happy for a while?" Screw you. Glad to know that you just used me for 7 years, and you got to keep your vendetta AND your romance. I understand that it goes into the foreshadowing and every-companion-needs-one-companion-quest-per-act scheme, but to me his motives just didn't jibe with how Bioware intended to portray him.

If you romanced him in Act II, then this is someone you had a serious relationship with, as you've lived with him for three years. That's a long relationship, even in real life. If a man does to me what Anders did to Hawke, then the only conclusion I can come up with is he never loved me, and I was never the most important thing in his life, no matter what he said to the contrary. I romanced him on my first playthrough, so I wanted to finish it to get the achievement. But if it weren't for the achievement, no way could I be with a guy after he does that. I would have just sent him away though, because the game forces you to execute him yourself, and I don't think I could do that.

Modifié par Camenae, 18 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Lithuasil]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I love that the first time you can flirt with him Hawke comments saying she loves a man with a troubled past.

Famous last words..

I should really have taken his warnings more seriously. <_<

Still would have romanced him, though. And still would have sided with the mages. Sigh.

Sebastian and Varric both warn you as well. It's like everyone but you knew he was going to stab you in the back.

Well Anders himself warns you about Merill... with her present  
So basically, one can be forgiven for disregarding those, still, in retrospect, it does add up nicely.

[Rafe34]

Camenae wrote...

I think he's a douchebag for even asking you to do the Act III companion quest for him. If you cared about someone at all, would you TRICK them into helping you with your terrorist activities, to gather supplies to make a bomb and then to distract the intended victim so he can plant the bomb??? That is EVIL. I would do that to my worst enemy if I wanted them to suffer from their conscience for life, not to someone I claim to love.

If he doesn't want to tell Hawke about his plot, fine. But he should either come out and say, this is what I'm going to do, you decide if you want to help. Or, if he really wanted to protect Hawke like he claimed, then he should have just kept her out of it entirely, and went and done it all himself. And then in the end, if you execute him, he says "I'm glad I got to be happy for a while?" Screw you. Glad to know that you just used me for 7 years, and you got to keep your vendetta AND your romance. I understand that it goes into the foreshadowing and every-companion-needs-one-companion-quest-per-act scheme, but to me his motives just didn't jibe with how Bioware intended to portray him.

If you romanced him in Act II, then this is someone you had a serious relationship with, as you've lived with him for three years. That's a long relationship, even in real life. If a man does to me what Anders did to Hawke, then the only conclusion I can come up with is he never loved me, and I was never the most important thing in his life, no matter what he said to the contrary. I romanced him on my first playthrough, so I wanted to finish it to get the achievement. But if it weren't for the achievement, no way could I be with a guy after he does that. I would have just sent him away though, because the game forces you to execute him yourself, and I don't think I could do that.

Agreed. I could almost forgive him if all he did was get you to help him gather materials that he thought he couldn't get, but then using you to distract the Grand Cleric? While he lies? Honestly, I'm not Merrill. I'm not that naive. I allowed Hawke to "fall" for it the first time, just to see what happened, but there was no way in hell she actually believed him. Just didn't make sense for me from an RP perspective.

Other playthroughs Hawke refuses to help him if he won't tell him/her what's going on, (which he doesn't.) And If he did, I'd turn him in unless I was on an evil playthrough. The inability to do so was annoying.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

To be fair my sister's head would be on Ander's pike.

....on second thought that sounded dirty.

That it did. Still, even if you're not a mage yourself, having a drink while Merill and your sister get butchered strikes me as somewhat wrong, given the "if this were real life" situation

Wait, wait. Sitting there and letting Merrill and Bethany get killed, (even though one could argue Merrill, at least, deserves it), is bad, but agreeing with, and supporting Anders actions, are not?

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...



Wait, wait. Sitting there and letting Merrill and Bethany get killed, (even though one could argue Merrill, at least, deserves it), is bad, but agreeing with, and supporting Anders actions, are not?

Leave Merill alone, she didn't do anything wrong               
And it entirely depends - at least two of my three hawkes could very well justify his actions, yes.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...



Wait, wait. Sitting there and letting Merrill and Bethany get killed, (even though one could argue Merrill, at least, deserves it), is bad, but agreeing with, and supporting Anders actions, are not?

Leave Merill alone, she didn't do anything wrong               
And it entirely depends - at least two of my three hawkes could very well justify his actions, yes.

You have some pretty messed up Hawkes.

I have one, and she basically killed anything that looked at her funny. Or that she thought looked at her funny. Or when she was bored. (Merrill was her romance, go figure.)

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Camenae wrote...

I think he's a douchebag for even asking you to do the Act III companion quest for him. If you cared about someone at all, would you TRICK them into helping you with your terrorist activities, to gather supplies to make a bomb and then to distract the intended victim so he can plant the bomb??? That is EVIL. I would do that to my worst enemy if I wanted them to suffer from their conscience for life, not to someone I claim to love.

If he doesn't want to tell Hawke about his plot, fine. But he should either come out and say, this is what I'm going to do, you decide if you want to help. Or, if he really wanted to protect Hawke like he claimed, then he should have just kept her out of it entirely, and went and done it all himself. And then in the end, if you execute him, he says "I'm glad I got to be happy for a while?" Screw you. Glad to know that you just used me for 7 years, and you got to keep your vendetta AND your romance. I understand that it goes into the foreshadowing and every-companion-needs-one-companion-quest-per-act scheme, but to me his motives just didn't jibe with how Bioware intended to portray him.

If you romanced him in Act II, then this is someone you had a serious relationship with, as you've lived with him for three years. That's a long relationship, even in real life. If a man does to me what Anders did to Hawke, then the only conclusion I can come up with is he never loved me, and I was never the most important thing in his life, no matter what he said to the contrary. I romanced him on my first playthrough, so I wanted to finish it to get the achievement. But if it weren't for the achievement, no way could I be with a guy after he does that. I would have just sent him away though, because the game forces you to execute him yourself, and I don't think I could do that.

As Sebastian says, "He's selfish and will not hesitate to put his needs before your own."

There are a lot of selfish characters in this game. Some are more evil about it than others.

Seriously, instead of saying "Anders...What have you done!" Hawke's reaction should have been..

*punch*
You son of a Mabari!(as well as various expletives)
And this would be followed by some of the kinder characters(Aveline, Varric, etc.) pulling you off of him. Sebastian of course would have relished the thought of you beating Anders to a bloody pulp. Sometimes your characters's reactions were not exactly appropriate to the situation regardless of what personaily you chose. Hawke seemed emotionally neutral for most things aside from your mother dying. Her reaction to Sebastian's chaste propasal was uncomfortable to watch.

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...


You have some pretty messed up Hawkes.

I have one, and she basically killed anything that looked at her funny. Or that she thought looked at her funny. Or when she was bored. (Merrill was her romance, go figure.)

Well, blood magic does things to your head you know. Aside from that, I'd suppose apostate-hawke to be able to pretty easily relate to Anders cause, with her backstory and everything.

That said, my warriorhawke was basically all about getting her sister back, so her reaction was basically "Oh well, ****'s hitting the fan right now, so first things first. Getting to the circle, freeing bethany, getting us all to safety, *that* is priority, and we can talk about what just happened here, once we all know we're gonna see tomorrow.

In fact, as long as you're an apostate yourself, bethany is still alive, or you're romancing merill, getting those you hold dear out of the annulments way would've been pretty much priority to any character I could imagine Hawke ending up being.

[Camenae]

Rafe34 wrote...

Agreed. I could almost forgive him if all he did was get you to help him gather materials that he thought he couldn't get, but then using you to distract the Grand Cleric? While he lies? Honestly, I'm not Merrill. I'm not that naive. I allowed Hawke to "fall" for it the first time, just to see what happened, but there was no way in hell she actually believed him. Just didn't make sense for me from an RP perspective.

Other playthroughs Hawke refuses to help him if he won't tell him/her what's going on, (which he doesn't.) And If he did, I'd turn him in unless I was on an evil playthrough. The inability to do so was annoying.

Yeah, I REALLY wish I could have turned him in.  I hate him more for what he did because I CAN'T claim that I didn't know.  Gathering fertilizer and drakestone (fire) stuff?  Who would think that's completely innocent?    

And to people saying why didn't he blow up the templar keep instead, I think that is because all the mages are kept in there too.  Everybody's in the Gallows. 

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...


You have some pretty messed up Hawkes.

I have one, and she basically killed anything that looked at her funny. Or that she thought looked at her funny. Or when she was bored. (Merrill was her romance, go figure.)

Well, blood magic does things to your head you know. Aside from that, I'd suppose apostate-hawke to be able to pretty easily relate to Anders cause, with her backstory and everything.

That said, my warriorhawke was basically all about getting her sister back, so her reaction was basically "Oh well, ****'s hitting the fan right now, so first things first. Getting to the circle, freeing bethany, getting us all to safety, *that* is priority, and we can talk about what just happened here, once we all know we're gonna see tomorrow.

In fact, as long as you're an apostate yourself, bethany is still alive, or you're romancing merill, getting those you hold dear out of the annulments way would've been pretty much priority to any character I could imagine Hawke ending up being.

I'm not saying I can't see someone siding with the mages- most of mine did.

The Templars seem to be the eviler option to me. I can't anyone but an evil Hawke, or someone who was blinded by Anders being their LI, allowing Anders to live/agreeing with what he did, (which I know are not necessarily one and the same).

[Searska]

A DiNozzo-style whack upside the head mod would be nice. Anders blurts out a number of things that made me wish Hawke would just whap him one. (I also think there should be a Hawke facepalm mod, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...


I'm not saying I can't see someone siding with the mages- most of mine did.

The Templars seem to be the eviler option to me. I can't anyone but an evil Hawke, or someone who was blinded by Anders being their LI, allowing Anders to live/agreeing with what he did, (which I know are not necessarily one and the same).

Thing is, there's a difference between "not killing him the moment the game lets you" and "totally agree with everything he ever did". Both Hawkes would've had quite a serious talk with him, and possibly judged him on that basis, but killing someone off, who's quite the asset in a fight, when there's the largest army in the city about to go at your throat (and who has been a loyal friend for six years) doesn't make sense. 
Stabbing Anders in the back, when we have the opportunity during gameplay, is only something you'd do either out of anger (and neither of my hawkes would kill a companion without thinking about it) or due to siding with the templars 100% and actually annulling every mage within city bounds. otherwise, it just makes more sense, to get the mess sorted first, and then decide who's to blame for it.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...


I'm not saying I can't see someone siding with the mages- most of mine did.

The Templars seem to be the eviler option to me. I can't anyone but an evil Hawke, or someone who was blinded by Anders being their LI, allowing Anders to live/agreeing with what he did, (which I know are not necessarily one and the same).

Thing is, there's a difference between "not killing him the moment the game lets you" and "totally agree with everything he ever did". Both Hawkes would've had quite a serious talk with him, and possibly judged him on that basis, but killing someone off, who's quite the asset in a fight, when there's the largest army in the city about to go at your throat (and who has been a loyal friend for six years) doesn't make sense. 
Stabbing Anders in the back, when we have the opportunity during gameplay, is only something you'd do either out of anger (and neither of my hawkes would kill a companion without thinking about it) or due to siding with the templars 100% and actually annulling every mage within city bounds. otherwise, it just makes more sense, to get the mess sorted first, and then decide who's to blame for it.

He just murdered about a dozen innocent people, with his only justification that he wanted to remove compromise and start a war.

Anger doesn't factor into this. Ander's execution is about justice, (semi-borrowed from a far better sequel, ). Though I would have taken his head off so that he died immediately, just because I knew him for six years. Or had someone else do it. It's obvious that whatever else is going to take place, Anders is to blame for it starting right now. Plus, again, he's a mass murderer and knows it. Oh yeah, and an abomination who everyone knows has been slowly going mad for the last six years, (except Hawke, apparently). He knows what he did was horribly wrong, and thought it was worth it. I can at least respect that- but as Aveline says, Good intentions do not excuse... that!

Anders dies. 

Modifié par Rafe34, 19 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...

He just murdered about a dozen innocent people, with his only justification that he wanted to remove compromise and start a war.

Anger doesn't factor into this. Ander's execution is about justice, (semi-borrowed from a far better sequel, ). Though I would have taken his head off so that he died immediately, just because I knew him for six years. Or had someone else do it. It's obvious that whatever else is going to take place, Anders is to blame for it starting right now. Plus, again, he's a mass murderer and knows it. Oh yeah, and an abomination who everyone knows has been slowly going mad for the last six years, (except Hawke, apparently). He knows what he did was horribly wrong, and thought it was worth it. I can at least respect that- but as Aveline says, Good intentions do not excuse... that!

Anders dies. 

I don't even mean that he should go unpunished. But Anger is one of the two reasons to kill him there on spot. Given the situation, there's a whole lot of things bothering Hawke - and executing Anders for a Crime of War, commited in support of my cause, against my sworn enemies, just doesn't take top priority. Simply put, shock or not, I'd just care a lot more about saving my skin and the hides of those close to me. When he survives the mess, sure we can talk about punishment. But there's more important things right now.

[Retserof]

Rafe34 wrote...
He just murdered about a dozen innocent people, with his only justification that he wanted to remove compromise and start a war.

Anger doesn't factor into this. Ander's execution is about justice, (semi-borrowed from a far better sequel, ). Though I would have taken his head off so that he died immediately, just because I knew him for six years. Or had someone else do it. It's obvious that whatever else is going to take place, Anders is to blame for it starting right now. Plus, again, he's a mass murderer and knows it.

Anders dies. 

You don't even know if anyone's dead, honestly. Meredith goes all "THE CLERIC IS DEAD, KILL THE MAGES," yet doesn't even take a quick glance at the rubble for corpses, let alone survivors. Sure, Anders blew up the Chantry and it's somewhat insane to suggest nobody is dead as a result (given we have a quick camera view from inside and all) but from Hawke's perspective, I don't understand how you can justify killing Anders on the spot (or at all, but that's a different argument).

- The number of people he killed is in question, and you don't know if anyone's actually dead at all
- He's just standing there. He's not a threat to anyone else (anyone whos "innocence" is certainly debatable), has professed guilt, and has not indicated he wishes to continue harming people (aside from templars).

All you've really got him on is property destruction at that point. And since when is that worth a knife in the back?

Modifié par Retserof, 19 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[MorningBird]

In all honesty, I don't think the Grand Cleric was in any position to provide 'compromise'. She simply lacked the authoritative power and desire to do so (she implies as much herself.) In fact, all she can (and is willing) to do is send Orsino and Meredith to their separate corners for a 'time out', but no one benefits from this in the long run. She was just prolonging the inevitable, and (to be frank) if Anders didn't take her out, someone else would have eventually, that's pretty much a given (not that I think she deserved to die, mind you.)

There's a reason the Divine sent Leliana to retrieve her from Kirkwall before '**** hit the fan.' Hostilities were growing out of control, and at some point someone was going to try and get rid of that one playground supervisor who did nothing but tell everyone to 'play nice with each other.'

Mages are not going to play nice with templars when they're being torn from their families and forced to subscribe to a certain way of life--for the rest of their life--or perish. Mages are not going to play nice with templars when they continuously abuse the authority they hold over mages.

On the flip-side, templars are not going to play nice with mages when there's a blood mage boom spreading throughout the city, putting mundane civilians at risk. Templars are not going to play nice with mages when the Chantry of Andraste preaches that mages are something to be caged and guarded for the safety of all.

Unless the Divine suddenly decided, "Hmm... mages need to be regulated, but we (the Chantry and templars) have gone too far with our control over them. We need to change the way we run this operation before someone starts a mage uprising that brings the world to the brink of war!" there can be no compromise, only one side giving in to the other, because the Divine (not the Grand Cleric or Hawke) is the only one in Thedas with that kind of power.

But she doesn't want to compromise. In fact, she's considering bringing an Exalted March down on Kirkwall. That being said, either mages accept their lot in life, or something drastic (Anders) occurs to force change.

Maybe Anders didn't have a right to make the decision on his own, but I think he was in a better position than most (even Hawke) to make SOME kind decision. He'd lived both inside and outside of the circle. He had a good taste of both freedom and 'imprisonment.' He had talks with the Grand Cleric (presumably through Acts 2 and 3) to try and find a middle ground. He was a part of and well connected to an apostate underground that was constantly smuggling circle mages out of Kirkwall. His friends and allies were killed for either being or harboring apostates, and those who managed to evade detection turned to blood magic out of desperation.

While I do not doubt that Vengeance played a part in Anders' decision, I don't think there's any denying that Anders thought long and hard about what he was going to do before he did it.

In any case, I'm not saying that what Anders did was right. I just believe that the mage/templar conflict was going to escalate into a war sooner or later. Anders just made it happen sooner rather than later because he couldn't wait for someone else to strike the first blow.

I'd love to know what 'compromise' could have been offered to avoid a full out war between the templars and mages. This word is being tossed around as though it were the cure to world hunger.

Modifié par MorningBird, 19 mars 2011 - 09:41 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

It's funny because random party banter just shed some light on all of this. Anders said he was rather content being an apostate without a care in the world. It wasn't until Justice said "Why don't you feel the need to help all mages?" He said he thought about what Justice had said and decided Justice was right and that he should be concerned with the bigger picture rather than being selfish.

Except he continued to be selfish under the umbrella of righteousness and betrayed his friends unending kindness while dooming his fellows all to the pyre. He ultimately made the decision for everyone else whether they liked it or not. He seems to have taken Justice's comment and took it to the extreme.

Good going Anders. Next time you want to help, don't.