734 réponses à ce sujet

[WJC3688]

Becuase having a larger stamina bar allows you to use more activated abilities while maintaining a decent attack bonus after those are used.  Having Second Wind simply allows you to dump even more abilities without having to worry nearly as much about your bar.  Unless all you do is auto attack and only use Cleave, you aren't going to have a full stamina bar at all times, even with Death Blow, especially on bosses.

I can't really tell what you're getting at here.  Could you be more specific?

Maybe you're saying that without Wil investment you won't have enough stamina to use all your activated abilities at once?  If so, I disagree; Cleave, Barrage, Mighty Blow, and Scythe totals up to 90 stamina, so you only need 113 to use all 4 of those while sustaining Might, easily obtainable with +stamina accessories, or just a few points in Wil if for some reason you don't want to equip any +stamina gear.  It's true that you won't have a full stamina bar at all times, but since your different activated abilities have different cooldown durations (notably, Barrage has a 30 second cooldown vs 20 on the others, additionally it may not always be advantageous to use Mighty Blow/Scythe the very instant they come off CD, etc.), you shouldn't find yourself trying to use them all at once either (after your initial burst of abilities when a fight starts, that is, for which you are guaranteed to have a full stamina bar up since, once again, the fight just started).

Because the damage bonus provided by WIL via the Berserk talent depends on how long you can sustain the skill.  Therefore, as you put more points into WIL, Second Wind will return an even greater amount of stamina upon use.

STR is persistant damage and doesn't have a time component.  So measuring STR vs. the damage increase of Berserk for 1 full stamina bar will be very different than measuring the damage increase of STR vs. the damage increase of Berserk for 2 or more full stamina bars.

Specifically, the previous STR vs. WIL post concluded, in part, that when stamina is exhausted WIL points become useless whereas STR is always useful.  Well, as a counter to that conclusion what if stamina was never exhausted because the stamina bar was sufficient to last 45 seconds so Second Wind (upgraded) was always available for use?

TL;DR:  You can't measure the WIL side of the equation without factoring in unlimited stamina or the exact duration of Berserk, which will be affected by instant cast talents such as Second Wind (and to a lesser extent Bolster).

Yes, that was what I concluded, in part; emphasis on the in part.  Once again, the majority of the post dealt with how the two builds match up even when both have a full stamina bar, i.e. how they would perform even with unlimited stamina, and Str came out on top.  To restate:

I used a couple respecs on my level 20 guy to see just how much of an
attack difference we're talking:  After getting 41 Str for Bloom and 31
for Champion Armor, I had 19 points left over to put wherever I want,
and putting all of those into Str resulted in +10% chance to hit as
opposed to what I'd have if I put them all into Wil instead (98% as
opposed to 88% vs normal enemies).

For an idea of how much of a
difference this makes in your DPS:  Putting the points into Wil would've
given +4.75 (19 * 0.25) damage over the Str build.  With +10% chance to
hit on the Str build, this means it should land an extra hit that the
Wil build would've missed once every 10 hits.  So out of 10 attacks, the
Str build would hit 10, while the Wil build would miss one, but the Wil
build would do a little more damage on each hit that it did land. 
Which one wins out?  Well, my guy's base damage on the Str build is 63
(60 Str + Bloom), so that's at least +63 damage over the Wil build when
that extra hit happens; however, that's just what is displayed on the
attributes screen, which doesn't take into account bonuses from sustains
or runes, so in reality it's much more than 63 damage (exactly how much
more I can't be bothered to calculate).  So the Str build gets 63+
extra damage from that extra hit; how much extra damage does the Wil
build get from doing a bit more on the 9 hits it does land?  Only 42.75
(9 * 4.75).  If I've got my math right, over the course of 10 attacks
(and in general), the build that focuses on Str does more damage.

This passage was assuming that all the additional damage from Wil investment would be present, i.e., the stamina bar would be full.  The fact that Str damage stays even if Berserk goes down is just icing on the cake.

Modifié par WJC3688, 31 mars 2011 - 09:45 .

[Zhijn]

AreleX have you tried this tactic with Merril?. Tho you probably already know it heh!.

Enm: clustered with atleast 2 (or more) > Use current condition for next tactic
STAGGERED > Chain lightning.

I only just tried it myself and found it quite useful that she would only use chain lighting on multi staggers rather just one and non staggers. =)

[AreleX]

I've tried it, my only issue with it is that the game's definition of 'clustered' and my own are apparently very different, as I could have every enemy in the game standing staggered jerking off in a circle, and she sometimes wouldn't cast it,

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Of course she wouldn't, she'd be too confused about what they were doing.
Though in general, Clustered seems to mean within two meters (if I have distances figured out right) of each other. Tempests get cast pretty regularly so.. *shrug* Still prefer to keep the Staggered condition to one, odds are there's another nearby anyways.

[Zhijn]

AreleX wrote...

I've tried it, my only issue with it is that the game's definition of 'clustered' and my own are apparently very different, as I could have every enemy in the game standing staggered jerking off in a circle, and she sometimes wouldn't cast it,

Yeah i tried it a few more times and while she only use it on clustered foes she will still "waste" it on a single staggered enm within the cluster. Oh well.

[Bozorgmehr]

WJC3688 wrote...

Yes, that was what I concluded, in part; emphasis on the in part.  Once again, the majority of the post dealt with how the two builds match up even when both have a full stamina bar, i.e. how they would perform even with unlimited stamina, and Str came out on top.  To restate:

I used a couple respecs on my level 20 guy to see just how much of an
attack difference we're talking:  After getting 41 Str for Bloom and 31
for Champion Armor, I had 19 points left over to put wherever I want,
and putting all of those into Str resulted in +10% chance to hit as
opposed to what I'd have if I put them all into Wil instead (98% as
opposed to 88% vs normal enemies).

For an idea of how much of a
difference this makes in your DPS:  Putting the points into Wil would've
given +4.75 (19 * 0.25) damage over the Str build.  With +10% chance to
hit on the Str build, this means it should land an extra hit that the
Wil build would've missed once every 10 hits.  So out of 10 attacks, the
Str build would hit 10, while the Wil build would miss one, but the Wil
build would do a little more damage on each hit that it did land. 
Which one wins out?  Well, my guy's base damage on the Str build is 63
(60 Str + Bloom), so that's at least +63 damage over the Wil build when
that extra hit happens; however, that's just what is displayed on the
attributes screen, which doesn't take into account bonuses from sustains
or runes, so in reality it's much more than 63 damage (exactly how much
more I can't be bothered to calculate).  So the Str build gets 63+
extra damage from that extra hit; how much extra damage does the Wil
build get from doing a bit more on the 9 hits it does land?  Only 42.75
(9 * 4.75).  If I've got my math right, over the course of 10 attacks
(and in general), the build that focuses on Str does more damage.

This passage was assuming that all the additional damage from Wil investment would be present, i.e., the stamina bar would be full.  The fact that Str damage stays even if Berserk goes down is just icing on the cake.

There's a lot more to take into account IMHO:

- My Hawke @ level 23 (STR 41) with gear and the Blade of Mercy: attack 100% (784) > 100% vs normal, 89% vs Lieutenants, and 74% vs Bosses. When I go full STR same equipment: attack 100% (3825) > 100%, 100%, 85%. No difference against normal enemies and only a small improvement against powerful enemies.

- Same Hawke (max WIL) had 400 stamina (that's an additional 60 damage per hit with Berserk) and 400 stamina lasts a long time. More stamina also means you gain more by killing enemies which ensures you always have an almost full bar. Only when fighting bosses stamina will get low, but you can use Second Wind and the regular waves of normal enemies to regain stamina quickly.

- Numbers alone don't tell the whole story, the most important thing is the number of hits you'll need to kill enemies. You can have higher damage, but if you still need the same number of hits to kill the vast majority of enemies, that extra damage has little impact on gameplay. It does make a difference against the strongest enemies, but they are few and those fights are more about endurance than speed anyway.

There's alot more, like crits, companion abilities, the option to go Templar/Reaver instead etc. It also wouldn't make much sense if extra stamina reduces overall damage (going WIL instead of STR). It's an interesting subject though.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 31 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[Manveru123]

And thus I'm loving my Vague Blade and it's perfect hit ;p SnS ftw!

[WJC3688]

My Hawke @ level
23 (STR 41) with gear and the Blade of Mercy: attack 100% (784) >
100% vs normal, 89% vs Lieutenants, and 74% vs Bosses. When I go full
STR same equipment: attack 100% (3825) > 100%, 100%, 85%. No
difference against normal enemies and only a small improvement against
powerful enemies.

What was your gear?  As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't able to reach 100% vs normal enemies even at 60 strength, and I only had 88% or so at 41 strength, so I'd be interested to hear what you have equipped.

Granted that if you are at 100%, additional Willpower obviously becomes more valuable; the question there is, how early in the game will you reach that 100%?  The earlier you can reach it, the stronger the case is for focusing on willpower.

It's noteworthy that you're only hitting 100% vs normal enemies with 41 strength, not against all enemies, so Str vs Wil is still up in the air here.  Note that the "small" attack improvement you're seeing vs elites/bosses is almost exactly the same as the improvement I saw when I compared the two (10% for my guy, 11% for yours), so the conclusions I reached about hit chance vs damage would hold true vs elites/bosses for your character; in other words, focusing on strength with your character would make him stronger vs elites/bosses, but focusing on willpower would make him stronger vs normal enemies (since you've got 100% there either way).  Which one is better?  Hard to tell, but a good starting point would be to ask which enemy type is more threatening to this Vanguard/Berserker/Reaver build in general; what is more likely to stop it, a large mob of normal enemies, or a couple elites/a boss?  That would tell you which one you want to be stronger against.

Numbers
alone don't tell the whole story, the most important thing is the number
of hits you'll need to kill enemies. You can have higher damage, but if
you still need the same number of hits to kill the vast majority of
enemies, that extra damage has little impact on gameplay. It does make a
difference against the strongest enemies, but they are few and those
fights are more about endurance than speed anyway.

That's true, and it seems to me like that's evidence in favor of focusing on strength.  Willpower's advantage is that it provides more damage per point with Berserk active, while strength's selling point is that it ups your hit chance; as long as you're below 100% additional hit chance will always be relevant, whereas as you said here, additional damage from willpower won't matter against a trash enemy that dies in 3 hits regardless.

[Skyorange]

Thanks for this guide. I decided to implement it on my nightmare warr game and its worked wonders

[AtlAggie]

AreleX wrote...

This is really hard to do, since I'm constantly switching my tactics around, and nothing ever stays set in stone for long, but I'll try to make an amalgamation of the things that worked best, in my limited testing. At Level 19:

Isabela Tactics

Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use Stamina Draught
Self: Any - Activate: Speed
Self: Surrounded by at least two - Activate: Savvy (Buccaneer's Savvy upgraded)
Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Savvy (Buccaneer's Savvy upgraded)
Self: Health <50% - Use current condition for next tactic
Anders: Any - Back-to-Back (Invisible Friend upgraded)
Enemy: Attacking Anders - Use current condition for next tactic
Hawke: Any - Goad
Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Goad
Anders: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
Enemy: Clustered with at least two enemies - Use current condition for next tactic
Anders: Being attacked by a melee attack - All Hands on Deck (Shore Leave upgraded)
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
Anders: Being attacked by a melee attack - Twin Fangs (Reversed Grip upgradeded)
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike (Merciless Strike upgraded)

As you can see, I pretty much have her set to be Anders' bodyguard, since she can kill enemies around him without very possibly destroying him in the process. I'm thinking about dropping Explosive Strike (Merciless Strike upgraded) altogether, just because the way the AI handles chained attacks is incredibly iffy. It's awesome when it works, don't get me wrong, seeing her one-shot Elites will never get old, it's just that I don't feel like it works consistently enough, at this point in testing.

Thanks so much for sharing what you've developed for Isabela tactics so far!  It's definitely been a great help.  Are you still trying her out in your party, or has she proven too challenging to integrate in an effective way?

Thanks again!

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Either I just suck, or I'm not building/preping right. Two Mach-5s (2-Hander and WnS) were totally thrashed in the Arishok duel. :/

[brazen_nl]

Keep trying and watch him closely. He's pretty predictable. It's easy to see when you need to get out of his way.

[Thass]

Love this build! Just starting playing with it and instantly starting owning face.

Cheers!

[Ironfungus]

Does the Blade of Mercy not show up if you choose not to recruit Fenris? Because the chest that supposedly contains it is not there at the Secret Meeting Place (Docks at Night).

[AreleX]

Ironfungus wrote...

Does the Blade of Mercy not show up if you choose not to recruit Fenris? Because the chest that supposedly contains it is not there at the Secret Meeting Place (Docks at Night).

I don't know for sure, but I'd assume not, since it's initially a gift for him.

[Ironfungus]

That makes me sad. Nice work on the build, though! I had to re-roll my mage just to try it out. It's pretty much GG mode; I love it.

[WJC3688]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Either I just suck, or I'm not building/preping right. Two Mach-5s (2-Hander and WnS) were totally thrashed in the Arishok duel. :/

The Arishok is a unique (and IMO, poorly designed) encounter that's going to require different tactics from the rest of the game's battles.  Since you don't have your team to fall back on if you're in a tough spot, you can't just turn on your buffs and mow him down like you can everything else.  I had to resort to kiting him in circles around the pillars and hitting him every now and then during the brief windows of time where he's vulnerable and can't retaliate, such as after his charge attack.  You can either do this, or you can just decline the duel and fight him with your whole party (I prefer the latter option).

[Sabotin]

Dunno who and where, but someone hit the nail on the head with this comment: Dueling him is like nascar.

Btw, I wanted to be a smartass and argue that Celebrant is the best 2h weapon because spirit damage rules, but then it turned out that half the enemies (or at least fights) are immune to it. Wish they'd implement back the weapon switching button, sigh.

Oh and thanks for this guide (though I changed some things in my build), I really had a blast mowing enemies down with insane damage and speed. And listening to Forces xD .

[Ndutz]

I just discovered two days ago that the 100% damage vs enemy that attacks in mellee is very useful againts the arishok. I just dueled him on hard with shield of knight herself and desdemona blade, and only used two health potions. I wasnt even playing optimally.

The reason being the damge returned to the arishok is massive everytime he hit me he end up hurting himself more than me. He got up to 170ish damage on himself while i only suffers 78ish or so.This is even more apparent when he does his grabbing move. I only suffered 20 damage each tick but he received 170ish damage each tick.

[Jberardi318]

Great build man, been playing it for a week or so and I'm crushing this 10 times faster then on my mage play through. Almost seems unfair. Was just wondering why you didn't take Muscle. Did you just run out of points or just not find it necessary? I would think the extra crit damage would help down bosses a lot faster. Also I know it probably won't make much of a difference but what end game accessories did you guys blow your gold on in act 3?

[duggiefreshness]

Thanks sooo much for this. I just made my 2 weilder and although i put a few points in different skills, i can always reset them. the only thing im not going with here in having merrill in my party. I think im gonna go aveline to help me up front

[Zachriel]

Awesome guide. I just finished the game using this build, and it was phenomenal.

I wasn't able to pull off the Xebenkeck fight without running away, though. I must have reloaded 20 times before I gave up on it. It was those damn rage demons that kept messing me up. I just could NOT get them to stay clustered together, so I'd always end up killing one while the other still had most of it's health up, and then of course 2 more would spawn in.

Oh well, I did eventually beat her even if I had to resort to cheesy tactics to do it.

[Gnoster]

Very interesting guide indeed.
 
I started DA2 with a 2-handed warrior, and I have now for my third game gone back to 2-handed warrior for the sole purpose of trying out Sabresandiego’s burst build. So it is going very well (in the middle of Act II), but I got interested in your Berserker Build and started thinking if it wasn’t possible to somehow combine the two builds.
 
If we take Sabresandiego’s build, he stated that it is basically done at level 13 (after Act I), which requires spending a total of 16 skill points on the following skills (not in order):
-          Mighty Blow
-          Giant’s Reach
-          Control
-          Might
-          Scythe
-          Bolster
-          Cleave
-          Whirlwind
-          Blood Frenzy
-          Second Wind
-          Destroyer
-          Claymore
-          Sunder
-          Reaper
-          Killer Blow
-          Massacre
 
Looking at these skills and the ones needed for the Berserker Vanguard, I see the following skills needed extra to complete that:
-          Berserk
-          Barrage
-          Adrenaline
-          Endless Berserk
-          Unrelenting Barrage
-          Savage Berserk
-          Death Blow
-          Devour
-          Sacrificial Frenzy
-          Aura of Pain
-          Fervor
-          Deep Breath
-          Last Push
-          Deep Reserves
 
The above requires 14 extra skill points for a total of 30, which is currently not possible (as far as I know). However what is possible is starting end game at level 23 + 4 extra skill points from 2 tomes and 2 elixirs, giving you 27 skill points. So my theory is to drop Deep Breath, Last Push, and Deep Reserves. This should give both viable builds and thus a 2-handed warrior, who could rush in, burst down the first enemy rush, then use Second Wind and switch to Berserker mode for mopping up stranglers and finishing bosses.
 
Anyway as I wrote, all this is purely theory on my part as I’m not great at testing out these things myself and rely a lot on the community for inspiration on builds. I’ll be trying it out myself in my current game, but would like comments from the masters

[E l i t e D 9 6]

AreleX wrote...

Varric
Self: Health <25% - Use: Potion
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use: Stamina Draught
Self: Any - Activate: Bianca's Song
Self: Health <50% - Use current condition for next tactic
Anders: Any - Back-to-Back
Anders: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
Hawke: Any - Goad
Merrill - Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
Hawke: Any - Goad
Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
Hawke: Any - Goad
Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
Anders: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
Anders: Being attacked by a melee or magic attack - Kickback
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Brand
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Pinning Shot
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Rhyming Triplet
Enemy: Target of Hawke - Attack

Why do you use kickback on Anders?
Great guide by the way, looking forward to trying it

[E l i t e D 9 6]

duggiefreshness wrote...

Thanks sooo much for this. I just made my 2 weilder and although i put a few points in different skills, i can always reset them. the only thing im not going with here in having merrill in my party. I think im gonna go aveline to help me up front

Aveline will just get owned by Hawke