136 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

DrGulag wrote...

What ever they want? No. But they should be as free as anyone else, prosecuted for there own actions, not imprisoned for life on maybes.

Would you extend those rights to a person who wouldn't hurt a fly but could potentially explode at any second like a nuclear bomb.

This person refuses to live in captivity. He wants his human rights.

Using sedatives is the only way (short of murder) to remove the threat of explosion.

Thedas is a mess.

 as I just posted, kill them as soon as they manifest, it is better than the circle and certainly better than tranquility.  Let them live free as anyone else, or kill them.

[fluorine7]

Vilegrim wrote...

then kill  them as children.  Seriously, that is better than tranquility or the circle. 

LOL, no no ~~~ killing children is bad.... very bad...

I think it should be a choice for a mage that can not control his/her ability: you can choose to be made tranquil or you can choose to be executed. 

You'd be surprised how many would prefer living. 

[Vilegrim]

fluorine7 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

then kill  them as children.  Seriously, that is better than tranquility or the circle. 

LOL, no no ~~~ killing children is bad.... very bad...

I think it should be a choice for a mage that can not control his/her ability: you can choose to be made tranquil or you can choose to be executed. 

You'd be surprised how many would prefer living. 

The Circle is a moraly bankrupt idea, better to die than spend you life in prison under constant interrogation and abuse.

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...



The Circle is a moraly bankrupt idea, better to die than spend you life in prison under constant interrogation and abuse.

There is of course the possibility of making the circles porperly, i.e a refugium to keep mages safe and let them learn without putting everyone at risk, as opposed to a prison. With how magic works in thedas, Hogwarts might not quite be possible, but it doesn't have to be guantanamo either.

[Vilegrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...



The Circle is a moraly bankrupt idea, better to die than spend you life in prison under constant interrogation and abuse.

There is of course the possibility of making the circles porperly, i.e a refugium to keep mages safe and let them learn without putting everyone at risk, as opposed to a prison. With how magic works in thedas, Hogwarts might not quite be possible, but it doesn't have to be guantanamo either.

that is still seperating a part of the population for the 'crime' of being born.  Mandatory trainin? Certainly.  But allowed to leave after that training is finished and live as free as anyone else.

[Ngoctu]

the problem is trying to rule that world with the knowledge and morality we have in this world.

In this world we are created all equal thats why everybody has the same right

in that world people are not created all equal mage are not equal to man I am not saying they dont have the same rights they should be free but the level of freedom they should have is different.

With great power come great responsability and responsability automatically limit our freedom (think about ur family the head of the family that has lot of responsability has not the same freedom of the kid)... they are not born all equal thats why even if they didnt do anything wrong they happen to be mage they have to have the moral strengh to accept the bound that come with power.

They have to live in a comunity to protect them from themselves they have to give up the right of beeing totally free or give up their power (tranquil) if they want to be totally free that's how it should be

You guys are trying to justify them on an "equlity system" as it is the one we have right now in our society but the DA society in not made of "equal" person

If you think about it nowday if u born from a rich celebrity you have your freedom in a way limited if u are the son of the President you have some boundary that other kids doesnt have MORE POWER=LESS FREEDOM mage cant' expect to have the freedom of people that is not mage and they in the first place shouldnt ask for it

Modifié par Ngoctu, 17 mars 2011 - 09:41 .

[DrGulag]

The problem with the circles is that you can't allow freedom of movement and without constant control a single determined mage can bring the whole place down just like happened in Ferelden.

As a result you have templars in every room ready to do some head chopping and people feel like they are being persecuted. Which leads to animosity and the use of blood magic.

[Vilegrim]

Ngoctu wrote...

the problem is trying to rule that world with the knowledge and morality we have in this world.

In this world we are created all equal thats why we everybody has the same right

in that world people are not created all equal mage are not equal to man I am not saying they dont have the same rights they should be free but the level of freedom they should have is different.

With great power come great responsability and responsability automatically limit our freedom... you are not born all equal thats why even if they didnt do anything wrong they happen to be mage they have to have the moral strengh to accept the bound that come with power.

The have to live in a comunity to protect them from themselves they have to give up the right of beeing totally free or give up their power if they want to be totally free that's how it should be

You guys are trying to justify them on an equlity system as it is the one we have right now in our society but the DA society in not made of "equal" person

If you think about it nowday if u born from a rich celebrity you have your freedom in a way limited if u are the son of the President you have some boundary that other kids doesnt have MORE POWER=LESS FREEDOM mage cant' expect to have the freedom of people that is not mage and they in the first place shouldnt ask for it

Any person with a knowledge of chemistry could do far more damage now than a mage could even dream of, should all chemistry students be locked away?

[fluorine7]

Vilegrim wrote...



The Circle is a moraly bankrupt idea, better to die than spend you life in prison under constant interrogation and abuse.

It should be a choice. You believe it is better die than spend life in prison. That's not always true for other people. Force people to live "freely" according to your standard is not freedom at all. There're people who might actually WANT to be part of the circle. 

That's where Anders is wrong. He believes in freedom for all mages, regardless how dangerous they are. But that's irrisponsible for mages. It is a proven fact that mages are dangerous. So they should be controlled. 

Or.... They should rule over normal people because they're indeed more powerful than normal people. Do you think The Tervinter has the right idea? that's what happens when mages running loose. 

[DrGulag]

Any person with a knowledge of chemistry could do far more damage now than a mage could even dream of, should all chemistry students be locked away?

They "might be" if they are determined enough and willing to create chaos. As a result society regulates what substances one can purchase from the market.

But mages can't just pick and choose. A demon might say hello after dinner or never.

And even after completing the harrowing it would be foolish to just let them walk about without any supervision. It takes only one bad apple out of one hundred good ones to cause destruction and mayhem.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 09:51 .

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...



that is still seperating a part of the population for the 'crime' of being born.  Mandatory trainin? Certainly.  But allowed to leave after that training is finished and live as free as anyone else.

Unfortunately, mages will, like any other person really, always be selfish, so that doesn't quite work. But having people in the circle, letting their families live there if they want to, otherwise allowing weekly visits and half a day off per week to go fishing or shopping or whatever?
All, to be protected both from the endless stream of immortal spirits trying to eat your brains, and from the occasional lynch mob. Plus, living in a nice big fancy castle instead of the mud-hut you were probably born in?

Mages would turn themselves in by the bucketload. The circles have the ressources and ability to make life for the mages pretty decent, and favorable compared to one in freedom and poverty - the key difference is to treat magic as an inconvenience that needs to be compensated to keep everyone safe and comfortable, as opposed to treating it as a crime you need to atone for.

[TheCreeper]

Yeah no, I can't get behind a idea that involves removing part of a person's soul just because they where born different.

[sylvanaerie]

To OP, No. Jeez, even Cullen is appalled, since it is apparently illegal to Tranquil a Harrowed mage. Alrik (Spelling?) was apparently yet another paragon of sanity in the cradle of idiocy that is Kirkwall.

[Kyriani Agrivar]

DrGulag wrote...

It's not genocide though Cutting them off from the spirit world renders them emotionless which is horrible but they are still alive.

But what is the realistic option here?

The Circle of Magi have rebelled, they refuse to live under close scrutiny. So what gives?

What you're saying reminds me of an old Voyager episode where the Doctor wanted to save the lives of some borg drones but the only way to do it would be to return them to the collective and have them reassimilated.... losing their individuality. Here's some lines from the script:

Seven of Nine:
Survival is insufficient.

Seven of Nine:
I will not return them to the Borg.

The Doctor:
Are you thinking of what's best for them? Or for you?

Seven of Nine:
Clarify.

The Doctor:
You said it yourself - you made a mistake. And Seven of Nine doesn't
like to make mistakes. She strives for perfection. I want you to think
about the motivation behind your decision. Are you doing what's right
for those three people? Or are you trying to alleviate the guilt you
feel over what happened eight years ago?

Seven of Nine:
The damage I did can never be repaired; and my guilt is irrelevant. I
simply want them to experience individuality, as I have. As *you* have.
At one time, you were confined to this sickbay. Your program was limited
to emergency medical protocols. In some ways, you were not unlike a
drone. But you were granted the opportunity to explore your
individuality. You were allowed to expand your program. Your mobile
emitter gives you freedom of movement. Your thoughts are your own. If
you were told you had to become a drone again, I believe you would
resist.

The Doctor:
[whispers[/i]] Yes. I suppose I would.

Seven of Nine:
They would resist as well. They would choose freedom, no matter how fleeting. Only you and I can truly understand that.

The Doctor:
[agrees[/i]] Survival *is* insufficient.

Chakotay:
There's a difference between surviving and living.

I whole heartedly agree that "Survival is insufficient". I would rather die than have someone summarily rip my emotions, dreams, the very essence of who I am away and leave me to simply exist.

Suvival is insufficient.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 17 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[fluorine7]

TheCreeper wrote...

Yeah no, I can't get behind a idea that involves removing part of a person's soul just because they where born different.

it's not that simple. Mage being different is not like born into a different skin color or different sex orientation. none of those are dangerous to other people.

Mages are dangerous. 

I suddgenly feel very very stupid debating this. 

[Retserof]

I think there's a rather simple (if somewhat impractical) solution. Allow the mages to police themselves. Er, perhaps I should rephrase that--"force" the mages to police themselves.

Essentially, make it the responsibility of all mages to hunt and dispose of renegade mages. A mage that refuses to hunt a mage that has unjustly caused harmed another person is to be killed for refusal.

You set up a sort of honor code system that becomes ingrained in mage culture over a few hundred years. It would take time, and very strong leadership, but eventually policing themselves would become second nature.

Of course, it would have to operate within reason. You couldn't force a mage to go around the globe hunting other mages. You could say, confine it to a city or so--becomes their responsibility within their city or some other reasonable frame of distance. Any mage that did not want to have this responsibility would simply not be allowed to live in "civilized" society--banishment of a sorts (providing they haven't commited any crimes).

This would do two things: all but remove the incentive to go power hungry (as your brothers will hunt you down) and remove the incentive for corruption among the ranks of mages (refusing to administer justice to other mages = death for yourself). I could see this working, and I can't imagine any mage with good intentions disagreeing with it. Everybody wins--if they can hold it together.

EDIT: Otherwise, I see no option than to allow mages to do as they wish. If society crumbles and Thedas is torn to shreds, at least we'll have a clear conscience.

Modifié par Retserof, 17 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Vilegrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...



that is still seperating a part of the population for the 'crime' of being born.  Mandatory trainin? Certainly.  But allowed to leave after that training is finished and live as free as anyone else.

Unfortunately, mages will, like any other person really, always be selfish, so that doesn't quite work. But having people in the circle, letting their families live there if they want to, otherwise allowing weekly visits and half a day off per week to go fishing or shopping or whatever?
All, to be protected both from the endless stream of immortal spirits trying to eat your brains, and from the occasional lynch mob. Plus, living in a nice big fancy castle instead of the mud-hut you were probably born in?

Mages would turn themselves in by the bucketload. The circles have the ressources and ability to make life for the mages pretty decent, and favorable compared to one in freedom and poverty - the key difference is to treat magic as an inconvenience that needs to be compensated to keep everyone safe and comfortable, as opposed to treating it as a crime you need to atone for.

maybe, if every Templar who has ever made a mage tranquil is made a deaf mute and blind quadraplegic, to get an incling of what it is desrcibed as feeling like.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[Shepard Lives]

No. Policing mages, yes. Execute outlaw mages, yes. But the "tranquil solution" is inhuman. It's unacceptable to force such a fate on a human being just for being what they are.

[hismastersvoice]

I do not endorse the preemptive penalization of people with income below poverty threshold and thus more inclined to commit crimes. It's one of many such idiocies I do not endorse. Extrapolate from there...

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...


maybe, if every Templar who has ever made a mage tranquil is made a deaf mute and blind quadraplegic, to get an incling of what it is desrcibed as feeling like.

The templars in general should be composed of promagic mundane, as opposed to religious zealots and bitter people trying to get back at the mages because a bloodmage ate their sister.

[TheCreeper]

fluorine7 wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Yeah no, I can't get behind a idea that involves removing part of a person's soul just because they where born different.

it's not that simple. Mage being different is not like born into a different skin color or different sex orientation. none of those are dangerous to other people.

Mages are dangerous. 

I suddgenly feel very very stupid debating this. 

They are dangerous yes but with proper training and (this part is important)  proper treatment the risk is low. Mistreat or like in conner's case, improperly train them and you are just asking for bad stuff to happenn. Thedas hasn't been overrun by demons and what not so as long as they are handled properly, the benefits outway the risk.

[Vilegrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...


maybe, if every Templar who has ever made a mage tranquil is made a deaf mute and blind quadraplegic, to get an incling of what it is desrcibed as feeling like.

The templars in general should be composed of promagic mundane, as opposed to religious zealots and bitter people trying to get back at the mages because a bloodmage ate their sister.

hmm, or better of the mundane family members (an employment choice ofc) of the mages in a different circle, so Carver joining the Templars and being placed in the Orlaisin circle (for instance) or Fereldan.   With Mage Hawke in Kirkwall chantry. 

People who have grown up around mages, basically so don't have the religous fear, but also seperate enough to strike down abominations.

Any mage is allowed to live seperatly from the local circle, but is liable for weekly 'check ups' by an enchanter/templar 'case team' to check on how they are doing, this also places loyal mages in place in case of darkspawn attack or apostate or w/e. (But hopefully apostates would be far rarer) Trusted 'lay mages' (those in the community) should be allowed to take late stage apprentices on the Keeper/First model, basically home schooling under the same case team, again meaning a healer is available in the community (or a grade A ass kicker) as needed, and that families wouldm't have to be seperated for long (apart from the most dangerous points in training)

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 10:05 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Hitler had a final solution for the Jew problem... does anyone think that was an ok idea?

[DrGulag]

No. Policing mages, yes. Execute outlaw mages, yes. But the "tranquil solution" is inhuman. It's unacceptable to force such a fate on a human being just for being what they are.

But :

Policing has failed.

The Circle of Magi have rebelled and are no more. This is the situation after Dragon Age 2.

Execute all of them? That's what the Chantry seekers are probably trying to achieve. 

It's going to end in tears.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[Ngoctu]

different is that a chemesty or alquimist can be tempted only by human temptation a mage is tempted by unnatural forces that we cannot measure we cannot know how irrisistible are and they can come at night in ur dream when u are not able to defend yourself

if you dont see the difference I may begin to worry plus the power of chemestry is at everybody hand they just need to want to take it the power of blood is only for mage so in frist place is not the same for everybody so why shouldn't they be treated differently

a gun everybody can buy it a bloodmage spell is not for everybody to handle this is unfair and is the reason why they are not "all the same" and why they should have limited freedom

Modifié par Ngoctu, 17 mars 2011 - 10:09 .