136 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...
hmm, or better of the mundane family members (an employment choice ofc) of the mages in a different circle, so Carver joining the Templars and being placed in the Orlaisin circle (for instance) or Fereldan.   With Mage Hawke in Kirkwall chantry. 

People who have grown up around mages, basically so don't have the religous fear, but also seperate enough to strike down abominations.

Any mage is allowed to live seperatly from the local circle, but is liable for weekly 'check ups' by an enchanter/templar 'case team' to check on how they are doing, this also places loyal mages in place in case of darkspawn attack or apostate or w/e. (But hopefully apostates would be far rarer) Trusted 'lay mages' (those in the community) should be allowed to take late stage apprentices on the Keeper/First model, basically home schooling under the same case team, again meaning a healer is available in the community (or a grade A ass kicker) as needed, and that families wouldm't have to be seperated for long (apart from the most dangerous points in training)

Pretty much. Though with the bad stuff (tranquility, harrowing, continuous abuse) weeded out, I'd probably prefer staying in a castle with fancy beds and a large library to playing doctor in my homevillage

[Vilegrim]

DrGulag wrote...

No. Policing mages, yes. Execute outlaw mages, yes. But the "tranquil solution" is inhuman. It's unacceptable to force such a fate on a human being just for being what they are.

But :

Policing has failed.

The Circle of Magi have rebelled and are no more. This is the situation after Dragon Age 2.

Execute all of them?

Policiing did fail, the Templars set out to make it fail.  Execute all the templars.

[TheCreeper]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Hitler had a final solution for the Jew problem... does anyone think that was an ok idea?

despite the similarities the comparison doesn't exactly work. Jews can't shoot fire using the power of their mind (well Mossad agents might be able to do that.)

[Retserof]

Vilegrim wrote...

Policiing did fail, the Templars set out to make it fail.  Execute all the templars.

I support the gentleman's motion.

[Vilegrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
hmm, or better of the mundane family members (an employment choice ofc) of the mages in a different circle, so Carver joining the Templars and being placed in the Orlaisin circle (for instance) or Fereldan.   With Mage Hawke in Kirkwall chantry. 

People who have grown up around mages, basically so don't have the religous fear, but also seperate enough to strike down abominations.

Any mage is allowed to live seperatly from the local circle, but is liable for weekly 'check ups' by an enchanter/templar 'case team' to check on how they are doing, this also places loyal mages in place in case of darkspawn attack or apostate or w/e. (But hopefully apostates would be far rarer) Trusted 'lay mages' (those in the community) should be allowed to take late stage apprentices on the Keeper/First model, basically home schooling under the same case team, again meaning a healer is available in the community (or a grade A ass kicker) as needed, and that families wouldm't have to be seperated for long (apart from the most dangerous points in training)

Pretty much. Though with the bad stuff (tranquility, harrowing, continuous abuse) weeded out, I'd probably prefer staying in a castle with fancy beds and a large library to playing doctor in my homevillage

But the choice should be THERE even if no one takes it the freedom to choose it should excist.

[DrGulag]

Policiing did fail, the Templars set out to make it fail. Execute all the templars.

As a normal civilian the templars are pretty much the only line of defense unless your living in Qunari territory or something.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't allow mages to live without supervision and not expect destruction and countless dead civilians. It only takes one bad apple.

And you can't place mages under tight scrutiny without them feeling oppressed and causing a rebellion (which has happened after Dragon Age 2).

And Kirkwall was an exception not the rule when it comes to persecuting people. They simply refuse to live under restrictions so it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 10:18 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

TheCreeper wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Hitler had a final solution for the Jew problem... does anyone think that was an ok idea?

despite the similarities the comparison doesn't exactly work. Jews can't shoot fire using the power of their mind (well Mossad agents might be able to do that.)

And trying to destroy their souls will only ensure that they will shoot fire at you.

These topics never make sense to me, you say that mages are dangerous so you're first reaction is to do something that will only ensure that they will be hostile? Honestly if you think someone can be dangerous when they feel trapped or dooomed than why try and trap or doom them more?

[Vilegrim]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Hitler had a final solution for the Jew problem... does anyone think that was an ok idea?

despite the similarities the comparison doesn't exactly work. Jews can't shoot fire using the power of their mind (well Mossad agents might be able to do that.)

And trying to destroy their souls will only ensure that they will shoot fire at you.

These topics never make sense to me, you say that mages are dangerous so you're first reaction is to do something that will only ensure that they will be hostile? Honestly if you think someone can be dangerous when they feel trapped or dooomed than why try and trap or doom them more?

that gets lamp shaded massively in Wizards First Rule by Zed.... and it's AWESOME. (pity about most of the rest of the series)

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...



But the choice should be THERE even if no one takes it the freedom to choose it should excist.

The more freedom you allow, the more likely things are to go wrong - the more mages only have real contact with those mundane that are pro magic anyway, the less likely the thing is to fall apart because some douchebag mage (Grace, I'm looking at you) went axe crazy, and the less likely some innocent mage is to get lynched because someones cow died. After all, having someone check daily or weekly isn't exactly freedom either, but gives the potential abomination six days head start. Letting a mage go see his family for a weekend, with two templars that escorted him here waiting in the Inn on the other side of the road, that's much more likely to work.

[Vilegrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...



But the choice should be THERE even if no one takes it the freedom to choose it should excist.

The more freedom you allow, the more likely things are to go wrong - the more mages only have real contact with those mundane that are pro magic anyway, the less likely the thing is to fall apart because some douchebag mage (Grace, I'm looking at you) went axe crazy, and the less likely some innocent mage is to get lynched because someones cow died. After all, having someone check daily or weekly isn't exactly freedom either, but gives the potential abomination six days head start. Letting a mage go see his family for a weekend, with two templars that escorted him here waiting in the Inn on the other side of the road, that's much more likely to work.

Hence the Keeper/First model.  2 mages not one, if one goes abomination the other can at least slow him down, and 2 mages is alot harder to lynch. 

[Ngoctu]

it's obvious that mage can only be selfish think if superhero would act the same they have superpower but strangely they try to help people and sacrify their own freedom for the good of the people

great power = great responsability

mage on the other end are always selfish they are not ready to sacrify one inch of anything for the good of the people and even superhero dont choose to be superhero but they kind of understand that they cant do what they want because they are not "the same" as human...

[DrGulag]

Hence the Keeper/First model.  2 mages not one, if one goes abomination
the other can at least slow him down, and 2 mages is alot harder to
lynch. 

Doesn't work.


It seems like mages are utterly useless in situations where a demon takes over, because the possessed practitioner receives a boost directly from the fade. For example that pride demon is huge and mean! Just look at that monster DA2, how is one guy supposed to slow it down let alone stop it?

It took one mage to bring down the whole Circle in Ferelden.

Templars have means to resist magic and they can fight somewhat efficiently. Trained soldiers.

Mages are more like scholars. They freak out when blood starts dripping through the ceiling just like I would.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 10:33 .

[Lithuasil]

Vilegrim wrote...




Hence the Keeper/First model.  2 mages not one, if one goes abomination the other can at least slow him down, and 2 mages is alot harder to lynch. 

Possibly - now to break the grip the chantry has on the circles, organize the mages, and establish the new rules, with the templars gone rogue trying to kill every mage out there. What could possibly go wrong 

[Rawke]

TheCreeper wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Hitler had a final solution for the Jew problem... does anyone think that was an ok idea?

despite the similarities the comparison doesn't exactly work. Jews can't shoot fire using the power of their mind (well Mossad agents might be able to do that.)

Not to mention that it's quite the difference if you tranquilize (i.e. not kill) a few hundred(?) potentially dangerous individuals or just commit genocide.

The tranquil solution is not an option IMO. First of all, there are apostates. That means, by tranquilizing all mages in grasp of the templars, the remaining mages would only be more inclined to use violence (---> better go down fighting).  You either try to solve the conflict with as little casualties as possible and preferably change the whole circle institution, or you kill them all.

Personally, I think the only real lasting solution would be to just kill each and every mage. As long as there are circles and restrictions, there will be unrest. As soon as mages get too much freedom, you have another Imperium on your hands (a few corrupted mages without supervision would be enough). The way I see it, mages would not only need to be tested on their general ability to withstand temptation, but also on their whole character. And even that doesn't guarantee something goes wrong. Who here wouldn't do everything to survive? It's the strongest human instict (well, right after reproduction), and if I had the choice between being executed for sure or possibly end up as abomination by using powers to great to handle or blood magic, I'd always choose the latter. And I'll take my chances and say that evaluating each and every mage even more thorough then it's already being done is pretty impossible. Their can never be full certainty. Tranquilizing is senseless if you do it to everybody and not to allow individuals to live one. I say solve the problem once and for all. It's cruel, yes, but it's for the greater good. A compromise would be to have even more challenging tests than just the harrowing (or regular harrowing for everybody). Either way, it's impossible to grant mages more freedom without endangering every other citizen of Thedas.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I will simply state that the mages in Tevinter are able to govern themselves and their country is the oldest and arguably the most stable in Thedas.

(Please keep in mind I'm not saying their ethics are alll that great I'm simply stating that a country ruled by mages without someone holding some leash has produced a fully functional and stable country that has lasted for thousands of years)

That is evidence that the world can go on turning with mages not being put in a jail cell for the rest of their lives.

[Lithuasil]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I will simply state that the mages in Tevinter are able to govern themselves and their country is the oldest and arguably the most stable in Thedas.

(Please keep in mind I'm not saying their ethics are alll that great I'm simply stating that a country ruled by mages without someone holding some leash has produced a fully functional and stable country that has lasted for thousands of years)

That is evidence that the world can go on turning with mages not being put in a jail cell for the rest of their lives.

Well, aside from the constant powerstruggle, the slavery, the bloodmagic, and that whole darkspawn business, the imperium is relatively stable

[DrGulag]

I will simply state that the mages in Tevinter are able to govern themselves and their country is the oldest and arguably the most stable in Thedas.

(Please keep in mind I'm not saying their ethics are alll that great I'm simply stating that a country ruled by mages without someone holding some leash has produced a fully functional and stable country that has lasted for thousands of years)

That is evidence that the world can go on turning with mages not being put in a jail cell for the rest of their lives.

It is relatively stable, I'll give you that.

"Look at the Tevinter Imperium. Solid proof that magic practitioners can live as productive members in our society."

Yeah, I wouldn't use it as an argument in the elections.Might not go down well with the normal folk lol.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[TheCreeper]

Lithuasil wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I will simply state that the mages in Tevinter are able to govern themselves and their country is the oldest and arguably the most stable in Thedas.

(Please keep in mind I'm not saying their ethics are alll that great I'm simply stating that a country ruled by mages without someone holding some leash has produced a fully functional and stable country that has lasted for thousands of years)

That is evidence that the world can go on turning with mages not being put in a jail cell for the rest of their lives.

Well, aside from the constant powerstruggle, the slavery, the bloodmagic, and that whole darkspawn business, the imperium is relatively stable

Besides the blood magic that also describes Orlais pretty well too.

[Lithuasil]

To be fair, as I was trying to imply with above statement - as a mage, I'd much rather be locked up in a circle that's run by sane people as opposed to templars, rather then living in the tevinter imperium, presented with the choice between imprisonment and migration.

[Pileyourbodies]

Retserof wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Policiing did fail, the Templars set out to make it fail.  Execute all the templars.

I support the gentleman's motion.

So if a dectective fails to catch a killer we should execute all the cops in his division?

[hismastersvoice]

Lithuasil wrote...
Well, aside from the constant powerstruggle, the slavery, the bloodmagic, and that whole darkspawn business, the imperium is relatively stable

It's so not like our good old Ferelden or Free Marches...

...oh, wait.

[Lithuasil]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Retserof wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Policiing did fail, the Templars set out to make it fail.  Execute all the templars.

I support the gentleman's motion.

So if a dectective fails to catch a killer we should execute all the cops in his division?

Provided the killer in question was mexican, and said division of cops goes AWOL to exterminate the entire mexican populace... well, YES?

[Nathan Redgrave]

You're confusing mage rebellion with mage desperation, there. Most of the blood magic hijinx going down in Kirkwall was desperation. If the Circles of Magi were feeling ballsy enough to actively rebel, odds are they did it more with the magic they already knew, and if any of them are dipping into blood magic, it's probably more controlled and deliberate than Kirkwall's Circle, which was faced with a very sudden threat of annulment.

In short, abominations? Doubtful. Even mages themselves don't like those things, and would take steps to control them. More likely scenario: some Circles are more hardhanded with their methods, others seek freedom of a more honorable sort. A lot of mini Tevinter Imperiums and quite a few Circles of Wynne.

EDIT: It's also mentioned that the Templars were rebelling, as well. So there are probably a large number of Thrasks involved.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 17 mars 2011 - 11:00 .

[Retserof]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Retserof wrote...
I support the gentleman's motion.

So if a dectective fails to catch a killer we should execute all the cops in his division?

If the division exists solely to kill people when they run away from oppression, by all means.

[DrGulag]

In short, abominations? Doubtful. Even mages themselves don't like those things, and would take steps to control them. More likely scenario: some Circles are more hardhanded with their methods, others seek freedom of a more honorable sort. A lot of mini Tevinter Imperiums and quite a few Circles of Wynne.

The ending quote from Varric :

"The Circles rose up and set the world on fire"

Doesn't sound really peaceful or controlled to me. It sounds exactly like Kirkwall. Countless people dying, abominations running and so on.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 11:02 .