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[Retserof]

DrGulag wrote...

The ending quote is :

"THE CIRCLES ROSE UP AND SET THE WORLD ON FIRE"

Doesn't sound really peaceful or controlled to me.

Humorous hyperbole, perhaps?

Besides, if the world is literally on fire at this point, it sort of renders this discussion rather moot, now doesn't it?

Modifié par Retserof, 17 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[DrGulag]

I wonder how this whole thing will play out in the upcoming expansions and games.

We had one game where the mages were rather sympathetic and now the second one where most of them are dangerous lunatics.

As an average citizen I would probably get the hell out and convert to the Qun. I'd rather take my chances with their Samurai-like honor system than do my grocery shopping with abominations walking about.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 11:20 .

[TJPags]

Would I support a trnaquil solution.

No, probably not.  Some mages are pretty much fine citizens.  Wynne comes to mind as an example.  Irving is another.  They may have varying degrees of frustration with their situation, but they don't go crazy, don't try to harm others.

Some are not model citizens.  See, Anders, even in DAA.  Seven escapes?  Think of the resources involved in hunting him down, bringing him back alive, trying to keep him locked up.  See, all the insane blood mages running around Kirkwall.  Sometimes, you have to cut your losses - which means kill those who are too much trouble.

I'd still be in favor of making tranquil those who fail their Hawrrowing, or even giving them a choice - death or be made tranquil.

But for every mage that acts up, or speaks out?   No, not at all.

[barryl89]

As of Origins: No.
But after DA2 I would say go for it.

Even in DA:O you had Jowan resorting to blood magic because he didn't want to be made tranquil. Ironically, that was the reason he wasn't given the harrowing. Though, even Jowan resisted a demon (if you sent him to fight Desire).

[DrGulag]

TJPags. Obviously Wynne had good morals and Irving was a respectable person.

But think of yourself as an average citizen living in Thedas. Knowing what goes on in the Tevinter Imperium. Now the mages have rebelled in order to gain freedom.

I just don't see any middle ground here. At this point it's the Chantry/Templars/Normal citizens vs this movement to free mages from supervision. Dragon Age 2 basically told us to choose a side and that's that.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[errant_knight]

In DA:O, Ferelden mages were presented an being mostly reasonable people, able to resist demons, and for the most part, untempted by blood magic. While some templars were shown as being out of control, the leader of the organization was a reasonable man who had a good relationship with the first enchanter.

In DA2, we see something entirely different. Even harrowed mages turn into abominations with alarming regularity. Almost all of them are blood mages. Most of them are mad as hatters. If this wasn't a Kirkwall abberation, then Thedas has a serious problem. Not only that, but the Templars are entirely correct.

The thing is, I'm not sure this is actually the case, or if this was just over the top for the sake of 'awesome.' Are mages really going to be this bad in future games? Are they really this out of control? If so, what are they doing right in Ferelden that they aren't doing elsewhere?

I'm having trouble putting the lore of DA:O together with the lore of DA2 and having it equal anything other than 'wtf?'

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[Sabariel]

No. Never.

[TJPags]

DrGulag wrote...

TJPags. Obviously Wynne had good morals and Irving was a respectable person.

But think of yourself as an average citizen living in Thedas. Knowing what goes on in the Tevinter Imperium. Now the mages have rebelled in order to gain freedom.

I just don't see any middle ground here. At this point it's the Chantry/Templars/Normal citizens vs this movement to free mages from supervision. Dragon Age 2 basically told us to choose a side and that's that.

Well, I still don't think we need to go make them Tranquil.  If you have someone that dangerous - and it's a valid view that mages in general are that dangerous, certainly after DA2 - then isn't it easier to just kill them?

The only thing you get by making them tranquil is the ability to work with Lyrium.  How many people doing that do you really need?

[errant_knight]

If they turn out to be DA2 dangerous, and not generally like they are in DA:O, then the templars are right. If that is true, then they can't be allowed outside Templar supervision. Even harrowed mages were all turning into abominations, and my Hawke seemed to be the only mage in Kirkwall who wasn't a bloodmage or an abomination. It was ridiculous--and scary as hell for the average joe. I think making them tranquil unless the ask for is cruel and unusual as mentioned above. If they really are this bad, then I don't see any alternative to it being the circle or death. Think is, it wasn't like that in Ferelden, so what gives??

[DrGulag]

I'm having trouble putting the lore of DA:O together with the lore of DA2 and having it equal anything other than 'wtf?'

You're right errant_knight. It feels like a mess.

In Origins I felt like the majority of mages were decent people except for the Tevinter Imperium which was basically this dark nation with blood magic and all that. People seemed to be rather content with their lives in the Circle.

But now everyone is suddendly rebelling all over Thedas (I assume in Ferelden too, under Alistair's rule) and causing havoc eventhough Kirkwall was supposed to be a special case.

[DrGulag]

*Double post* Sorry.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[Elystia]

I personally do not like the Tranquil solution. Hawke and Anders understood this when Anders friend was turned Tranquil and Anders replied with killing him because he did not want to leave him like that. His friend asked to be killed as well. 

If it was someone I loved, I could not bear the thought of my loved ones stripped of all feelings. It would be like visiting my grandmother in a home and she has alzheimers disease and could not remember me visiting or had no feeling one way or the other about it. I can not do it.

I know that most mages become abominations with demons telling them what to do and I firmly believe they should be punished for their crimes if they in fact killed innocents.

[Kerilus]

Let's just say there're people in this forum that I'm glad is not in the government.

[Lithuasil]

Kerilus wrote...

Let's just say there're people in this forum that I'm glad is not in the government.

That's a statement I'd sign regarding every single site on the entire internet

[erilben]

I don't know why anyone would ever think killing or turning all mages tranquil is a good idea. You need them to make Grey Wardens.

[TJPags]

erilben wrote...

I don't know why anyone would ever think killing or turning all mages tranquil is a good idea. You need them to make Grey Wardens.

Nah, you got Seneschal Varel.

Wasn't no mage helping him that I was aware of.

[erilben]

TJPags wrote...

erilben wrote...

I don't know why anyone would ever think killing or turning all mages tranquil is a good idea. You need them to make Grey Wardens.

Nah, you got Seneschal Varel.

Wasn't no mage helping him that I was aware of.

You didn't see him make that blood drink. According to Alistiar, you need lyrium, mages, darkspawn and something else to make it. Also Duncan says before the Joining in Origins, that he's got the Circle mages preparing.

Modifié par erilben, 18 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[TJPags]

erilben wrote...

TJPags wrote...

erilben wrote...

I don't know why anyone would ever think killing or turning all mages tranquil is a good idea. You need them to make Grey Wardens.

Nah, you got Seneschal Varel.

Wasn't no mage helping him that I was aware of.

You didn't see him make that blood drink. According to Alistiar, you need lyrium, mages, darkspawn and something else to make it. Also Duncan says before the Joining in Origins, that he's got the Circle mages preparing.

Yes, and we're also told the joining combination and ritual is a secret known only to Grey Wardens . . . .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Op.
No, I would not support the Tranquil solution. Because I see it as a phenomenal waste, first (without mages, Thedas would be enlightened by the Qunari right now). Second, I feel it excessive and unnecessary. And I have a problem with the name, reminds me too much of something else, even though it might not be the exact same thing.

[Melra]

I would support it. It would make things much easier and many conflicts could be avoided.

[SmokeyTheBear]

So...

People lose all emotion, thought, and feeling for being born slightly differently?

I don't approve of it, but I approve keeping them at least held back slightly. Maybe not thrown in cages and chained up, or murdered.... But at least keeping them surrouned by templars, like they already are.

They didn't choose to be mages, and they shouldn't suffer for it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...

In DA:O, Ferelden mages were presented an being mostly reasonable people, able to resist demons, and for the most part, untempted by blood magic. While some templars were shown as being out of control, the leader of the organization was a reasonable man who had a good relationship with the first enchanter.

In DA2, we see something entirely different. Even harrowed mages turn into abominations with alarming regularity. Almost all of them are blood mages. Most of them are mad as hatters. If this wasn't a Kirkwall abberation, then Thedas has a serious problem. Not only that, but the Templars are entirely correct.

We have to take into consideration that Meredith's conduct in Kirkwall is dissimilar from Gregoir's.

This is not to put all the blame on Meredith. Obviously, those mages carry a lot of the blame. The city itself does too, as apparently the veil is thin there (might just be a poor excuse). But it's clear from the very start that the system under Meredith was flawed, or more flawed than the others.

Mages really start getting out of control after Act 2, and that's after Meredith starts getting out of control (or atthe same time. Chicken and egg at that point).

So I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. That said, they should have shown at least one prominent moderate mage (they've shown one Templar, and even Cullen). To counter-balance idiots that need to be wiped out like Grace. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 01:36 .

[MorningBird]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

In DA:O, Ferelden mages were presented an being mostly reasonable people, able to resist demons, and for the most part, untempted by blood magic. While some templars were shown as being out of control, the leader of the organization was a reasonable man who had a good relationship with the first enchanter.

In DA2, we see something entirely different. Even harrowed mages turn into abominations with alarming regularity. Almost all of them are blood mages. Most of them are mad as hatters. If this wasn't a Kirkwall abberation, then Thedas has a serious problem. Not only that, but the Templars are entirely correct.

We have to take into consideration that Meredith's conduct in Kirkwall is dissimilar from Gregoir's.

This is not to put all the blame on Meredith. Obviously, those mages carry a lot of the blame. The city itself does too, as apparently the veil is thin there (might just be a poor excuse). But it's clear from the very start that the system under Meredith was flawed, or more flawed than the others.

Mages really start getting out of control after Act 2, and that's after Meredith starts getting out of control (or atthe same time. Chicken and egg at that point).

So I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. That said, they should have shown at least one prominent moderate mage (they've shown one Templar, and even Cullen). To counter-balance idiots that need to be wiped out like Grace. 

Well, there's Bethany, who is by far one of the most level-headed mages in the game.

While not a prominent character, there is also a female Starkhaven mage (originally a member of Grace's group) that manages to evade capture.  She later writes Hawke a letter that implies she's living a normal life outside of Kirkwall free of templar scrutiny thanks to the aid of some good friends, but I don't recall her name at the moment (I think its Jillian.)

While I wouldn't say Gascard is by any means a positive example of mages, he does prove (at least in my game) that blood mages are capable of seeing reason and forsaking their dark ways, changing for the better, though I suppose that's debatable, as he could just as easily have fallen back into his old routine/life after Hawke showed him mercy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes I know, but I want prominent ones. Some we get to talk to early on. I initially through Grace was going to be that, until she became hysterical and stupid. I thought Orsino might be that person, then Harvester shows up.

I personally stand in the middle of the Templar / mage debate, I don't agree with extreme views of either faction (or their supporters here). But I cannot deny that in DA2, Templar individuals were shown in much better light, via prominent Templar characters like Thrask (moderate), Kenan and Cullen ("on the fence").

And since I played a mage, I did not get to explore Bethany though I can tell I'd love her. But still, non-companion moderate mages were needed I think. Even if they are fighting a losing battle.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[_Aine_]

All mages? ! ? Just because they are mages??

No.

I feel it would be admitting my cause was weak to have to eliminate mages just because they have a power that non-mages do not, even one that could be utilized against man. Not everyone who touches power is corrupted by it, though it is easier to become corrupted by power than it is to resist I imagine, for many.

Still, the possibility is not a blanket statement and therefore blanket solutions would likely be unjust. You would suffer losses by moderation. But there is corruption in MANKIND that is there perhaps based on a defect of character or perhaps by a lack of humanity, (however you choose to define it) being a mage or not, blood magic or not - you can become corrupt, regardless. There have been many times in history where power has been corrupted by fear as much as people by power. It rarely ends well, for anyone.

In this particular circumstance, I would rather free a guilty mage with an act of moderation than condemn an innocent due to an act of fear. (there is a good reason I stay away from politics I suppose) ...

Corruption condemns itself eventually. Even the strongest cancer can eventually exterminate itself along with its host. And what if it isn't a cancer, but a genetic anomaly that could do much good? Heal? Cure disease? Strengthen old bones? Extend life? Not such a "tranquil" solution to stunt your own evolution out of fear. It would be a hard thing to deal with, regardless. Much to lose or gain, with either choice.

Modifié par shantisands, 18 mars 2011 - 03:57 .