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Would you support the tranquil solution...


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#101
DrGulag

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All mages? ! ? Just because they are mages??


Not only because they are mages, but because how the situation has developed in Thedas.

You can't let mages live free since then it's either total chaos or another Tevinter Imperium.

The mages refuse live under scrutiny so the Circle doesn't seem to be an option.

I just don't understand why Bioware had to write an ending like this. How come all the Circle of Magi rebelled after Kirkwall eventhough the conditions weren't as bad everywhere?

Maybe Hawke or someone else will be able to negotiate (DLC or Dragon Age 3) with the mages, otherwise it's kill or be killed. 

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 04:22 .


#102
thegreateski

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Would I have supported the Hitler knockoff?

No.

Modifié par thegreateski, 18 mars 2011 - 04:22 .


#103
LobselVith8

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DrGulag wrote...

You can't let mages live free since then it's either total chaos or another Tevinter Imperium. 


Actually, that isn't true, according to the codex entry:

"It is a templar’s place to watch their charges for signs of weakness or corruption, and should they find it to act without hesitation for the good of all. That this occasionally leads to charges of tyranny and abuse is, according to the Chantry, a price that must be paid for the security the templars offer.

Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

The Chasind tribes, the Dalish clans, and the nation of Rivain have free mages (not to mention the town of Haven), and none of those societies are another Tevinter Imperium.

DrGulag wrote...

I just don't understand why Bioware had to write an ending like this. How come all the Circle of Magi rebelled after Kirkwall eventhough the conditions weren't as bad everywhere?


Clearly, they were bad enough that the mages wanted to be emancipated from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 mars 2011 - 04:22 .


#104
Denizen89

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I would still side with the mages, Templars and the chantry need to be reformed and taken out of worldly politics.

#105
Pileyourbodies

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Chasind are savages living in the wilds
Dalish clans are gypsies that I'm pretty sure kill all magicals consider a clan only has 2 mages at a time.
Rivaini well according to isabela the witches arn't mages. She said her mom claimed to be a mage/seer but had no abilities just knew the lore.

#106
Icy Magebane

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DrGulag wrote...

All mages? ! ? Just because they are mages??


Not only because they are mages, but because how the situation has developed in Thedas.

You can't let mages live free since then it's either total chaos or another Tevinter Imperium.

The mages refuse live under scrutiny so the Circle doesn't seem to be an option.

I just don't understand why Bioware had to write an ending like this. How come all the Circle of Magi rebelled after Kirkwall eventhough the conditions weren't as bad everywhere?

Maybe Hawke or someone else will be able to negotiate (DLC or Dragon Age 3) with the mages so things go back to the old status quo OR : 

-They will be killed  /  they will enslave entire Thedas and rule again. 

Good question.  I have no idea who took over for Irving (I assume the old man is dead 10 years after the Blight), but there's no way he'd do something that rash.  Actually, Wynne mentioned some kind of Libertarian debate going on at the Cumberland Circle in Awakenings.  Maybe that had something to do with it.

To answer the original question, yeah I'd probably want all the mages dead if I was just Joe Schmoe Kirkwaller.  A regular human, particularly one who was raised to believe in the Chantry's story about the Black City and the Maker, wouldn't hesitate to tranquilize or kill all the mages just to be safe.  It's extremely rare that you meet any peasants in Thedas who don't have something bad to say about mages, or who cower in fear as soon as magic is brought up.  I think it's understandable, if unenlightened.  Better to avoid the possibility of abominations, even if it isn't fair to the victims (innocent/harmless mages).

All that said... I always play as a mage, and until they make a game where I have to be a farmer, I'll keep siding with them.  But you asked about a different scenario so... there it is.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 mars 2011 - 04:29 .


#107
erilben

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Pileyourbodies wrote...

Dalish clans are gypsies that I'm pretty sure kill all magicals consider a clan only has 2 mages at a time.


They do? Is that why Aneirin is not a keeper or first and the Dalish leave him alone?

#108
LobselVith8

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Pileyourbodies wrote...

Chasind are savages living in the wilds


Who aren't like the Tevinter Imperium and have free mages living among them.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Dalish clans are gypsies that I'm pretty sure kill all magicals consider a clan only has 2 mages at a time.


That must explain why Zathrian, Lanaya, and Aneirin were all mages living in the same clan. Not to mention the reference to runaway elven Circle mages fleeting the Circles and escaping into the Dalish clans.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Rivaini well according to isabela the witches arn't mages. She said her mom claimed to be a mage/seer but had no abilities just knew the lore.


That doesn't mean there aren't actual seers living in Rivain when we have this codex and the Genitivi written codex making reference to them. The only point I'm trying to make here is that there are free mages living in societies who didn't turn those societies into another Tevinter Imperium.

#109
Pileyourbodies

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Damn forgot about that...Maybe that was just that one clan. But they do mention that the keeper and her first are the only mages.

#110
DrGulag

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They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."


Lets see. The Dalish keepers. Merrill almost released a demon from the fade which probably would have killed a lot of people without Marethari's and Hawke's intervention.

Tevinter Imperium is a slave state, normal people are used as cattle in order to perform blood magic. Rivain and the Chasind? We don't really have any relevant info on mages over there.

I base my own assumptions on what has happened in the game. The whole "mages without restrictions" thing hasn't really improved the quality of life in Thedas lol.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 04:42 .


#111
Raiil

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No. Or rather, I'd support the tranquil solution in the same way I support chemical castration- it's something you do to convicted sex offenders after proving that they're guilty, or if they ask for it. I wouldn't condone pumping every man and woman out there full of the stuff just because they might do something bad.


One should never be punished for what we might do- all humans should be put to death if that's the line you want to take.

#112
LobselVith8

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DrGulag wrote...

Lets see. The Dalish keepers. Merrill almost released a demon from the fade which probably would have killed a lot of people without Marethari's and Hawke's intervention.


You forgot about the templars who torture a Dalish for information.

DrGulag wrote...

Tevinter Imperium is a slave state, normal people are used as cattle in order to perform blood magic. Rivain and the Chasind? We don't really have any relevant info on mages over there.


We have enough relevant information to know there are societies with free mages that aren't like Tevinter. That's the whole point. Free mages don't mean a repeat of the Tevinter Imperium.

DrGulag wrote...

I base my own assumptions on what has happened in the game. The whole "mages without restrictions" thing hasn't really improved the quality of life in Thedas lol.


Clearly the templar run city-state of Kirkwall was so grand with the mages under their control, given the rape, torture, tranquility, and murder that was being committed by the templars.

#113
Pileyourbodies

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Rape we hear about from 2 people
What torture?
Tranquility is from the same guy that raped someone.
What murder? Killing maleficarum is legal.

#114
MorningBird

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DrGulag wrote...
Not only because they are mages, but because how the situation has developed in Thedas.

You can't let mages live free since then it's either total chaos or another Tevinter Imperium.

The mages refuse live under scrutiny so the Circle doesn't seem to be an option.

I just don't understand why Bioware had to write an ending like this. How come all the Circle of Magi rebelled after Kirkwall eventhough the conditions weren't as bad everywhere?

It's not looking too good. Either the mages calm down and go back to the old status quo OR : 

-They will be killed  /  they will enslave or change the entire world to their own liking. 


I would argue that not all mages are against Chantry scrutiny.  I'd even suggest that the mass majority of mages agree that their powers pose a very real danger and that they need to be regulated.  The 'disagreement' stems from the templars abusing their position (or failing in it) and overstepping their authority in regards to basic human rights.

For starters, the templars need to up their standards when recruiting knights into their order.  People like Alrick, who use their position to threaten mages and spread irrational fear, who undermine the authority of their commander and the chantry by making mages tranquil in secrecy without permission or cause, and who take pleasure in 'the kill', have NO BUSINESS being templars, bottom-line.

Honestly, Alrick didn't set off any 'warning bells' when he was recruited?  Really?  Complaints HAD to have been made against him on behalf of the mages due to his various abuses of power.  Were they just ignored?  Swept under the rug?

Seriously, I'm astounded that he wasn't given the boot, and in the end, HAWKE was the one who had to put an end to him.  The order FAILED the mages in regards to Alrick, and I highly doubt he's the only 'rotten apple' in the bunch.

That being said, any templar who voices 'excitement' at the prospect of cutting down a mage should be reprimanded or expelled from the order.  Their duty is not to 'kill mages for the lolz', and allowing that kind of false image to spread does the entire order a disservice.

If the circle HAS to be a mage's home for the rest of their life, then the templars and chantry have an obligation to make it FEEL like a home.  Instead, many templars bully their charges.  Deny them the right to own pets (Anders.)  They do not provide them with enough opportunities to venture outside or pursue other interests (Emile says he'd never felt the rain or cooked his own meals.)  They do not give their families proper visitation rights (only the privileged few actually get to remain in contact with their families.)  They do not let them raise their own families (they can get married if they have the chantry's permission, but all offspring become the 'property' of the chantry.)

That being said, why CAN'T mages leave the circle after completing their Harrowing?  There are Andrastian chantries all over Thedas, even in the smallest of towns.  It's not like they'd 'disappear' from templar/chantry scrutiny if they were suddenly treated like human beings.  I doubt the good, law-abiding mages would shy away from saying hello to their neighborhood templars if leading their own lives wasn't something to be afraid of.

Why can't they be monitored by templars in the home of their choosing after passing their Harrowing?  Why can't they raise their own children?  Heck, mages would probably hand their children over to the circle WILLINGLY if the 'stay' wasn't forever and if they were allowed to remain in contact (instead of being threatened.)

THESE are the reasons mages rebel against 'the system', because the system, while it needs to be brutal in some areas, is needlessly brutal in others.

The circle WAS a viable option.  The templars, by not choosing their knights more carefully, and failing to provide an adequate environment/life for their charges, ruined it.

#115
LobselVith8

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Pileyourbodies wrote...

Rape we hear about from 2 people
What torture?
Tranquility is from the same guy that raped someone.
What murder? Killing maleficarum is legal.


The torture and murder of the Dalish the templars captured. The templars openly admit it when you head to the Dalish camp (and it leads to a confrontation between Dalish hunters and templar soldiers).

#116
DrGulag

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The point is that allowing mages to live without tight scrutiny leads to chaos.

I think RedCliffe hammered that point across rather well. One boy was possessed by a demon and, depending on your choice, an entire village was enslaved.

And allowing mages to govern themselves hasn't provided positive results in the large scheme of things. If Bioware creates an expansion or another story where we learn about the wonders of Rivain, it's all good. So far it's been one tragedy after another.

A circle of violence and animosity where templars and mages constantly provoke each other.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 05:19 .


#117
Pileyourbodies

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Yeah but those are the Dalish. Noone but Player characters actually cares about the dalish, sad fact but true. Hell most people see them as a nuisance

Phrased that poorly....Just because they torture the Dalish doesn't mean they torture everyone. the dalish are strongly disliked.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 18 mars 2011 - 05:17 .


#118
LobselVith8

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DrGulag wrote...

The point is that allowing mages to live without tight scrutiny leads to chaos.


Clearly that turned out so well for Kirkwall...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Yeah but those are the Dalish. Noone but Player characters actually cares about the dalish, sad fact but true. Hell most people see them as a nuisance

Phrased that poorly....Just because they torture the Dalish doesn't mean they torture everyone. the dalish are strongly disliked.


The templars tortured and murdered an innocent person, and your response is that the Dalish are "strongly disliked?" So are the mages.

#119
DrGulag

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MorningBird  : I would argue that not all mages are against Chantry scrutiny. I'd even suggest that the mass majority of mages agree that their powers pose a very real danger and that they need to be regulated. The 'disagreement' stems from the templars abusing their position (or failing in it) and overstepping their authority in regards to basic human rights......


................THESE are the reasons mages rebel against 'the system', because the system, while it needs to be brutal in some areas, is needlessly brutal in others.

The circle WAS a viable option. The templars, by not choosing their knights more carefully, and failing to provide an adequate environment/life for their charges, ruined it.


Good arguments but....

The templars are basically soldiers and ruthless, because that is their purpose. To be able to kill a mage efficiently if something goes wrong.

People do not trust the mages since almost everyone believes magic practitioners created the blight, corrupted heaven and now the Maker has left his children. It is seen as a disease, the reason why everything has gone down the toilet and people are suffering. Dwarves probably agree, constantly fighting for their own survival against hordes of darkspawn.

Magic hasn't really given anything positive to people of Thedas and as a result people are caged inside the Circles.

It's probably a human thing. Magic and humans don't mix well. The elves had it pretty good with Arlathan. Immortality , peace and all that.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 05:36 .


#120
LobselVith8

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DrGulag wrote...

Magic hasn't really given anything positive to people of Thedas and as a result people are caged inside the Circles.


Except for healing, the existance of the Grey Wardens and a means to end the Blights, defeating the Qunari armies and their advanced technology during the New Exalted Marches...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 mars 2011 - 05:38 .


#121
MorningBird

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DrGulag wrote...

The point is that allowing mages to live without tight scrutiny leads to chaos.

I think RedCliffe hammered that point across rather well. One boy was possessed by a demon and, depending on your choice, an entire village was enslaved.

And allowing mages to govern themselves hasn't provided positive results in the large scheme of things. If Bioware creates an expansion or another story where we learn about the wonders of Rivain, it's all good. So far it's been one tragedy after another.

A circle of violence and animosity where templars and mages constantly provoke each other.


That was the fault of Isolde, a MUNDANE, not mages and demons.  Why?  Because she was a devote Andrastian, and the chantry teaches its people that magic is something to be feared and ashamed of.  Mix that with her love for Connor, and not only do you have a woman who is so ashamed of her son that she will keep his magic A SECRET (which led to the events at Redcliffe), but a woman who's completely terrified of the chantry dragging away her only child to be raised away from home and family in the confines of a tower (which led to the events at Redcliffe.)

If the circles and chantry operated differently, Isolde wouldn't have a reason to be ashamed of Connor or frightened that she'd never get to see him grow into a man.  If the circles and chantry operated differently, Connor would have been educated on demonic possession, and either passed his Harrowing, or failed.  Either way, Redcliffe would have been spared.

You can't blame everything that happened to Redcliffe on mages when the chantry's teachings and circle's practices are directly responsible for the extremes Isolde took to keep her boy.

Modifié par MorningBird, 18 mars 2011 - 05:39 .


#122
Raiil

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Mages haven't given anything to the people of Thedas? Okay, let me just pop my toon over to Kinloch Hold and tell the mages there that hey, you know after you guys were brutalised by that idiot Uldred and your numbers greatly reduced, you marched to save Ferelden and Thedas from the Blight with the Warden?


Never happened.


Mages haven't been given a chance to truly share what they can do. Pound for pound, I'll take a company of decently trained mages over a regiment of every day soldiers.


People should be taken on their individual worth. Condemning an entire part of a civilisation over something they don't have control over is damaging both to the condemned and to society. And just because they are oooo afraid doesn't mean condemning them to life in prison is justified.

#123
DrGulag

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Except for healing, the existance of the Grey Wardens and a means to end the Blights, defeating the Qunari armies and their advanced technology during the New Exalted Marches...


Wasn't it magic that created the blight in the first place.

But you are right when it comes to repelling the Qunari invasion.

#124
LobselVith8

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DrGulag wrote...


Except for healing, the existance of the Grey Wardens and a means to end the Blights, defeating the Qunari armies and their advanced technology during the New Exalted Marches...


Wasn't it magic that created the blight in the first place.

But you are right when it comes to repelling the Qunari invasion.


According to who, the Chantry of Andraste? Considering they hate Tevinter, I'm not surprised they blamed Tevinter (and therefore mages) for what happened. The dwarves were the first to encounter the darkspawn and deal with them, and they don't buy the Chantry's claim at all.

#125
DrGulag

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That was the fault of Isolde, a MUNDANE, not mages and demons.


True eventhough it's hard to blame Isolde  since she was just trying to protect the boy.

It was magic that caused the tragedy. No more, no less.

According to who, the Chantry of Andraste?


It's the only explanation we have and that's what the vast majority believe. And we can see the corrupted city of the maker when we travel to fade as the Warden.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 05:55 .