18 réponses à ce sujet

[A1x2e3l]

I have many questions but I would like to start from the
most important for me: are there any chances that official 3ds Max exporter
plugin/scripts would be released? 



BryanDerksen
wrote:

We use 3DS Max to generate models internally, and
unfortunately the scripts we used to export the models into game-usable form
had some proprietary third-party stuff in them that we weren't able to get
permission to release. We really wanted to, it just turned out to not be
possible.



As the next best alternative, we've released the format information for the
file types the export scripts converted things into. Hopefully the community
will be able to come up with their own exporters without too much trouble from
that.

 



http://social.biowar...42643/1#144646 






Is it possible to release a “crippled” version of these
scripts/plugin without any proprietary third-party stuff. Is that “stuff” so
crucial for in-game functionality of main model/actor types like skinned models
(body/armor/clothes), PC/NPC animations, creatures?




I know that Tazpn is working on FBX converters.




Thank you.

 

[A1x2e3l]

Silence. Very interesting.

I am puzzled: every game/game engine that seriously relies on modding community has released official exporters for 3ds Max and other widely used 3D modelers – e.g. Epic Unreal 2/3 (regularly updated ActorX for 3ds Max, Maya, XSI); Valve Source (Half-Life 2) and CryENGINE 2/Sandbox.(Crysis) – export plugins for available for free Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool 7.5 (supports also FBX format export):



http://usa.autodesk....7&siteID=123112



Moreover, NWN2 was “equipped” with 3ds Max official exporters.



Sooner or later programming genius Tazpn will find a solution (I know his excellent work on other projects). However, reverse engineering by definition cannot provide better results compared with original.



Suggested “crippling” of exporters was used in the past e.g. Bethesda Softworks has significantly modified original NDL NetImmerse 3ds Max exporter for Morrowind modding community (3ds Max TESExporter).



Please, understand my frustration: I bought the game exclusively for it’s modding potential hoping that it would be officially equipped at least in the same way NWN2 was (Toolset, exporters, 3ds Max examples/templates, documentation/tutorials).

[Astorax]

You assertion that every game does this is fundamentally flawed.



I could research to find more, but I know at the very least, that NWN did not release an "official" exporter...it was community created and worked just fine.



Two of the three companies you mentioned make the majority of their income from their engine, not their games (CryEngine and Unreal) so it's in their best interest to have tools updated that go with their product. It would be financial suicide NOT to.



Legal issues surrounding getting 3rd party software available to be released is a nightmare and generally speaking, not worth it when you can rely on the community to do it for you. Reverse engineering a model's file format is often the hard part, but Bioware has made their model file format readily available to anyone that wants them.



Releasing a crippled version of an exporter is something to consider when the final version of the model is in a binary format which is difficult to reverse engineer as was the case with Morrowind's model format. The problem there was it wasn't really possible to reverse engineer the binary format.

[Pyro_Monkey]

I just find it strange that the ability to mod this game was so hyped by the devs, even going so far as to release a preliminary modding tool before the game was released. and yet when the game finally comes out, they cripple the efforts of modders..

[A1x2e3l]

Well, I would like not to start unproductive polemic, just few remarks:

1. I have never said that “every game does this”.
2. Epic has released an exporter plugin for specifically for Unreal Tournament (a game not an engine plus Max file models and animations) for the free version of Maya PLE as well as ActorX for 3ds Max. Crysis is a game BTW either.
3. Do you believe that Emergent Game Technologies (popular Gamebryo engine) are committing “financial suicide” by NOT releasing to the broad public their exporter plugins? This company does not produce games at all.

At the end of a day you are fine without official exporter and I am not. I am mainly interested in skinned models, animated creatures, and PC/NPC animations. I have failed to find any released/usable formats for such models. I would be very grateful to you if you point in the right direction.

I worked with reversed engineered plugins for years and know very well their capabilities. For simple things they could be fine but for more serious models this is a real nightmare (particles, animated constructions, complex rigs, etc.).
Anyhow, I thought that it would be reasonable to ask for a “crippled exporter version”. But there is no interest to that or even a “negative” response in the community, so be it, I am making my conclusions.



Dear lady, modders have enough what to, community programmers
as well e.g. importers and exporters for newer 3D software versions (game was
created with Max8, the latest release is Max2010) or other packages e.g.
Blender. I am not complaining, and ready to wait (for what!?), but I do know
the difference between an official exporter and a reverse engineered one very
well.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[tazpn]

Well I suppose you describe me to a degree there and indeed my tools are not up to the caliber of the professional tools. I accept this but I'm getting better. I actually think my use of FBX toolkit is helping quite a bit as it is a professional import/export format and I dont have to worry as much about it. Pretty sure it handles the animation interpolation and all of that. Not saying its great either as I dont think it is but probably still better than what I would eventually release in a vacuum.



I dont agree that its financial suicide but an official exporter would probably make thing much easier in the long run.

[ChewyGumball]

Epic released an exporter for unreal engine models. Unreal tournament uses unreal engine. The same thing for Crysis. You are correct that community made exporters are not always as good as official ones, however it goes both ways. The community may make something even better than what bioware might have released simply because the community has all the time it wants to devote to projects.

Since there is no official exporter, and there is not much chance of one in the future, all you can do is wait until the community produces something. It hasn't been very long since the editor was released, these things take time.

[A1x2e3l]

Tazpn, I am using your Morrowind/Oblivion Max plugins every day, they have changed my modding life (RL as well). Your work is totally professional, but if a brilliant brain surgeon has no appropriate instruments and information about the case it is difficult to expect good operation results.

FBX/collada is a good generic compromise but it has as you have pointed yourself many problems. I have faced serious difficulties with exporting/importing animated meshes with it in the past. I am simple scared of it.

[A1x2e3l]

“The community may make something even better than what bioware might have released simply because the community has all the time it wants to devote to projects.”



Honestly I have never seen such examples. Developers have all information, and they are a team of paid professional working all day long for years on the subject. On the other hand, there are few programmers here and they working on separate projects.

But I agree that it is, probably, too early to expect something. I wanted only to raise a question about such possibility/necessity. Yes, what’s left is to wait.

[Adinos]

As far as I understand, BioWare originally intended to include a 3DS Max exporter, although the community would still have had to create export tools for other 3D programs.



Although I don't know the details of the legal issues that came up, my understanding is that BioWare's exporter used some third party software that they were not allowed to redistribute.



Last month BioWare started giving some people the information necessary to write export tools, and over the coming weeks and months you should be getting tools capable of exporting most models (although there might be issues with cloth meshes and animation for a while). Those things just take time.

[Martin E]

Having had a bit of experience with some other scripts etc. often the 3rd party elements are so embedded into the export process that dissassembling and removing them is so much harder. ie helper objects in max autocreating dummies, linkages, RTT etc.
The 'official' export scripts for NWN1 (from memory) were release after the community had generated a better version, so it was somewhat redundant.
With DA:O Bioware have done the next best thing, which is to release the file format information to allow the community (or rather those very gifted somewhat masochistic fellows - Adinos and Tazpn) to develop them.
As for the hype from Bioware - I believe that was centred around the toolset, not custom content such as new models, animations etc. - although these could be developed by the community after the necessary tools have been reverse engineered.

Hey Astorax
Martin

Modifié par Martin E, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[Ziroc_IronworksForum]

Does DA engine use that crappy plugin 'Granny3D' ? If so, we're just as screwed as we were with NWN2. I have hope for modding with DA, but it's shaky at the moment..

[A1x2e3l]

Does DA engine use that crappy plugin 'Granny3D' ?

Are you talking about Max exporter plugins? If yes, than
not. “Crappy” is better than nothing.

[ChewyGumball]

I have decided that instead of doing a converter from something like an obj or 3ds, i'll just write a script in max. I have no previous experience in maxscript but it looks pretty easy to pick up. Not only will this fix some issues with export formats not exporting everything needed, but also eliminates a step in the whole process. The only problem will be for people using a different program like maya or blender as it will be 3dsmax dependant.

[ngen]

ChewyGumball wrote...

I have decided that instead of doing a converter from something like an obj or 3ds, i'll just write a script in max. I have no previous experience in maxscript but it looks pretty easy to pick up. Not only will this fix some issues with export formats not exporting everything needed, but also eliminates a step in the whole process. The only problem will be for people using a different program like maya or blender as it will be 3dsmax dependant.

That would indeed be awesome if you could do that!

[ablaine]

ChewyGumball wrote...

I have decided that instead of doing a converter from something like an obj or 3ds, i'll just write a script in max. I have no previous experience in maxscript but it looks pretty easy to pick up. Not only will this fix some issues with export formats not exporting everything needed, but also eliminates a step in the whole process. The only problem will be for people using a different program like maya or blender as it will be 3dsmax dependant.

Love.

[Astrid Bashir]

or Bioware is worried how the game will look after people start throwing in 3D garbage



on the other hand it would be so nice to have an exporter at least for static objects.

It is sad to find out that my enthusiasm had to end abruptly.

I was thinking of awesome new dungeons and environments



cheers!

[Adinos]

Astrid Bashir wrote...
on the other hand it would be so nice to have an exporter at least for static objects.

Well, you basically have that now (with tazpn's tools)  - and support for animated models is improving.