42 réponses à ce sujet

[Jubez187]

Been browsing some of the discussion in this board and a lot of people are saying that at 2h Warrior can out-tank or tank just as well as a SnS warrior.  Isn't the 2h warrior naturally more squishy without the shield?  I understand that both can taunt but I  would assume the armor difference would make it so you die in 2 seconds.  Also, SnS tree has the skill where you take less damage from the front, seems useful as well.

Anyone care to explain?  I'm pretty new to the DA series so I apologize if this is a super-noob question haha.

[Loc'n'lol]

The shield's armor boost isn't that great, the 2-handed warrior can keep more attention on himself simply by damaging more people, and err... if you micro your tank to get out of the way of enemy attacks instea of relying on stats alone, then you can avoid most things.
I blame Bioware for using the painfully slow 2 hander animation from Origins on AI opponents in DA2. (worst offender IMO) They should at least have sped it up to reasonable levels.

[SuicidalBaby]

You don't actually "tank" as a 2 hander, you kite if anything. Bouncing between targets setting up lines of enemies or piles to use your main abilities.  A 2h tank should only be taking damage from ranged sources it has taunted or haven't been cut in half yet.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 17 mars 2011 - 10:37 .

[Graunt]

I really don't get how anyone can think a Two-Handed Warrior is superior...on Nightmare.  Mostly because the AI is just so fantastically awful that your companions will randomly do really stupid things, or just stand there doing nothing, or be in your way so much that you'll either be killing them quite often, or you'll be pausing the game every time you want to use a special ability.  Kind of defeats the purpose of the build.  In certain situations the damage is just crazy and you can wipe out the screen quickly, but then other times it works just like Walking Bomb.  Not worth the hassle, but that's all thanks to the terrible AI.

Aveline just sucks if you go for the "typical" SnS build, but if you go mostly Vanguard and grab Imp Shield Bash you can have mostly controlled staggers, and something WILL be staggered for each cooldown you have that can use it.  Hemorrhage deals 2800 damage to everything that's staggered at the level you can get it (at 32 Magic, which is enough to get the better ACT 2 staves), Chain Lightning and Fist of the Maker also abuse stagger.  With a Two-Handed build you can technically have more staggers at once, but it's so random that you can't rely on it, plus most of the Two-Handed staggers say they only work against "Normal" creatures, while Shield Bash works on everything.

Of course, if you don't play on Nightmare, it would be hard to argue a reason to not go Two-Handed over SnS.

Modifié par Graunt, 17 mars 2011 - 10:56 .

[Jubez187]

Thanks for the feedback. Right now I'm using Hawk as a SnS tank, Fenris as a 2 hander DPS, Varric as ranged DPS/crowd control, and ander's is pretty much 100% supportive. It works pretty well, especially with the fact I'm playing on hard and have little DA experience. I feel that I'm not taking advantage of everything I should be (like cross class combos) and picking which skills to learn is pretty hard cause I can never tell how useful they are going to be just from reading the description.

[Graunt]

Jubez187 wrote...

Thanks for the feedback. Right now I'm using Hawk as a SnS tank, Fenris as a 2 hander DPS, Varric as ranged DPS/crowd control, and ander's is pretty much 100% supportive. It works pretty well, especially with the fact I'm playing on hard and have little DA experience. I feel that I'm not taking advantage of everything I should be (like cross class combos) and picking which skills to learn is pretty hard cause I can never tell how useful they are going to be just from reading the description.

If you are playing below Nightmare: Virtulent Walking Bomb is the best spell in the game for crowds.
If you are playing on Nightmare: Virtulent Walking bomb is so situational you may as well not bother, especially because the enemies that get hit with it will run directly towards your group.
On any difficulty, Chain Lightning (upgraded) is the single most powerful spell for the requirements that uses stagger.  Literally everything but elites will explode from it.
On any difficulty, but particularly Nightmare: Upgraded Haste is flat out phenomenal.
On any difficulty, but particularly Nightmare: Force is the best Mage specialization hands down.

Most of the class combos aren't worth it outside of the staggers and *maybe* one Brittle if your Hawke is the Rogue.  The Disorient from Pinning Shot has never worked, and it's a waste of skill points to grab a skill that ONLY disorients mostly because Rogues have low stamina and should be going for threat transfer/threat reduction moves if they aren't going for pure damage abilities.

[MColes]

SnS shield is the better tank, but there comes a ceilling - the point when you're not worried abotu survival anymore. That's when 2h becomes really good, because so far my only issue has ever been about getting threat, cause taunt is on such a bloody long cooldown. On Nightmare though, the biggest problem with 2h tanking, is the friendly fire on your AoEs.

[jb00gy]

I run a 2h tank with 2 mages. Both mages have barrier.

If I allow my tank to get to 50% hp and alternate barriers on him, not only does he tank like a pro, but he gets all the damage buffs from Berserker as well.

[Marionetten]

Graunt wrote...

I really don't get how anyone can think a Two-Handed Warrior is superior...on Nightmare.

Easy. Whirlwind plus Chain Lighting. Try it and you'll never look back. Two handed warriors survive better by slaughtering everything faster. Sure, your average sword and board warrior can get an asinine amount of survivability but their damage output is absolutely terrible by comparison. Yeah, you won't die. But are you really as useful to the party as the guy chopping heads while tanking?

I've tried both Fenris and Aveline extensively... and Fenris outdoes her in just about every scenario. With Scythe he can intercept and destroy ranged opponents before they can become a real threat. With Mighty Blow he can completely destroy bosses once they're rendered brittle by Petrify. He also keeps aggro way better due to his absurd damage output whereas Aveline is at the mercy of her aggro generating abilities. If they're on cooldown and someone slinks away to go after that crazy Varric... well, too bad. Fenris? He'll just punch a hole in the guy for ignoring him.

[Wissenschaft]

Tanking is not necessary. Focusing on Burst Damage is so much more effective. Use a rouge with Armistice and Goad to keep Argo only on your warrior. Then use Cleave + Reaper + Might Blow + another AoE (I like Holy Smite since theres just so many demons and mages to fight in DA2).

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 17 mars 2011 - 11:40 .

[Marionetten]

jb00gy wrote...

I run a 2h tank with 2 mages. Both mages have barrier.

If I allow my tank to get to 50% hp and alternate barriers on him, not only does he tank like a pro, but he gets all the damage buffs from Berserker as well.

Barrier is a beautiful spell, isn't it? I love watching Fenris drop down to 10% or so and then toss a barrier on him. Veneer of Calm is positively gamebreaking. 200% damage bonus on a fully upgraded Mighty Blow on a brittle target? Yikes.

Modifié par Marionetten, 17 mars 2011 - 11:48 .

[jweath]

I am not sure a 2H tank is superior it is just a different way. 2H will have the same armor as a tank. The difference is more damage, which draws aggro easier, as compared to less damage taken. So if you say take 3 points a second damage with a shield and do 2 points a second and a 2H can do 3 points a second but takes 4 a second, it might even out. The quicker the foe drops the less damage matter.

This is the same concept of a blitzkreig party where you specialize everyone to damage and rely on potions to heal. The concept is you drop the enemy before they drop you. With SnS and healer you do this defensive and encounters take longer. With a blitzkreig party you aim for more damage and a shorter encounter. So in my opinion it is about style. I like slow slug it out battles with a healer playing the key role. Others want their nuke mage to play the key role. It is up to you.

I think 2H can draw aggro easier they have aoe attacks earlier on allow them to do damage to several enemies and draw them in. On a one to one target they put more damage so they get more aggro that way too. How much damage a character does to that mob is part of determining aggro.

Alternative a sns tank does less damage and concentrates more on CC with things like shield bash and taunts. Sword pummel can act as CC for the 2H tank as well. The 2H has to rely less on taunt but can not take the punishment as easily when surrounded especially if you don't take the defense tree. A SnS tank has to rely more on taunt and bravery or battle synergy but can take the punishment better. Personally, I think both could be about equal which is preferable is if you want a tank who slowly slugs it out or one that is more slice and dice but may take more damage.

Modifié par jweath, 17 mars 2011 - 11:48 .

[XOGHunter246]

I used Fenris my last playthrough he was such a beast now I am going to make my own two handed warrior Aveline is a good tank but does hardly any damage where as fenris can do same job with much more damage the amount of exploding bodies he causes is insane.

[jb00gy]

The beautiful thing about 2h tanking is the more damage you take the more damage you will do. I dont want my 2h tank to maintain 100% hp the entire fight. During a boss fight, I want him to stay around 50% or less.

At 50% hp, my Anders will automatically place an upgraded barrier on me, for 100% damage resistance. Right then I pop Cleave, Barrage, and often Sacrificial Frenzy as well to go bat crazy on the boss. Soon the 100% damage resist barrier will disappear, and Merril will cast hers to give me just a little bit more time with all the damage buffs.

Once I'm out of tricks, its time to either heal or run around and kill all the adds to regen all stamina. Doing this keeps the boss in perpetual Benny Hill chase, since I generated enough aggro to last the group the entire fight. How many times does Aveline lose aggro to a strong nuker?

[bluedevil99]

There are several reasons why s&s 'tanks' are useless in the majority of encounters:

1) S&S tanks are relatively ineffective at holding aggro. "Taunt" does not generate threat, it simply clears the threat table. A 2H warrior is much more effective at actually generating threat due to attacks hitting multiple enemies at once. An s&s tank IS much better at damage mitigation (Aveline is amazing in this regard) but this is irrelevant when mobs are streaming past them, going straight for your damage dealers.
2) Due to long cooldowns on heal and potions, grinding enemies down is often not an option in many fights: you have to outdamage them.
3) Ridiculous knockback on hard+ means, even if your s&s tank holds aggro on MOST enemies, even one of them can decimate your caster(s).
4) The above issues become even worse during frequent fights with multiple waves and numerous enemies per wave. Your tank needs to be able to get to an area and quickly get the attention of multiple enemies so your casters can do their thing. 2H-ers are simply much better at this for reasons given above.
5) And finally, as others have pointed out, your s&s warrior's damage output simply isn't sufficient to take down anything without strong support from casters/ranged. You will outlive them, but if you can't protect your teammates, you are going to lose the war of attrition every time.

[Jubez187]

Yea, all these points make sense to me. I just think it's a same that Bioware made SnS unviable, especially when it should be the best tanking class

[Ci7rus]

S&S tanks need a rogue with goad to hold aggro. I have my rogue use goad on Avaline when she is at 50% stamina and it works well to pick up any enemies that are joining the fight late or have wandered off. Upgraded shield bash and pummel are good for reliable stuns for chain lightning combos which blow up most normal enemies even in nightmare.

2h tanks are fun, but on nightmare they limit your party to ranged attacks, if they get too close a 2h warrior using all the attack buffs like cleave and such will easily kill any mages and rogues that get too close.

[Graunt]

Jubez187 wrote...

Yea, all these points make sense to me. I just think it's a same that Bioware made SnS unviable, especially when it should be the best tanking class

They aren't unviable at all, and people are greatly exaggerating Two-Handed builds.  Considering the group is pretty much setup to buff their damage and keep them alive more than you would need to worry about with SnS, while the SnS can tank without having to kite all the big creatures AND ends up buffing two Mages that are going to clear rooms much faster than a Two-Handed Warrior can.  Don't act like Scythe or Whirlwind don't have relatively long cooldowns and that Warrior auto attack damage without Barrage/Fervor/Haste is any good.

Currently using this:

biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#2kRriQPSwbdB1mRk0Z1zcY (Aveline)
biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#1iShuGqbWgdUIyN1zc (Anders)
biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#mSihuGH1aVwQPrteEsBCv0rP (Hawke)
biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#8RzYoVmktBDH1zoMmk (Varric)

Pretty much any huge wave gets demolished and with barely any damage ever taken.

Also, a topic about SnS damage capability: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/305/index/6608426

Modifié par Graunt, 18 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[ashwind]

Actually my 2-H warrior can tank pretty well. You just need to take some defensive skills like: The 60% elemental resistant sustainable skill + Templar 50% magic resistant and the armor that adds another cumulative 20% damage resistant to him, armor value that is close/around 60% and some other passives and equipment that increase Damage resistant. Complete that with immunity from crits, stun, flank.

On normal mode, I do not recall anything that can hit me for more than 25 damage - mostly hitting me for 6-14 damage (even the high dragon) - and I was affected by the debuff bugs.

[jb00gy]

Graunt wrote...
Don't act like Scythe or Whirlwind don't have relatively long cooldowns and that Warrior auto attack damage without Barrage/Fervor/Haste is any good.

I beg to differ. Auto attack is very very strong, Cleave cooldown is insanely fast, stamina regen is almost always 100% when you kill as much trash as a 2h warrior does, and a smart player will change targets often to maintain a near instant and constant auto attack with each slice doing aoe damage.

Lets say 3 mobs spawn, you Scythe and hit 2, but 1 walks by towards your mages. If you swap to that one, you instantly dash toward him, then swap back to your previous 2 and you instantly dash towards them. Changing targets with tactical pause will keep you attacking faster than your swing speed because a first attack is instant. You can maintain this with ping-ponging across multiple targets and save Scythes and whirlwinds for the bigger groups.

In fact, I rarely mighty blow, opting to save it for brittle targets and mages/rogues.

[ashwind]

jb00gy wrote...

In fact, I rarely mighty blow, opting to save it for brittle targets and mages/rogues.

I notice Mighty Blow is aoe too 

[rumination888]

Watch this video of the Nexus Golem fight and tell me, honestly, that two-handers can tank better than SnS warriors.

Modifié par rumination888, 18 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[ashwind]

rumination888 wrote...

Watch this video of the Nexus Golem fight and tell me, honestly, that two-handers can tank better than SnS warriors.

Honestly, Hawke was running around killing - not the traditional tanking per se. 

Although I havent tried - the video clearly shows that this is not a battle of tanking ability, it is how fast you can clear the spawns before they overwhelm you.

Yes, I honestly believe a 2H warrior can do as well in this battle and would do even better if the mobs spawns in packs or 3.

[rumination888]

ashwind wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Watch this video of the Nexus Golem fight and tell me, honestly, that two-handers can tank better than SnS warriors.

Honestly, Hawke was running around killing - not the traditional tanking per se. 

Although I havent tried - the video clearly shows that this is not a battle of tanking ability, it is how fast you can clear the spawns before they overwhelm you.

Yes, I honestly believe a 2H warrior can do as well in this battle and would do even better if the mobs spawns in packs or 3.

There was no such thing as "traditional" tanking in DA:O, and no such thing in DA2. Even WoW moved away from stand-in-one-spot-like-an-idiot encounters for a long while now(unless your tank was bad). You just never saw it in DA:O because you could spam your way to victory with heals. You need to actually be active in whatever it is you're doing in DA2.

[ashwind]

rumination888 wrote...

There was no such thing as "traditional" tanking in DA:O, and no such thing in DA2. Even WoW moved away from stand-in-one-spot-like-an-idiot encounters for a long while now(unless your tank was bad). You just never saw it in DA:O because you could spam your way to victory with heals. You need to actually be active in whatever it is you're doing in DA2.

In DAO My Arcane Warrior stood there and "tanked" most things... but that is besides the point...

Point is - Kill fast enough before you are overwhelm and 2H warriors can kill just as fast as a SnS but has the advantage of killing clustered enemies even faster,