148 réponses à ce sujet

[WoooDoggie]

Elite Midget wrote...

It does help. It brings you closer to acceptance because really what the few say wont matter compared to what the many want.

What many want is what made ME2 and DA2.

I think you need to expand your internet bowsing capabilities because the many have spoken and unvirsally panned this garbage game.

[Tigerman123]

These complaints about game play being dumbed down just seem nonsensical to me - it was never that complicated of a game to begin with and had a number of exploits and broken classes (AW comes to mind).  The sequel has leveled out the classes and has significantly more challenging combat.

If you wanna see a dumbed down game look to Civ V 

Modifié par Tigerman123, 18 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[ransompendragon]

What I don't understand is why companies feel the need to try to put all genres on all platforms. What is wrong with cRPGs being PC games?

p.s. I just peeked in the Total War forums since Shogun 2 was just released and their fans are as uppity as we are. Besides, isn't it actually a compliment when the fans care enough about your franchise to waste their evenings calling you out?

[Destrega]

if/when consoles figure out a better way to stay up to date than just buy another one, this should not be an issue.

Problem currently is because when a console is first released it is a powerhouse but slowly falls behind that we see these issues. As it stands currently, gaming consoles are comparable to low end gaming pc's because they've been out for a few years now. So in turn, games created with them in mind are going to have shortfalls when they're ported to the pc. Some do this well, others do not.

I'm glad that pc gamers got the high resolution pack for DA2 and some DX10/11 effects which is nice, if the big console makers (right now its Sony and Microsoft) could get together and figure out some sort of Video card upgrade-able console designs for a longer lasting console it would not only help with this, but would definitely help the profit margins by enabling them to delay the upfront cost of new consoles which they usually take a loss on for years following the release despite the high prices.

Modifié par Destrega, 18 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[Myounage]

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of The Betrayer. Even if its OC had its shortcomings, MoTB is a timeless classic on par with the OP's list.

[Kilshrek]

WoooDoggie wrote...

I think you need to expand your internet bowsing capabilities because the many have spoken and unvirsally panned this garbage game.

I think you need to take your own advice and look at the actual reviews. Not too many have said it's "garbage" to be sure. I've played the game and the only real strong criticism I can come up with is that it certainly felt hurried out the door. DA 2 was lots of unfulfilled potential.

[Eberict]

Tigerman123 wrote...

These complaints about game play being dumbed down just seem nonsensical to me - it was never that complicated of a game to begin with and had a number of exploits and broken classes (AW comes to mind).  The sequel has leveled out the classes and has significantly more challenging combat.
If you wanna see a dumbed down game look to Civ V 

... Yeah, as far as watered down and simplified goes, DA2 has nothing on Civ5, although it should be worth noting that Civ5 was redesigned that way in response to Firaxis trying to emulate more closely its previous console port "Civ Revolutions."

I play both console games and PC games, and while I won't say that PC games are 'dying', I will say that multi-platform releases have broken what used to be a very clear cut division for me. For years I've reserved consoles for more casual games with much simpler foci--platformers, JRPGs, and now interactive movies--and relied on PC games to feed a desire for a more robust, complex, and customisable game. The best example--especially when paired with talk of Civ5's dumbing down--for what I mean by 'robust' would probably be Europa Universalis 3, Crusader Kings, or Victoria II. Somehow, DA:O and Baldur's Gate fell into that category, even with their mostly linear storylines, but DA2--though enjoyable--did not. It boiled down to gameplay; it was the kind of game I'd typically play on a console, and not really the kind of game I look to Bioware for.

That said, I'm not sure if I can expect what I once considered a 'PC game' from Bioware now that it is focused on being a multi-platform developer. That isn't a bad thing, but the cavaet for Bioware here, as the lesson learned by Firaxis via Civ5 was, is to remember that gamers do go to them for a certain and different type of game--if we, new and old customers alike, wanted yet another console action platformer, there are many other games that fulfill that role already.

[Cody211282]

Kilshrek wrote...

WoooDoggie wrote...

I think you need to expand your internet bowsing capabilities because the many have spoken and unvirsally panned this garbage game.

I think you need to take your own advice and look at the actual reviews. Not too many have said it's "garbage" to be sure. I've played the game and the only real strong criticism I can come up with is that it certainly felt hurried out the door. DA 2 was lots of unfulfilled potential.

Garbage is to strong of a word, though I have heard "Disapointing" quite a bit.

[Turnip Root]

Kilshrek wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Elaborating on that point further,
certainly not all PC gamers are pirates and I understand PC gamers being
upset that there has been a lack of emphasis on their preferred
platform.  However, do not take it out on console gamers for being
better customers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to flame wars, friend.

One could easily say the used game market is rather detrimental to games in general since developers and publishers don't get a sniff of the sale after the first. Isn't that why EA contrived this online pass thing? I certainly am not taking it out on console gamers, since I have a 360 and happily play the few games I have for it(mostly 360 exclusive though). 

No, you cannot say the same thing about the used game market.  The used game market is what keeps retailers in business and more retailers in business means more outlets available to consumers that also sell new games. 
Obviously publishers prefer consumers buy new games but they know there exists a symbiotic relationship between retailers and publishers and major publishers such as THQ have even admitted this.

If there is any reason why such topics start flamewars it is because people don't like to think that what they do on a regular basis is harmful so they'll do whatever it takes to convince themselves otherwise.  It's like smokers who tell themselves that they'll be fine because they had an uncle who smoked and lived to 90.

Oh yeah, and buying used games is actually legal if that counts for anything.

Modifié par Turnip Root, 18 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[vigna]

End of teh line!

[Cody211282]

Turnip Root wrote...

Kilshrek wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Elaborating on that point further,
certainly not all PC gamers are pirates and I understand PC gamers being
upset that there has been a lack of emphasis on their preferred
platform.  However, do not take it out on console gamers for being
better customers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to flame wars, friend.

One could easily say the used game market is rather detrimental to games in general since developers and publishers don't get a sniff of the sale after the first. Isn't that why EA contrived this online pass thing? I certainly am not taking it out on console gamers, since I have a 360 and happily play the few games I have for it(mostly 360 exclusive though). 

No, you cannot say the same thing about the used game market.  The used game market is what keeps retailers in business and more retailers in business means more outlets available to consumers that also sell new games. 
Obviously publishers prefer consumers buy new games but they know there exists a symbiotic relationship between retailers and publishers and major publishers such as THQ have even admitted this.

If there is any reason why such topics start flamewars it is because people don't like to think that what they do on a regular basis is harmful so they'll do whatever it takes to convince themselves otherwise.  It's like smokers who tell themselves that they'll be fine because they had an uncle who smoked and lived to 90.

Oh yeah, and buying used games is actually legal if that counts for anything.

Your not taking in to account that a lot of people crak their xbox/DS for free games as well. And as far as used games they hurt a sompany as much as pirating, mostly because the companey never seens any money from that sale, thus why we now have day one DLC for most games.

[Mongerty2]

PC gaming is not dying, it is changing.

No longer can a company sell a single player game and expect to make money off of it. This is just the sad truth. The difficulty curve for pirating on a 360 or PS3 is at least high enough to scare away most of the users. PC gamers really just need to find a torrent.

First you have the pirates, who hack these single player games days after release (or before, tbh). Then they make things like DLC available (killing off any reason to buy "signature" editions). How can a company make money off of that? Why would developing for this platform be more attractive than marketing the arguably bigger audience. (looks at DA:O sales....)

Multiplayer games at least require you buy the game or pay the publisher fees. This removes the threat of lost revenue through pirating. They can't do that with DA 2, and if there is any DRM then people flip out. (normally because pirates can remove this anyways). Couple that with the fact that many PC gamers still don't believe that games are worth $60, despite the obviously larger budgets than 10 years ago.

PC games are being changed. If your game is not free and making money off of advertising or microtransactions, then you are SOL. Well, unless you are Blizzard or Valve, who can practically print money through brand recognition.

Sorry about the rant, but I had to...

[Turnip Root]

Cody211282 wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Kilshrek wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Elaborating on that point further,
certainly not all PC gamers are pirates and I understand PC gamers being
upset that there has been a lack of emphasis on their preferred
platform.  However, do not take it out on console gamers for being
better customers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to flame wars, friend.

One could easily say the used game market is rather detrimental to games in general since developers and publishers don't get a sniff of the sale after the first. Isn't that why EA contrived this online pass thing? I certainly am not taking it out on console gamers, since I have a 360 and happily play the few games I have for it(mostly 360 exclusive though). 

No, you cannot say the same thing about the used game market.  The used game market is what keeps retailers in business and more retailers in business means more outlets available to consumers that also sell new games. 
Obviously publishers prefer consumers buy new games but they know there exists a symbiotic relationship between retailers and publishers and major publishers such as THQ have even admitted this.

If there is any reason why such topics start flamewars it is because people don't like to think that what they do on a regular basis is harmful so they'll do whatever it takes to convince themselves otherwise.  It's like smokers who tell themselves that they'll be fine because they had an uncle who smoked and lived to 90.

Oh yeah, and buying used games is actually legal if that counts for anything.

Your not taking in to account that a lot of people crak their xbox/DS for free games as well. And as far as used games they hurt a sompany as much as pirating, mostly because the companey never seens any money from that sale, thus why we now have day one DLC for most games.

I see you ignored my point about the fact that the majority of revenue for major game retail chains comes from used games meaning that if it were not for used game sales, these outlets wouldn't be in business and that means fewer outlets available for consumers.
It's thanks to used game sales that I can't drive 10 miles without running into at least one Gamestop and see a Gamestop at every mall and these places sell new games too.

Console piracy exists no doubt but such methods require modifications that many people don't know how to do and also come with great risks.  Microsoft has bricked thousands of consoles for unauthorized modifications.  Piracy on the PC is consequence free.

[Palando]

Kilshrek wrote...

Palando wrote...

I'd just like to point out that Icewind Dale was crap. Seriously, comparing it to Dragon Age 2 is a joke. I got so bored with the linear plot and repetetive dungeon bashing that I gave up in disgust, and my standards were a lot lower back then. A little bit of perspecive, please.

Emphasis mine. Not to be cruel to DA 2, but 50% the source of your disgust is arguably present in DA 2.

I agree that the dungeon bashing is a little repetitive in DA2, but to claim that it is anywhere near as bad as in Icewind Dale is ludicrous. In Icewind Dale a far higher percentage of your time was spent dungeon bashing, and there was far less variety (surely I am not alone in liking the haunted house).

Dragon Age 2 has its problem to be sure, but as an RPG it is at least an order of magnitude better than Icewind Dale.

[Cody211282]

Turnip Root wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Kilshrek wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

Elaborating on that point further,
certainly not all PC gamers are pirates and I understand PC gamers being
upset that there has been a lack of emphasis on their preferred
platform.  However, do not take it out on console gamers for being
better customers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to flame wars, friend.

One could easily say the used game market is rather detrimental to games in general since developers and publishers don't get a sniff of the sale after the first. Isn't that why EA contrived this online pass thing? I certainly am not taking it out on console gamers, since I have a 360 and happily play the few games I have for it(mostly 360 exclusive though). 

No, you cannot say the same thing about the used game market.  The used game market is what keeps retailers in business and more retailers in business means more outlets available to consumers that also sell new games. 
Obviously publishers prefer consumers buy new games but they know there exists a symbiotic relationship between retailers and publishers and major publishers such as THQ have even admitted this.

If there is any reason why such topics start flamewars it is because people don't like to think that what they do on a regular basis is harmful so they'll do whatever it takes to convince themselves otherwise.  It's like smokers who tell themselves that they'll be fine because they had an uncle who smoked and lived to 90.

Oh yeah, and buying used games is actually legal if that counts for anything.

Your not taking in to account that a lot of people crak their xbox/DS for free games as well. And as far as used games they hurt a sompany as much as pirating, mostly because the companey never seens any money from that sale, thus why we now have day one DLC for most games.

I see you ignored my point about the fact that the majority of revenue for major game retail chains comes from used games meaning that if it were not for used game sales, these outlets wouldn't be in business and that means fewer outlets available for consumers.
It's thanks to used game sales that I can't drive 10 miles without running into at least one Gamestop and see a Gamestop at every mall and these places sell new games too.

Console piracy exists no doubt but such methods require modifications that many people don't know how to do and also come with great risks.  Microsoft has bricked thousands of consoles for unauthorized modifications.  Piracy on the PC is consequence free.

I know the DS is really easy to pirate on, hell I think they sell everything you need on amazon. But the point I was trying to make on used games was from a busness point of veiw, they don't see anything from used games and thats why we have day one DLC that everyone hates.

[didymos1120]

SteelRayne_swe wrote...

But fact is, this is a console game. Many defending and spewing on the OP's post do not even own a pc, and do not even know why us PC gamers feel like we do.

That in bold is hands down the funniest thing in this thread. I'll leave the "why" as an exercise for all the readers posting on this here internet forum.

[Turnip Root]

Publishers obviously prefer consumers buy new games and that's why they offer incentives for it. However, it is stupid to say that used game sales are just as bad as piracy since illegal torrent downloads have never kept a game retail outlet in business.
More game retailers means more access and options for consumers and that's good for the industry overall.

[Tigerman123]

Eberict wrote...

... Yeah, as far as watered down and simplified goes, DA2 has nothing on Civ5, although it should be worth noting that Civ5 was redesigned that way in response to Firaxis trying to emulate more closely its previous console port "Civ Revolutions."

I play both console games and PC games, and while I won't say that PC games are 'dying', I will say that multi-platform releases have broken what used to be a very clear cut division for me. For years I've reserved consoles for more casual games with much simpler foci--platformers, JRPGs, and now interactive movies--and relied on PC games to feed a desire for a more robust, complex, and customisable game. The best example--especially when paired with talk of Civ5's dumbing down--for what I mean by 'robust' would probably be Europa Universalis 3, Crusader Kings, or Victoria II. Somehow, DA:O and Baldur's Gate fell into that category, even with their mostly linear storylines, but DA2--though enjoyable--did not. It boiled down to gameplay; it was the kind of game I'd typically play on a console, and not really the kind of game I look to Bioware for.

That said, I'm not sure if I can expect what I once considered a 'PC game' from Bioware now that it is focused on being a multi-platform developer. That isn't a bad thing, but the cavaet for Bioware here, as the lesson learned by Firaxis via Civ5 was, is to remember that gamers do go to them for a certain and different type of game--if we, new and old customers alike, wanted yet another console action platformer, there are many other games that fulfill that role already.

I'm just annoyed at all the talk of Dragon Age and the RPGs of yesteryear being fiendishly difficult and complex strategy games, when they're not really, in comparison to the games you mentioned or other titles like the Panzer Generals series or even Relic Games.  To me, the strength of Bioware games are the usually excellent (for games) characters and maybe the story, and the hallmark of an RPG as being able to customise your character and the story according to your fancy, I don't see the speed of the combat or people exploding as too important.

You've never played any of the many many simple PC games then, like Doom or C&C?

[Gaius Octavian]

PC gaming isn't dying, Bioware just sold out and will have to pass the torch to more deserving studios who won't bow to the demands of the corporate devil and console users. Also, it is scientifically proven that PC gamers are superior.

[ZDProletariat]

HAHA

Exaggeration much?
Why are people so melodramatic these days?

Modifié par ZDProletariat, 18 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[Turnip Root]

A company that's trying to make money? How dare they!

PC gamers really should be more greatful to console owners. It's thanks to sales of multi-platform games on consoles that a PC version exists at all in the first place.
Ironic that the scourge of PC gamers, consoles is about the only thing keeping PC gaming alive.

[Eberict]

Mongerty2 wrote...
No longer can a company sell a single player game and expect to make money off of it. This is just the sad truth. The difficulty curve for pirating on a 360 or PS3 is at least high enough to scare away most of the users. PC gamers really just need to find a torrent.

I just want to point out that, in Asia at least, the XBox is the most easily pirated of the three platforms. Where I live, you can find XBox game disks sold on the streets, with some merchants even willing to deliver door-to-door by request. One phone call, and Call of Duty arrives at your doorstep. Pirating via PC often requires some dexterity of mind that many PC end users simply do not possess, whereas a prepared .iso of an XBox pirated game can be burned directly to disk and popped into a modified machine. Most consoles sold here (Wii, PSP, 360) are pre-modified, and if the firmware updates, you just need to bring it back to the shop that sold it and they'll flash the new one in for free or a small fee, depending on the store. 

Not condoning this practice, but pointing out that ease of piracy is not the PC's domain alone, so blaming piracy for a shift in developer policy is faulty logic. It would be better to say that multi-platform releases protect the developer from the percentage of sales lost to piracy spread across the board. (Except perhaps PS3, but PS3 piracy has begun here as well.) This need to be multi-platform is what is changing PC gaming, not PC piracy exclusively.

[SirGladiator]

The only numbers Ive seen so far, are from the UK, and those said that 57 percent of DA2's sales were on the 360, 22 percent on the PS3, and 21 percent on the PC, but that those numbers did 'not' include digital PC sales. One would assume that once those numbers get included the PC numbers move well ahead of the PS3, so perhaps before the talk of the 'demise of PC gaming' it would be more relevant to discuss the 'demise of PS3 gaming', which of course wouldnt be accurate either. The fact is that PC gaming is sitll plenty popular, as well it should be, and it always will be. PCs are awesomely powerful, and they're only getting more powerful, as well as cheaper. If anything, PC gaming will grow and continue to grow for a long, long time to come.

[Drogo45]

Hey, oh wow..... A PC Pity Party.

I brought the RAM.

[Eberict]

Tigerman123 wrote...

Eberict wrote...

... Yeah, as far as watered down and simplified goes, DA2 has nothing on Civ5, although it should be worth noting that Civ5 was redesigned that way in response to Firaxis trying to emulate more closely its previous console port "Civ Revolutions."

I play both console games and PC games, and while I won't say that PC games are 'dying', I will say that multi-platform releases have broken what used to be a very clear cut division for me. For years I've reserved consoles for more casual games with much simpler foci--platformers, JRPGs, and now interactive movies--and relied on PC games to feed a desire for a more robust, complex, and customisable game. The best example--especially when paired with talk of Civ5's dumbing down--for what I mean by 'robust' would probably be Europa Universalis 3, Crusader Kings, or Victoria II. Somehow, DA:O and Baldur's Gate fell into that category, even with their mostly linear storylines, but DA2--though enjoyable--did not. It boiled down to gameplay; it was the kind of game I'd typically play on a console, and not really the kind of game I look to Bioware for.

That said, I'm not sure if I can expect what I once considered a 'PC game' from Bioware now that it is focused on being a multi-platform developer. That isn't a bad thing, but the cavaet for Bioware here, as the lesson learned by Firaxis via Civ5 was, is to remember that gamers do go to them for a certain and different type of game--if we, new and old customers alike, wanted yet another console action platformer, there are many other games that fulfill that role already.

I'm just annoyed at all the talk of Dragon Age and the RPGs of yesteryear being fiendishly difficult and complex strategy games, when they're not really, in comparison to the games you mentioned or other titles like the Panzer Generals series or even Relic Games.  To me, the strength of Bioware games are the usually excellent (for games) characters and maybe the story, and the hallmark of an RPG as being able to customise your character and the story according to your fancy, I don't see the speed of the combat or people exploding as too important.

You've never played any of the many many simple PC games then, like Doom or C&C?

Here's a true story: I played Doom when I was younger and more religious and it freaked me out. I put it down for fear that the devil would emerge from my monitor. Feels silly now, but somehow that game frightened me more back then than Amnesia: The Dark Descent does now. I do play the simpler PC games, but mainly prefer such games on a console. Not C&C, though; if I had to use a controller to fumble through what a mouse does better, I'd choke myself with the wire.

I see your point, though, and I do agree that the earlier RPGs were not mastercrafts of complexity or strategy. However, there is a definite difference between Baldur's Gate: Shadows of Amn and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, and that difference is what I mean by 'complexity.' DA2 felt slightly watered down for me because I felt that some of that customisation was missing in the usual 'illusions of control' (equipment, tactical combat, wall-of-text dialogue options) that Bioware previously provided in its fantasy line-up. For me, those illusions of control/complexity are equally important to gameplay and story immersion, which is a real pity since DA2 has what is my favourite cast line-up from Bioware to date. The customisation just... wasn't all there.

Modifié par Eberict, 18 mars 2011 - 05:57 .