57 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

One of the better things about DA2 is that we see the Wardens from the outside looking in. They're....cold and distant. If Bethany becomes a Warden she's the same! Cold and distant.

They have all these secrets and their own agenda.

It was nice to see them like that. If we were to play a Warden it would be simple and easy. Listen to this NPC and do this mission.

Rinse and repeat. But on the outside it's all riddles and shadows.

[Silveryne]

Epics do not always have to have a satisfying ending, or always be about saving the world. Oftentimes they are more about a personal quest of the hero than about saving everyone. See: The Russian "Igor Tale" (Igor dies horribly in battle and the Turks invade! oops!), the Odyssey (about how a man goes through trials and tribulations to get back to his home). Even the epic of Gilgamesh does not have a satisfying, "happy" ending. Gilgamesh never gets his immortality and his best friend dies -- and Gilgamesh is told that he's wasted a lot of his life looking for this immortality, oops! The personal tragedy of these stories contributes to them being great tales. Epics, in short, are more about the hero's journey than the hero's happy ending.

The Dragon Age setting was always billed as a dark, gritty fairy tale for adults. I personally think that having a game where your mother dies and you can't save her is darker and grittier and probably more realistic (the hero won't always show up in time!) than having my warden be able to save everyone. Sometimes, the Witch is going to eat Hansel and Grettel. Sometimes, Little Red Riding Hood is going to be killed by the wolf and the hunter arrives in time too late. Sometimes the hunter will come and little red and he will eat the wolf. Stories about failure, or where a great horror happens, can be either cautionary or more powerful than a happily ever after ending.

Sometimes the drama of the story is such that there is no other resolution beyond character death. We probably don't like it because it reminds us of our own mortality. And heroes are something best left alive. Look at the endings of Lost or Xena, and the backlash from those.

Uh. That all said I agree that women's hands were creepy. When I first saw Bethany's hands I wept forever. I suspect Momma and Papa Hawke broke her hands repeatedly as punishment for practicing magic in front of the templars. Or something.

The worst overall scene in the game for me was the revelation that Orsino had supported the guy who had killed my mother. Even though I had sided with the templars (although I was trying to urge the Knight-Commander to be merciful, spare my sister, etc) that really gave me the validation that I needed to despise the mages. It's been worse on playing through again, when I realized that Orsino's support of Quentin was much deeper than just keeping his research. He had an active interest, and supported Quentin's apprentice. And that was just as gross to me as Meredith's insanity.

[Medivan]

I've been saying it for a little while now. Take DA:O's character development, Dialogue choices, and"drawbacks" from choices and add in DA2's combat system and we'd of had one HELL of a great game. DA:O was a Great RPG, and a decent Action game. DA2 was a Decent RPG and a great action game, just needed to have them combined.

[highcastle]

I'm really not sure why everyone adores the wardens. Yes, they're needed to end a blight. But the blight's over. And the price of admission is pretty steep. Who wants to die after only twenty years? Maybe it's just me, but the moment Duncan shanked Jory pretty much killed my sympathies for the wardens. After that, almost all my characters had to be conscripted. I liked that Hawke was largely just a regular guy who got swept up in events bigger than him. There was nothing spectacular about him, he wasn't part of a secret society, he was just a guy who helped start a war.

In other words, I'd take Days of Our Lives in Kirkwall over another stereotypical Save the World plot any day. And I love Origins, I do. I just think DA2 was more original.

[PantheraOnca]

Nope, It was definitely the zombie mommy puppet scene. I tasted bile from that. The anders "solution" had me do a big "WTF?! Really, guy?" but had less of an emotional impact and my reaction to the wardens there was "same darkspawn problems, different day, eh? good luck to you tainted folk then."

[specter7237]

Swords Edge wrote...

Pfft the quality of Wardens these days! A real Warden would of stayed for a few hours to kill all bad guys in sight then moved on. After looting all the corpses of course.

*grampa voice* Im telling you! You wouldn't see that with a Fereldan Warden, why in my day it only tuck 2 wardens to stop every big threat in every town they walked in, but now 4 of them run into a razed city hoping for an easy quest and maybe some experience then noooo don't wanna stain the new blue lined armour, so they make up a story and go looking for the quickes way out. For shame

Haha, exactly!  Those ****es.  Our Ferelden Wardens  would've been all over those Qunari like Isabella on, well, anything!

[noxsachi]

The.Pixie.Devil wrote...

Not every story is about "SAVING THE WORLD" . Too many games are like that.

I personally enjoyed the breath of fresh air that was 'DRAMA AGE 2". Personal character conflict/political upheaval/social crisis much more intriguing to me then "Theres the bad guys. Kill them."


another warden game would bore me to tears.

I just wish DA:2 wasnt so buggy. 

This, especially buggy when it comes to imports, ala Saving Nathaniel and the Leliana cameo. Still I much prefered the scope of DA2's story to Origins. I wish we could've had more interaction into Meredith and Orsino especially before they both went bat**** crazy in act 3; We finally have real speaking antagonists and are kept away from them!? But still really for me once Loghain is dealt with the story of DA:O really lost alot of its steam and it was much more a but thou must than anything I did in DA2. I prefered my motivation being about protecting the city and my friends than saving the world because its apparantly my new day job.

And yeah my Warden is a really terrible Grey Warden. She is too political and noble for the Wardens, she'd have fought alongside Hawke and Isabela in a heartbeat.

Modifié par noxsachi, 18 mars 2011 - 02:01 .

[In Exile]

I love epic stories. But DA:O was not an epic story. You were an errand boy for 90% of the game. That isn't very epic. DA2 is a different kind of not epic.

[tybert7]

Noatz wrote...

tybert7 wrote...

Some people don't like epics, those people should pine for non epic games, not seek to change games that were billed as epics and turn into something else.

There are many games that fit what you want, why does dragon age have to be all things to all people?  I feel like they chose you over me.  I like epics, they are not new, human civilization has been around for thousands of years, most things are not new, but if done well it can still be enjoyable, and some people prefer the larger than life stories and settings.  If you don't, why can't YOU go elsewhere?  Why do you have to contaminate MY meal?  I get it, you like beefjerky more than steak, you think too many people try to make great steak, fine, eat your beef jerky, but leave my effing meal alone please.

And that is my biggest gripe with the direction of dragon age 2.  The original was a pc game made to work on consoles.  The new one seems like the reverse.  Mass effect was a console focused game from the start, and I enjoyed it a great deal for what it was, now they are changing a thing I already liked and enjoyed to try and tap into those who never got with the first.

I don't care about the people who dropped the original because they could not handle an inventory, let them go, or try to get them and lose me.  No free roaming camera?  why?  If this was design focused on the pc that would NOT have been limited.  Go look at the reviews on the pc and console on amazon, the reviews are flipped from what they were for the original.  The pc players expected more and got less.  You like less, good for you, but understand I hate what the drive to appeal to You has done to my enjoyment.

I think you've been spoiled. You expect to pick up a game and end up saving the world every time by the time the credits roll. If you look at what happens in DA2 there are set pieces enough to constitute an epic storyline for any reasonably minded onlooker: exploring primeval parts of the deep roads, dueling the commander of the Qunari to death, watching the Chantry get blown up and presiding over the beginning of the end of civilisation based on how it is presented in the narrative. Consider that you're reading only part of a story here rather than the whole thing, then you might find the ending that much more satisfying rather than ritually poo-pooing everything that happens.

Have you read the series a song of ice and fire by George RR Martin?

That is epic low fantasy, in the style of a lord of the rings, an OLD genre, and you know what?

It's @#$%ing fantastic.  

Baldur's gate 2 was also an epic story, it was not really about saving the world though, it was a story of one of the Bhaalspawn, of a power mad mage who stripped you of your essense, and you getting it back and your revenge.   But it was more epic than all the rest.  If some people don't like epics, go play barbie horse adventures, go play the sims, go play a thousand different things, but why turn a series that was originally billed as the "spiritual successor" of baldur's gate 2 into a more mass effect 2 style (gutted inventory, locked camera, gimped companion gearing) series?  Into a series who's scope reads more like the days of Hawks life, or as the Dragon turns than a sweeping epic story arc?

I want this series to be more in line with a sort of battle star galactica arc or a babylon 5 story arc in terms of scope.  It was that, now it is less so, so much less.  I GET some of you prefer that smaller scope, good for you.  Many of us do not, and prefer it the other way.  And you can't have it both ways, they chose your way over my own, and they diminished my reception of this game.

The series was a day one purchase for me, it no longer is.  Consequences.  You cannot be all things to all people, and it's ok if bioware prefers this smaller scope of a game track, but I don't and need to state so clearly.

[tybert7]

Zalocx wrote...

tybert7 wrote...

Some people don't like epics, those people should pine for non epic games, not seek to change games that were billed as epics and turn into something else.

Origins being billed as a generic epic does not magically mean the whole franchise must follow in that path. I dislike the whole "Change is bad/it's too different from the first game/this was supposed to be a spiritual sequel to BG" argument. I fail to see the need for DA2 to be similar to Origins and for Origins to be similar to BG/NWN. I HAVE all those games on my hard drive RIGHT NOW. If I wanted to play an old school RPG. . . I would simply play the old school RPG. Newer games should be well, new, instead of retreads of games we already have and can play.

In the end, DA2's different direction does not take Origins from you. I disliked where Oblivion and Storm of Zehir went but that didn't take Morrowind and Mask of the Betrayer from me. Just play the games you like and don't blow a gasket about how "Bioware BETRAYED its fans" by daring to do something new

I never sayed they betrayed anyone.  But I am not staying silent, I am giving my negative feedback and why I enjoyed this less than the first.  I still like bioware, and they are not little children, this is not pleasant stuff to hear, but they are better for having heard it.

You usually learn and grow far less when things turn out smoothly and well, than when they falter.  This is the latter and it is time now to see where many of of think the game went downward.  Some people don't like this because they PREFER the downward approach (from my vantage point).  Make your case why you prefer this type of arc and see where the chips lay.  But if a majority of people who played the original preferred the original, then there is a problem, stick your head in the sand all you wish.

[Sandmanifest]

I know what you mean... I'm replaying DA:O on the 360 now (previously PC, XBOX SO MUCH EASIER). I found out just how much i miss traveling the varied landscape, having a campsite, feeling like I have a goal, like I'm a part of something. I felt like I really CARED about my mission, and I could go about it ruthlessly or otherwise. DA2 is... not the same for me. I find the Acts scattered, and I've played through twice taking both sides and it increased the feeling that nothing I was doing really mattered. Giving Isabelle to the Qunari yielded the SAME outcome. Everything was the same. Enjoyed killing Anders though. Almost as much as Alister or Kaiden. Hate those whiny characters that always end up in my party lol

Modifié par Sandmanifest, 18 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I think the cruelest bit for me was when the chantry blew up and Brid the Gentle Rogue turned to Anders and said, "Anders..what have you done?"

Could hear Hawkes little coded heart break into a billion pieces. Having Sebastian accusing me of protecting my "precious Anders" only rubbed salt into the wound when his earlier warning of betrayal came true.

[Clonedzero]

JamesX wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Fine. Go away, take all the like minded folk with you, keep piloting generic heroes, fighting generic evils, with guaranteed heroic happy endings ™.
Just go far enough away so us roleplayers don't need to hear your whining anymore, and bioware can focus on making continuously better games. Deal?

If you think DA:O is generic and DA2 isn't.. I bet you don't read alot of historical fiction, or non-fantasy fictions.  DA2 is about as about as generic as DA:O.  

at least its a bit more complicated and complex with motivations and personalities for everyone rather than "darkspawn bad dur dur, archdemon evil dur dur! we stop dem save da world dur dur!"

[M_arc]

I agree, the scene with the mother was real shocking to me

Things were finally going fine, made some money, made the world a better place, bought our place back and suddenly my mom gets cut to pieces!!!

I really got a Fringe/Se7en/Resurrection feeling there lol, impressive for a game to give you that feeling.

I played as a mage but that was the only moment I thought: screw them all!

[Pileyourbodies]

The saddest thing in the game is where you find out varrics Scarface impression isn't actually how it happened.

[Jarlaxlecq]

Lithuasil wrote...

Fine. Go away, take all the like minded folk with you, keep piloting generic heroes, fighting generic evils, with guaranteed heroic happy endings ™.
Just go far enough away so us roleplayers don't need to hear your whining anymore, and bioware can focus on making continuously better games. Deal?

TRuth

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Is it whichever scene you first notice that your choices don't really matter in DA2 and suddenly realise that every event of note is going to turn out the same way no matter what you do?

[Sandmanifest]

Larryboy_Dragon wrote...

Is it whichever scene you first notice that your choices don't really matter in DA2 and suddenly realise that every event of note is going to turn out the same way no matter what you do?

For me that was... FIRST playthrough, Orsino using BLOOD MAGIC and fighting MY mage sympathizer to get at the TEMPLARS. At that point I was like "WHAT?? *facepalm* This is going to be the same the second time isn't it..."

[Larryboy_Dragon]

I wasn’t two worried about that – even though I knew that the end would be mostly the same I was still keen to see what new situations my new choices would make. So, 1st playthrough I captured a mage and sent them back to the circle, in the 2nd I helped them escape. What awesome new quests would this open up?!
Well, turn out that after I helped them escape the mage got re-captured anyway. Sooooo basically it doesn’t matter what you do.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[jfp2004]

Foolsfolly wrote...

One of the better things about DA2 is that we see the Wardens from the outside looking in. They're....cold and distant. If Bethany becomes a Warden she's the same! Cold and distant.

They have all these secrets and their own agenda.

It was nice to see them like that. If we were to play a Warden it would be simple and easy. Listen to this NPC and do this mission.

Rinse and repeat. But on the outside it's all riddles and shadows.

That's a good point. It was kind of interesting to see the group that we were a member of in the last game from the outside. And it's weird playing a character that doesn't really know anything about them other than the fact that "hey, it's some Grey Wardens, those guys that fight the darkspawn." Whereas the player knows a lot about them and their history and all the stuff that the joining entails, Hawke doesn't.

Still, though, when your sibling becomes a Grey Warden, I did wish for the option of "Wait! Can I join too?"

[Kaburaisu]

■Sebastian: It's a lot like here. But fewer dead people.
■Varric: Well, you don't have Hawke.


..............

[LightningOkami]

I was glad they didn't take the Warden root at that moment, i would've felt "*sigh* Again? :/" because the entire game of Origins was fixated around the Wardens, so i'm glad they didn't go down that road. No game can please everyone, it's a risk every game company has to take.

[ev0k3r]

tybert7 wrote...

PLEASE !!!!!!!!  TAKE ME WITH YOU, THAT IS THE EPIC STORY ARC I WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO BE PART OF THE WARDENS, NOT DAYS OF OUR LIVES IN KIRKWALL !!!!!!

You sir/madame win the internetz.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw them. The Wardens is where the fun's at!

[Miashi]

When Anders told me he had to give Ser Pounce A Lot away. I had a tear. It's like taking Boo away from Minsk. You can't do that!