184 réponses à ce sujet

[Cariborne]

I actually liked Dragon Age 2 better then Origins; and I do consider myself a fairly hardcore RPG-Fan. Except for Pen and Paper stuff like Dungeon and Dragons; It's never caught my eye.

[TheLastAwakening]

I won the internet .

All jokes aside I agree with the OP's post especially on the plot section. However, I can not ascribe to any of these school of though. I like the changes implemented in the combat system for consoles. However, at the same time I did not get bored watching the battles unfold in DA:O. Yes, combat was slow paced however, the end result of each battle depended upon the skills I choose as I built up my character. This is not to say that the same effect of building my character to affect the outcome of each battle does not apply to DA 2. Instead, because the game is so fast paced this effect in return is lessened more so than it was in DA:O. This is due to two factors the way in which enemies spawn in waves and how easy it is to defeat enemies which can only be offset to some degree by increasing the difficulty.

Overall I do agree with your post. I am hoping that some of these changes "stay and get refined" and I am also hoping that the idea of origins returns.


I'm going to derail my own post D:
<.< >.> On a more personal level, I would really like it if spell combo's from dragon age: Origins returned >.> <.< But people might be like but wasn't spell combo's only for mages? Well, warriors and rogues can have spell combo's too. Lets say I shield bash and homeboy staggers, if my next attack is assault this can be a spell combo that increase the likeliness of a messy kill. Not the bodies exploding but the messy kills or deathblows similar to DA:O. >.> <.<
Hopefully, I did not derail my post too much.

[vigna]

I wish I could be hardcore

[TransientNomad]

An excellent and balanced read. As a hardcore rpger, I agree with most of what the OP poster said, save for the fact I enjoyed DA2's plot a bit more than DAO. Again, I appreciate the read.

[Elite Midget]

As I get older I grow ever more casual... Time isn't what it used to be and I'm glad that Bioware is moving ahead to ensure that I remain a fan even as I get older.

[MachDelta]

Good idea, OP. Me and my girlfriend should do the same thing, as i'm pretty hardcore and she's pretty casual. I'll try and keep our thoughts short... hope this works:


Gameplay:
Hardcore: Overall, I thought gameplay was significantly improved from DA:O. It's much more fluid and visually appealing, but still retains the strategic depth needed to keep it exciting. I also really liked the CCC system over the spell combos, as a reward for team synergy.
I also have to say, from a console perspective - THANK GOD for the "Move to" command. That was one huge thing that really kept DA:O from being a true tactical experience on the consoles. Also, thank you for more tactics slots.

Casual: Combat was a lot more fluid, and felt more upbeat and exciting. DAO was too slow and punchy. It felt too old school (KOTOR style). The companion tactics seemed much better, as I had to spend less time babysitting my them and could focus just on controlling Hawke.


Hawke and Conversations:
HC: I'm still kind of torn on the character of Hawke. On one hand, having a fully voiced character is a big treat as it adds all sorts of detail (tone etc) to the main character that you just don't get with a text system. On the other hand, the voiced character also severely restricts your options. Where as in DA:O I could almost always find something appropriate for the way I envisioned my hero, in DA2 there are plenty of times where I find myself not liking any choice (moreso than in Mass Effect).
Another thing I dislike about the conversation wheel (in ME also) is that quite often what I expect Shep/Hawke to say based on the summary, and what they actually say, are veeeery different things. Occasionally it's a pleasant surprise, but too often it's a "oh damn, I didn't want to say that! Now I have to reload my game..."

C: I liked it! It felt more personal. I really like the mass effect style conversation wheel. The summaries make things interesting and exciting because I don't always know what's coming. Femhawke's VO did  a great job. Good delivery and good writing too.


Companions
HC: I looove the DA2 companions. I knew they were bang on when I had some of my pre-concieved notions utterly crushed. Merrill got a resounding "meh" from me when I first saw her and now, she's one of my absolute favorites. Fenris too. Isabela is everything I could have hoped for (except for that hideous piercing, but whatever), and Varric is pure comedy gold. Overall I think this bunch is much more well rounded than the DAO crew too. In particular, this time around they seem to be much more strongly opinionated which really helps bring them to life.
As for the whole streamlined inventory... I like it! Mostly. I hated the old shell game of "I found a new hat, now everyone trade hats!" in DAO. My only complaint is that I think you took it a touch too far. Rather than just streamlining the equipment choices, you just gutted it entirely. There are no decisions to make any more - if you see an upgrade, you buy it. I think that's gone too far and that a happy medium can be found. But kudos for taking a chance.

C: I liked the interaction that was there, and the friend/rival bar. I prefered DAO's being able to talk to your companions whenever you wanted however, as opposed to the restrictions in DA2. Also, I know he's DLC but Sebastian felt incomplete and I was dissapointed - he didn't feel properly integrated into the game. He arrived late and never really delivered on the romance. All the VO's were great though. Merrill's accent slipped a lot but the delivery was still good. Also, Fenris is sexy and I want to have his broody babies.


Plot
HC: This is one area of DA2 that I really, really want to like... but in my heart I sort of know that I don't like it as much as I hoped I would. DA2 seems to suffer from the middle-movie syndrome. Where the first movie sets up some amazing and mind blowing premise, and the third movie usually (hopefully) has some enormously epic conclusion, the second movie gets stuck holding the exposition/setup bag. Sort of the same thing is happening here, I think. The story-within-a-story trick is neat, but it pushes the focus of the tale to the outer story slightly.
My other complaint is that the choices made in DA2 seem less important than in DAO, and I think this is partially due to the lack of a epilogue. Immediate and near term consequences are great for giving a story life, but ultimately there is some special satisfaction in hearing "and they lived happily ever after" (or whatever). In the end it doesn't seem like very many choices actually affect the overall outcome of the story.

C: The story definitly kept me on edge. I didn't know what was coming and I enjoyed the suspense. I didn't really like how Hawke lost his/her entire family (I almost cried when mom died!) but eh. Generally the story, sidequests, and companion quest were well done and really wove the story together nicely.


Overall
HC: Overall, I really like it. I think, once the bugs are patched up (sidebar: seriously guys, what do we have to do to get a game release without giant game-stopping bugs these days? In my nearly 20 years of gaming, things have slipped a LONG way. I realize games are more complex than ever, but I also know that no studio - no artist - wants to push their stuff out the door before the paint is even dry. So stop it. I know the publishers are the guys signing the cheques, but please tell them that dragging your name through the mud is more important than them hitting their damn quarter goals. Do we, the gaming public, have to start burning publishers at the stake? Don't **** with the fans, you know we're crazy!) - ahem - once the bugs are patched up I think this game will be my favorite of the two. The story may not quite have the same jazz, but I think the game mechanics and the companions make for the better overall experience of the two.

Casual: I enjoyed it a little more than DAO, but it felt too short. I spent 54 hours on my first DAO run, but only 33 on DA2. I loved the DAO cameos though! Lilleana was a great surprise, King Alistair was a bit dissapointing (I am NOT his "ball and chain" !) Were DA2's story longer and consisted of more than three major events, I think it would be a clear winner. As is it just manages to nudge past DAO.

[SmokePants]

It's not hardcore vs casual. It's conservative vs progressive. I mean, how useless is the term "Hardcore RPG player" in this day and age where the distinctions between game genre classifications are quickly evaporating? Natural cross-pollination will continue to strip more and more meaning from the term, "role playing game". All we're left with is hardcore GAMERS and there are plenty of them that BioWare would love to captivate.

Modifié par SmokePants, 18 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[Funker Shepard]

I think I pretty much agree with all the points made in the OP (and can generally see both views), but I disagree a bit on the plot part. I think that the "keep fighting mooks until you are powerful enough to go after the big boss" thing has really been done to death (let's face it, it's all Bioware games until now, and even experiments like Alpha Protocol can be essentially reduced to that basic structure).

I found DA2's departure from this normal starting point to be its best part - now it's a story about a guy who, through quirks of fate, winds up having a massive impact on the Dragon Age world. Sure, it's not EPIC, but it's pretty damn good, and a refreshing change of pace to me.

[JeeWeeJ]

Good post! I do not agree with a lot of your points (especially about the gameplay and combat), but i can see what you're getting at. However, what saddens me is that DA2 is a console focussed, action oriented game, where DA:O was a PC focussed, slower and more tactical game. And i think that doesnt really mix to well..

Is DA2 a bad game? Definitely not, but its no longer the "spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate" Origins was, and it shows. And yes, you can see that as a good thing, or a bad thing.. It's a matter of taste..

[Aenima82]

very interesting or weird post, not sure which. the goods and bads of this game are definitely not connected to hardcore/casual. the game is ok, story at least it is different from the last few years favorite omg darkspawn shadowlord darkshadows shadowydarkness coming our way lets gather an army and defeat them epic adventure. mind you it is not a story like planescape torment which draws you in but its not bad. However i thought the game lacked the ability to draw the player into its story. This was not caused by one big fault that could be fixed or avoided but rather it was the result of little things adding up during the game. Some of which were overused maps, wave system and its hilarity, random item pickup side quests (which i believe the developers spent a combined total of 10 to 20mins designing), every type of mob having same classes(Ex: Assassin, shadow assassin, rage demon all do exactly the same thing. poor rage demon cant pot tho or desire demon, lieutenant, shadow lord/revenant) all this leave you with a well this is kinda dumb feeling.

This is a mediocre game no need to argue for days or weeks about it. I am sure the developers would have liked to have more time to tweak stuff out. I dont think they are going "We think having 1 map for caves 1 for mansion and 1 for warehouses was a tremendous idea on our part". Having said all this, i don't really understand people whining so much about DA2 since it is definitely not that bad and at the same time i think people who love this game have some low standards or get entertained easily. There aren't many good rpgs around and right now this is probably the best new one out there. If you absolutely cant stand this game you can go to good old games website and get some old school stuff for your new windows.

Modifié par Aenima82, 18 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[Rockpopple]

You made some good points, OP. This was a good read.

[Rob Sabbaggio]

OP was a very good post. I didnt agree with everything, but it was nice to see such a comparison.

Dragon Age 2 has some flaws, I dont agree with all the changes they made. But I loved the game so much, and a lot of the reason for that is it didnt adhere to the standard plot template (mighty warrior XXXXX (who may or may not have a secret, or amnesia) - loses XXXXX family/friend/mentor to uber-super villian, who wants to destroy the world, and only him and a hardy band of followers can stop him (insert super weapon or piece of magic now). In Dragon Age 2, for once it actually made sense in a role playing game to explore, try to make money, take your time. Everyone had a point of view, there were no obvious villains. Companions had their own drives and ambitions, which you could help or hinder. I dont think I have seen a game do this quite so well.

So I can forgive some of the gameplay mechanisms I didnt like, and concentrate on enjoying what is overall a magnificent game.

Maybe Dragon Age 2 will be one of those games that people will re-evaluate over time? Bioshock was hugely lauded on release but then their was a backlash of haters, while Alpha Protocol basically got destroyed on release for bugs, despite it actually being a good game with some great ideas. Which was a shame, because that meant there would never be an Alpha Protocol 2...

[Rocambole4]

John, you and Tomas are the sweetest guys at the forums, but I must tell what I think or the forums would be of no use.

I could live with the repeated scenarios (altough it was not interesting at all).

I could live with the spawning mobs mid-fight, even if it removed much of the tactical aspect I love in DA:O

I could live with a lot of small problems.

But Lelianna DIED on my DA:O game. Continuation is important, now I just don't feel DA2 is "cannon", it's just a spin off to me.

Also, I'm no longer interested in importing any saves to DA3, because I know ANYTHING I chose cause I believed it would be interesting later will be ignored. SAying someone I killed and looted "was just KOed" doesn't solve the problem.

I'm a very frustrated fan now. Believe me.

[AllThatJazz]

 Great post, OP
I disagree on one point - for me, the fact that the plot/main antagonists weren't laid out at the beginning was a huge plus. I liked that Hawke started out 'small', dealing with small, personal concerns, then as her influence and power grew, so did the nature of her tasks. I loved that the main narrative crept up on me. At my first meeting with *main antagonist* - I looked into his/her eyes and thought 'well, you're trouble!'. I kind of knew that it was coming up to 'big villain' time, and it was a moment that gave me a feeling of glee that I haven't had from a game in absolutely ages.  

Other than that, you've pretty much taken a fair few words out of my mouth x

[cephasjames]

ReavousX wrote...

I'm definitely left with a feeling that Bioware was testing the waters with a few aspects of the game to gauge player reaction and judge where to go with future installments. 

This is a thought that I have had running around in my head too. I don't know if its true or not, but its a thought. I think that in order to retain the classic rpg crowd and bring in new fans into the rpg fold (which, for rpgs, is a very good thing) there is a balancing act BioWare needs to do (I see this same thing in another game I play). I wonder if BioWare intentionally went as far as they did away from traditional rpgs (in some aspects) not just to bring in new people, but also to see how much classic rpgers will "allow" in the modernizing of rgps. Believing that BioWare will make a DA3 and that they will smartly use feedback from both DAO and DA2 (they have proven thus far to be an intelligent group of people even if some of the choices they made might not seem the best to many), I see DA2 and the reactions to it as a good gauge for them to use in the future.

[Mooh Bear]

ReavousX wrote...

A long articulate post

Frankly, I disagree with you on most points. There is no way you can consider the gameplay of DA2 superior to Origins, if you are actually interested in playing the game. Sure, if you just want to see a little action, the fights are fine, they're "something to do" until you reach the next quest marker. But they're not interesting to play. Aside from a couple a bosses, there is nothing to do, you just watch (playing on PC). The cooldowns last forever. I play a Mage. The fight starts, I cast my 4 spells and then... I wait, picking a new target when the last one exploded in a puddle of blood. My companions are jumping all over the place, more baddies appear out of nowhere... Once in a while, I switch to healing. Cool fights...  Not. And no, I haven't tried Nightmare, because I want to fight the enemies, not the atrocious camera and the megadumb companion AI, notwithstanding the unending life bars of certain elites and bosses. The boss at the end of Act 2 already took forever to die in normal (but I was never in danger).

Regarding conversation, the wheel doesn't make much of a difference in the end. Whether there are full sentences or just a "stance", the convo are still 100% scripted. However, it can be frustrating to see your character say or do something you completely didn't expect (nor want). The same problem exist in ME1/2. And it could easily be fixed if Bioware would simply give players the choice...

Companions are fine, although you can regret that they're even more pigeon-holed in a particular tactical role, the fights as they are makes it moot. And their background could be more developed. We don't learn much about them during the game.

As for the plot, well, the overarching story is not bad. It's refreshing to not be the sole hope of mankind for once. However, if Hawke is not here to save the world, the Champion doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything else really. The PC has no goals. The PC just roams around, picking errands from various people. The main story quests feel like a bunch of sidequests, disconnected from the PC and between them. Why is Hawke helping all those people? Why is Hawke even getting involved? What does Hawke want? There is no drive, just a necessity to move the plot forward by checking the next quest marker... I think that's a major failure for a RPG which wants to focus so much on the main character's story itself.

Overall, Just setting aside the super-cheap ten dungeons for the price of one recycling, the game doesn't feel like a step forward. Most of the changes do not bring more enjoyment, they make the game simpler to play: less to do in fights, less to read, less to manage with leveling and equipment. Sure you could argue it flows better, but you know what flows even better? A movie: nothing to do at all. Just seat down and enjoy. <_<

Modifié par Mooh Bear, 18 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[ReavousX]

Aenima82 wrote...

very interesting or weird post, not sure which. the goods and bads of this game are definitely not connected to hardcore/casual. 

If you think the whole point is finding the "goods and bads" of the game, then you missed it.  It's just two different perspectives on the same game.  One from an RPG junkie, the other from a very casual gamer.  Obviously, these two different perspectives will agree/disagree on various aspects, the point was seeing what those aspects were.  

[AngryFrozenWater]

The number of games that include RPG elements is growing. In order to survive in this market BW believes that it should respond to that by creating RPGs that contain action elements. And that's exactly what they are doing. DA2 is right on track. Whether you like or not. Hehe. Read the following article to see where I get that idea from:

BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.

[AllThatJazz]

Mooh Bear wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

A long articulate post

Frankly, I disagree with you on most points. There is no way you can consider the gameplay of DA2 superior to Origins, if you are actually interested in playing the game. Sure, if you just want to see a little action, the fights are fine, they're "something to do" until you reach the next quest marker. But they're not interesting to play. Aside from a couple a bosses, there is nothing to do, you just watch (playing on PC). The cooldowns last forever. I play a Mage. The fight starts, I cast my 4 spells and then... I wait, picking a new target when the last one exploded in a puddle of blood. My companions are jumping all over the place, more baddies appear out of nowhere... Once in a while, I switch to healing. Cool fights...  Not. And no, I haven't tried Nightmare, because I want to fight the enemies, not the atrocious camera and the megadumb companion AI, notwithstanding the unending life bars of certain elites and bosses. The boss at the end of Act 2 already took forever to die in normal (but I was never in danger).

Regarding conversation, the wheel doesn't make much of a difference in the end. Whether there are full sentences or just a "stance", the convo are still 100% scripted. However, it can be frustrating to see your character say or do something you completely didn't expect (nor want). The same problem exist in ME1/2. And it could easily be fixed if Bioware would simply give players the choice...

Companions are fine, although you can regret that they're even more pigeon-holed in a particular tactical role, the fights as they are makes it moot. And their background could be more developed. We don't learn much about them during the game.

As for the plot, well, the overarching story is not bad. It's refreshing to not be the sole hope of mankind for once. However, if Hawke is not here to save the world, the Champion doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything else really. The PC has no goals. The PC just roams around, picking errands from various people. The main story quests feel like a bunch of sidequests, disconnected from the PC and between them. Why is Hawke helping all those people? Why is Hawke even getting involved? What does Hawke want? There is no drive, just a necessity to move the plot forward by checking the next quest marker... I think that's a major failure for a RPG which wants to focus so much on the main character's story itself.

Overall, Just setting aside the super-cheap ten dungeons for the price of one recycling, the game doesn't feel like a step forward. Most of the changes do not bring more enjoyment, they make the game simpler to play: less to do in fights, less to read, less to manage with leveling and equipment. Sure you could argue it flows better, but you know what flows even better? A movie: nothing to do at all. Just seat down and enjoy. <_<

I don't agree with this. How is trying to get your family out of the slums not a goal? It's just a more personal goal than 'kill this big thing that's trying to destroy the world'. When I play through Origins, the only Origin story I really connect with is the Human Noble. Why? Because the end of the HN origin gives me a personal aspiration - to kill Howe. I prefer a goal that has me trying to better the lot of the people I care about, than fighting some great evil. I love Hawke because she earns every scrap of what she has, and I thoroughly enjoy playing her as she does it.

No argument about the recycling of areas, though.

Crikey, with all these disparate opinions about almost every aspect of the game, it's no wonder the reviews have been all over the place. This game is like Marmite! 

[DarthKaldriss]

Excellant post OP and theres a couple of other gems in this thread too.
TBH I thought the companions where more 'alive' as it where than in Origins the conversation wheel and a spoken protaganist where also big improvements as well.
                  Could have cut back abit on the exploding enemies tho. 

[SnowHeart1]

I thought it was an articulate and thought-out post, and while I agree with some of it, I strongly disagree with about half of it. What do you define as "hardcore"? Given the tone a lot of people have taken on here regarding RPG "traditionalists", I would probably be considered "hardcore" and I don't see my views reflected a bit in your hardcore sections. I hated the stages (or waves) of the battles -- they removed any importance for finding strategic positions for a fight. The overhead camera: "times they are a changin'"? So, what, you agree there is a place for it, but times are changing, so... what does that mean?

Pick a personality at the beginning and have that reflected in cinematics? This is your "hardcore" preference? What!? Completely ripping out the ability to choose dialogue based on the situation in order to more precisely articulate the personality you envision your character having is... hardcore?  The dialogue wheel made "conversations less of a burden"!? Again, what!? This is your hardcore perspective?  Now, to be clear, I actually don't mind the dialogue wheel. Occasionally Hawke said things I didn't think he would say and that irked me a little, but it was generally on target enough. My one complaint, and it's a big one for me as a "hardcore" RPG player, was the simplistic way it reduced the romances to a predictable and easy outcome. So much for the mystery of love. 

"Dragon Age 2 was a solid RPG experience, without a doubt...  The game certainly felt different, and different freaks people out sometimes...that whole "change" thing has odd effects on people." Thank you, Mr. Laidlaw.  That's right. Even though I actually enjoyed the overall experience, the complaints I have are simply because I can't deal with change. Sorry, but this line of argument is beginning to really tick me off. My objections to the game actually have little to do with "change". In fact, overall, I like the changes to combat and dialogue and the way in which the story was told. My complaints have to do with what I see as a weaker story and a rushed production schedule resulting in recycled environments, less fleshed out characters, and fewer RPG-staples such as character customization (e.g., armor, specialisations, etc.).

"...as there's room for improvement even on games that make millions of dollars." That much I will agree with you on. Anyway, sorry for the rant OP, as I actually really do appreciate the thoughtful tone and articulate presentation of your position. I just really strongly disagree with some of your conclusions and the way it felt to me you were trying to represent my views.

[Larry L]

I appreciate the thought in this letter. And I understand the thoughts that went into it. But something about it really puts me off, and makes you (the OP and other people using the same terms) come off as pompous and a real elitist jerk who looks down your nose at other fellow gamers. It's the way you say all the bad things about the game were done to make the game more casual and accessible and all around easier for console gamers. That is utter BS.

I'm a console gamer and always have been for the most part. I've always enjoyed this kind/genre of game, like Baulder's Gate, Champions of Norrath, Sacred 2, Diablo, Origins....all these kinds of games, and many other console gamers are the same. You think we WANTED or in any way NEEDED BioWare to take out equipping armor on our party? Or reuse the same caves, dungeons and areas over and over? Or take out isometric view, or speed up the gameplay. Although on that one, to be honest, I'm actually starting to enjoy the combat and combo system more than Origins. But regardless BW DID speed it up and made tactical play less as a result, but you blame that on console gamers? WTF if up with that? In case you didn't notice, console players loved Origins to the point of considering it one of the best RPGs this gen. And none of us were asking for the game to be made casual, or easier in any way. We like deep RPGs too you know........ the only difference between us is you like telling you toon where to go and what to hit by pointing and clicking, and we like to do it with a left analog stick and a X button.

You PC elitist types need to stop with the "consolised" BS. NO ONE is happy about some of the choices made in DA2, some are just upset about more things......and smaller things, than others.

[Mooh Bear]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Mooh Bear wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

A long articulate post

Frankly, I disagree with you on most points. There is no way you can consider the gameplay of DA2 superior to Origins, if you are actually interested in playing the game. Sure, if you just want to see a little action, the fights are fine, they're "something to do" until you reach the next quest marker. But they're not interesting to play. Aside from a couple a bosses, there is nothing to do, you just watch (playing on PC). The cooldowns last forever. I play a Mage. The fight starts, I cast my 4 spells and then... I wait, picking a new target when the last one exploded in a puddle of blood. My companions are jumping all over the place, more baddies appear out of nowhere... Once in a while, I switch to healing. Cool fights...  Not. And no, I haven't tried Nightmare, because I want to fight the enemies, not the atrocious camera and the megadumb companion AI, notwithstanding the unending life bars of certain elites and bosses. The boss at the end of Act 2 already took forever to die in normal (but I was never in danger).

Regarding conversation, the wheel doesn't make much of a difference in the end. Whether there are full sentences or just a "stance", the convo are still 100% scripted. However, it can be frustrating to see your character say or do something you completely didn't expect (nor want). The same problem exist in ME1/2. And it could easily be fixed if Bioware would simply give players the choice...

Companions are fine, although you can regret that they're even more pigeon-holed in a particular tactical role, the fights as they are makes it moot. And their background could be more developed. We don't learn much about them during the game.

As for the plot, well, the overarching story is not bad. It's refreshing to not be the sole hope of mankind for once. However, if Hawke is not here to save the world, the Champion doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything else really. The PC has no goals. The PC just roams around, picking errands from various people. The main story quests feel like a bunch of sidequests, disconnected from the PC and between them. Why is Hawke helping all those people? Why is Hawke even getting involved? What does Hawke want? There is no drive, just a necessity to move the plot forward by checking the next quest marker... I think that's a major failure for a RPG which wants to focus so much on the main character's story itself.

Overall, Just setting aside the super-cheap ten dungeons for the price of one recycling, the game doesn't feel like a step forward. Most of the changes do not bring more enjoyment, they make the game simpler to play: less to do in fights, less to read, less to manage with leveling and equipment. Sure you could argue it flows better, but you know what flows even better? A movie: nothing to do at all. Just seat down and enjoy. <_<

I don't agree with this. How is trying to get your family out of the slums not a goal? It's just a more personal goal than 'kill this big thing that's trying to destroy the world'. When I play through Origins, the only Origin story I really connect with is the Human Noble. Why? Because the end of the HN origin gives me a personal aspiration - to kill Howe. I prefer a goal that has me trying to better the lot of the people I care about, than fighting some great evil. I love Hawke because she earns every scrap of what she has, and I thoroughly enjoy playing her as she does it.

No argument about the recycling of areas, though.

Crikey, with all these disparate opinions about almost every aspect of the game, it's no wonder the reviews have been all over the place. This game is like Marmite! 

The whole Act 1 subplot ends with...  Act 1. Plus, there aren't any plot to speak of in Act 1. You're just picking up odd jobs to rake those 50 sovereign in. And what are your goals in Act 2 and 3? Chilling out at the Hanged Man with your pals?

Modifié par Mooh Bear, 18 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Larry L wrote...

I appreciate the thought in this letter. And I understand the thoughts that went into it. But something about it really puts me off, and makes you (the OP and other people using the same terms) come off as pompous and a real elitist jerk who looks down your nose at other fellow gamers. It's the way you say all the bad things about the game were done to make the game more casual and accessible and all around easier for console gamers. That is utter BS.

I'm a console gamer and always have been for the most part. I've always enjoyed this kind/genre of game, like Baulder's Gate, Champions of Norrath, Sacred 2, Diablo, Origins....all these kinds of games, and many other console gamers are the same. You think we WANTED or in any way NEEDED BioWare to take out equipping armor on our party? Or reuse the same caves, dungeons and areas over and over? Or take out isometric view, or speed up the gameplay. Although on that one, to be honest, I'm actually starting to enjoy the combat and combo system more than Origins. But regardless BW DID speed it up and made tactical play less as a result, but you blame that on console gamers? WTF if up with that? In case you didn't notice, console players loved Origins to the point of considering it one of the best RPGs this gen. And none of us were asking for the game to be made casual, or easier in any way. We like deep RPGs too you know........ the only difference between us is you like telling you toon where to go and what to hit by pointing and clicking, and we like to do it with a left analog stick and a X button.

You PC elitist types need to stop with the "consolised" BS. NO ONE is happy about some of the choices made in DA2, some are just upset about more things......and smaller things, than others.

Great reading comprehension.  The original poster said that he played on XBox360 and never said that he blamed console players.  So get off your high horse calling people "pompous" and "elitist."

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 18 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[AllThatJazz]

Mooh Bear wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Mooh Bear wrote...

ReavousX wrote...

A long articulate post

Frankly, I disagree with you on most points. There is no way you can consider the gameplay of DA2 superior to Origins, if you are actually interested in playing the game. Sure, if you just want to see a little action, the fights are fine, they're "something to do" until you reach the next quest marker. But they're not interesting to play. Aside from a couple a bosses, there is nothing to do, you just watch (playing on PC). The cooldowns last forever. I play a Mage. The fight starts, I cast my 4 spells and then... I wait, picking a new target when the last one exploded in a puddle of blood. My companions are jumping all over the place, more baddies appear out of nowhere... Once in a while, I switch to healing. Cool fights...  Not. And no, I haven't tried Nightmare, because I want to fight the enemies, not the atrocious camera and the megadumb companion AI, notwithstanding the unending life bars of certain elites and bosses. The boss at the end of Act 2 already took forever to die in normal (but I was never in danger).

Regarding conversation, the wheel doesn't make much of a difference in the end. Whether there are full sentences or just a "stance", the convo are still 100% scripted. However, it can be frustrating to see your character say or do something you completely didn't expect (nor want). The same problem exist in ME1/2. And it could easily be fixed if Bioware would simply give players the choice...

Companions are fine, although you can regret that they're even more pigeon-holed in a particular tactical role, the fights as they are makes it moot. And their background could be more developed. We don't learn much about them during the game.

As for the plot, well, the overarching story is not bad. It's refreshing to not be the sole hope of mankind for once. However, if Hawke is not here to save the world, the Champion doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything else really. The PC has no goals. The PC just roams around, picking errands from various people. The main story quests feel like a bunch of sidequests, disconnected from the PC and between them. Why is Hawke helping all those people? Why is Hawke even getting involved? What does Hawke want? There is no drive, just a necessity to move the plot forward by checking the next quest marker... I think that's a major failure for a RPG which wants to focus so much on the main character's story itself.

Overall, Just setting aside the super-cheap ten dungeons for the price of one recycling, the game doesn't feel like a step forward. Most of the changes do not bring more enjoyment, they make the game simpler to play: less to do in fights, less to read, less to manage with leveling and equipment. Sure you could argue it flows better, but you know what flows even better? A movie: nothing to do at all. Just seat down and enjoy. <_<

I don't agree with this. How is trying to get your family out of the slums not a goal? It's just a more personal goal than 'kill this big thing that's trying to destroy the world'. When I play through Origins, the only Origin story I really connect with is the Human Noble. Why? Because the end of the HN origin gives me a personal aspiration - to kill Howe. I prefer a goal that has me trying to better the lot of the people I care about, than fighting some great evil. I love Hawke because she earns every scrap of what she has, and I thoroughly enjoy playing her as she does it.

No argument about the recycling of areas, though.

Crikey, with all these disparate opinions about almost every aspect of the game, it's no wonder the reviews have been all over the place. This game is like Marmite! 

The whole Act 1 subplot ends with...  Act 1. Plus, there aren't any plot to speak of in Act 1. You're just picking up odd jobs to rake those 50 sovereign in. And what are your goals in Act 2 and 3? Chilling out at the Hanged Man with your pals?

Act 2 - trying to get rid of the Qunari.
Act 3 - playing Kingmaker (or equivalent) - being the deciding factor in who wields the power in Kirkwall.

Subplots gradually increasing in importance/significance as Hawke's influence grows.

The only reason I didn't point that out in my previous post is because I kind of thought the Act 2 & 3 goals were more obvious. And gathering the 50 sovereigns so that a Deep Roads expedition could make you rich enough to restore your family's wealth was the plot of Act one. And it was really not that hard to get the 50 sovereigns (I had more than 150 by the time I left Kirkwall) . You don't have to do the tons of 'odd jobs', just the major sidequests, most of which I thought were pretty interesting. It was kind of the same thing as in Baldur's Gate 2, albeit for a different reason.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 18 mars 2011 - 04:00 .