Rather than continue to expound on the myriad problems in DA2, Its my hope that if I illustrate the things about DAO that made me just fall in love with the game perhaps the people behind DA2 will understand where the frustration with 2 is coming from and what would make a genuinely excellent DA3. I hope they take the time to read it.
Like the best and most classic fantasy stories, DAO opened with rumblings of epic danger to come. While your world was fairly status quo to begin with, Duncan soon appeared making desperate conscriptions to the Wardens because he, like all who have heard the dark whispers of "blight" and conflict, saw the storm clouds gathering on the horizon. Excellent! You felt an almost palpable urgency but yet knew that any day where you faced the hordes was still far off -yuou had much growing yet to do.
The game, especially with its unique selection of origins, fleshed out a fully realized and expansive feeling world quickly. You never felt the need to close out the game and go read a website to figure out what this world was all about. Its grand scope and large scale made the story all the more epic and immersive.
Immersiveness was key to DAO, and it didn't take long to feel you'd made the plunge into a real world. I'd say a large chunk of the immersion had to do with your companions. You could turn and engage them in conversations at any time, learning many details about their pasts, their personalities, forging friendships or relationships whether they were in camp or standing beside you. Their side quests only deepened your understanding of them and furthered your relationships for good or ill. When you elected to romance one of them you really felt that relationship develop. Let's take Alistair for example. Whenever you click on Alistair he says, "what now?" or "do this, do that *grumble*" until your friendship or romance begins to grow. Then he replies, "yes?" much less petulantly and that grows to "of course," and eventually, "what would have me do," and finally, "Yes, my love?" Sometimes he would initiate conversations, expressing his wants, needs, or concerns. Sometimes he just wanted to chat. You could feel the relationship deepening and eventually, when confronted with some serious plot developments at the end, you felt your heart wrenching. It mattered.
Even small side quests often led to a detailed, unique dungeon crawl that had me ooing and ahing. I couldn't believe how much time and detail was put into that game. Most every side quest felt like a fully fleshed out adventure. I was fascinated by the places I went, the twists and turns of the plot and the enormous impact my choices could make on the outcomes of each quest. Perhaps the biggest was Brother Genetivi who might become hero, disappointed scholar or corpse. Every time I sat down to play, amnd selected a quest, I was embarking on an adventure.
The characters had such marvelous and distinct personalities. Alistair literally had me laughing out loud all day. Wynne was deeply endearing and often moving. Leliana could always surprise me with another unexpected turn to her personality. Morrigan was as often hysterically funny as she was dark and dismaying. Sten was never what you expected. On and on, these characters had long detailed histories, realistic goals and wants and fears, were protrayed by distinctive and talented voice actors, and always grew from distant strangers to close knit family. They were the living, breathing heart and soul of DAO.
Between the carefully woven epic storyline and the richly detailed and endearing characters, every twist and turn of the main plotline had me emotionally invested. When King Calain fell in battle I felt both deeply hurt to see him die as well as broodingly angry at Loghain for his treachery. When Wynne told me of the spirit within her and that she may die soon, I was deeply moved and actually concerned for this fictional character. And when Alistair made his sacrifice for me on the battlefield, it completely broke my heart. Not bad for a video game.
----
DA2 lacks all of these things in abundance. I had a romance with Anders that I never saw but for one impassioned kiss sequence. We had very few conversations and I had absolutely no emotional investment in him. When my mother was, astoundingly enough, killed not by a Templar, not by a Blood Mage, not due to my error or poor choice, but instead by Ted Bundy on crack, I just shook my head. "What were they thinking?" was all i could say. I felt little to no bond with anyone, nothing but one or two lines ever made me laugh out loud, and I never felt like any map i explored was an adventure. The choices I made had nearly no impact on my story whatsoever, and while I felt the basic storyline was good, it was better suited to a short film than an interactive game. Frankly, I'd rather hear Bioware say that this game was a side-quest spin off of DAO and the real sequel is still in the works. I'm sorry, Bioware, I really am. Ive been one of your staunchest supporters since KOTOR and Jade Empire and have loved deeply every title you've put out...until now. Reign this title back in and make sure that DA3 will sweep the awards once again and enthrall your players in the rich and immersive world you made us fall in love with in DAO.
Why I loved DA Origins
Débuté par
sgreco1970
, mars 18 2011 12:46
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#2
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 01:00
Noatz
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Its odd you feel DA2 lacks everything you list "in abundance". It lacks some of it certainly, mainly the depth of its sidequests (and mainquests for that matter), but the companions? If anything I felt I liked the companions you get in DA2 better, they're all well developed, three dimensional characters and a lot of them are brilliantly, consistently funny. Its true you can't talk to them at any time, but honestly this was never as much of a good thing as you make it sound - each character only has a finite number of actual conversations and anything beyond this was just endless cyclical repetition of their lines. In DA2 your companions have similar amounts of actual conversations but they take place over time as would be natural rather than all at once. The only aspect of the companion area Origins trumped DA2 in was that the DLC character (Shale) was significantly better than the one in DA2 (Sebastian).
#4
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 05:09
vigna
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The companions in DAII are good and also somewhat endearing--Varric, Merrill, Aveline and Fenris especially. I actually really like Hawke as a protagonist. There is something missing and I'll eventually put my finger on it.
#5
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 05:22
Clonedzero
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wait? are you saying the sidequests in DA:O were more "detailed" than DA2's? DA2 had tons of detailed sidequests that arched over multiple acts and had full stories for them.
DA:O only had two types of sidequests, the super pointless ones like the letters, the chanters board, those mage guys, ect. which had no real point to them at all. "go here kill wolves come back for reward" type thing.
then there was the other kind which was "hey something something its on your way to your main quest mission anyways so pick up something and do something while you're doing the main quest thing" which were more like secondary optional objectives for the main quest parts rather than proper sidequests.
DA:O only had two types of sidequests, the super pointless ones like the letters, the chanters board, those mage guys, ect. which had no real point to them at all. "go here kill wolves come back for reward" type thing.
then there was the other kind which was "hey something something its on your way to your main quest mission anyways so pick up something and do something while you're doing the main quest thing" which were more like secondary optional objectives for the main quest parts rather than proper sidequests.
#6
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 05:24
addu2urmanapool
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Hear, hear. It's odd that Bioware refuses to answer *real* heartfelt complaint threads like this one.
#7
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 05:38
Clonedzero
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if i created a game that was a sequel to a previous one, and bitter people complaining about the changes i made nitpicked about every minor thing, i'd probably ignore them too.addu2urmanapool wrote...
Hear, hear. It's odd that Bioware refuses to answer *real* heartfelt complaint threads like this one.
#8
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 06:21
bztang
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The main issue I've had with the story in DA2 when compared to DA:O is the consequence of inaction. By inaction, I mean that in DA2 up until the end of Act2, you really have no heroic reason compelling you to go on (I mean earning some coin? Bah!), whereas in DA:O, the threat of Darkspawn overrunning Ferelden was imminent, and inaction would have lead to annihilation.
However, that's not to say DA2 has a terrible story but rather that it is a different type of story entirely. DA2 is about the coming of age of a hero, the Champion of Kirkwall, and by breaking apart his/her rise to legendary status into 3 Acts covering about 10 years, Bioware effectively lowered the stakes during the first half of the game, making the player feel unimportant, but possibly creating a more personal experience.
Honestly, they could've done what they did in the DA:O origins story and made the First act into a 10-20min introduction to the game, and then tossed you into the inevitable Mage/Templar/Circle/Qunari war, but they wanted to craft a more intimate story to make the player care about Hawke as a person, not just some nameless/raceless/speechless hero with a brief intro.
Obviously, this wasn't perceived positively by many fans, including myself initially, but over my two playthroughs, I have come to appreciated the dilemmas Hawke was faced with, and enjoyed watching him/her and the companions grow as characters based upon the choices I made (especially Merrill), as with DA:O.
However, that's not to say DA2 has a terrible story but rather that it is a different type of story entirely. DA2 is about the coming of age of a hero, the Champion of Kirkwall, and by breaking apart his/her rise to legendary status into 3 Acts covering about 10 years, Bioware effectively lowered the stakes during the first half of the game, making the player feel unimportant, but possibly creating a more personal experience.
Honestly, they could've done what they did in the DA:O origins story and made the First act into a 10-20min introduction to the game, and then tossed you into the inevitable Mage/Templar/Circle/Qunari war, but they wanted to craft a more intimate story to make the player care about Hawke as a person, not just some nameless/raceless/speechless hero with a brief intro.
Obviously, this wasn't perceived positively by many fans, including myself initially, but over my two playthroughs, I have come to appreciated the dilemmas Hawke was faced with, and enjoyed watching him/her and the companions grow as characters based upon the choices I made (especially Merrill), as with DA:O.
Modifié par bztang, 18 mars 2011 - 06:23 .
#9
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 06:22
vigna
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vigna wrote...
The companions in DAII are good and also somewhat endearing--Varric, Merrill, Aveline and Fenris especially. I actually really like Hawke as a protagonist. There is something missing and I'll eventually put my finger on it.
I figured it out...
It is the Kobayashi maru of video game plots. It's not winnable. I cannot satisfactorily complete the game because the option I want doesn't exist. I understand the themes and the political undulations occurring. I don't believe everything is grey and everything is relative. The game approaches the story in such a way to elicit emotions from you that it wants. It forces the emotions rather than letting you discover them yourself. it is heavy-handed.....i finally got it.
#10
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 06:57
Noatz
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sgreco1970 wrote...
Its odder still that you don't
And its odder further still that you go to the trouble of posting the Hadrian's wall of text and then elect not to debate any counter points beyond facetious one liners.
#11
Posté 18 mars 2011 - 07:14
Freestorm Skinn
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i think what a lot of people found missing is that Hawke is not on an active overarching quest like the Warden was. There is no central narrative thrust to Hawke's story - s/he wouldn't have anything to do if people didn't bring cases for her to solve. It's much more episodic and more like a weekly series with its Case of the Week.
I don't mind it. It's a change from the generic Epic Quest to Save the World Plot.
I don't mind it. It's a change from the generic Epic Quest to Save the World Plot.
#12
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:51
sgreco1970
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Clonedzero wrote...
wait? are you saying the sidequests in DA:O were more "detailed" than DA2's? DA2 had tons of detailed sidequests that arched over multiple acts and had full stories for them.
DA:O only had two types of sidequests, the super pointless ones like the letters, the chanters board, those mage guys, ect. which had no real point to them at all. "go here kill wolves come back for reward" type thing.
then there was the other kind which was "hey something something its on your way to your main quest mission anyways so pick up something and do something while you're doing the main quest thing" which were more like secondary optional objectives for the main quest parts rather than proper sidequests.
I just didnt find their side quests all that detailed at all. I'd enter the caves they sent me to, engage in the first fight and the quest npc would suddenly be there. usually they'd send me somewhere else to only get 1 or 2 rooms in and it was over.
#13
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:53
sgreco1970
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Noatz wrote...
sgreco1970 wrote...
Its odder still that you don't
And its odder further still that you go to the trouble of posting the Hadrian's wall of text and then elect not to debate any counter points beyond facetious one liners.
Ah sorry, Im not here to debate my own opinions. they remain mine. You're welcome to your own take on the game, and add it here. Just seemed to me your first and only reaction was to try and tell me how my opinion was wrong. Its not, its my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
#14
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:02
Noatz
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sgreco1970 wrote...
Noatz wrote...
sgreco1970 wrote...
Its odder still that you don't
And its odder further still that you go to the trouble of posting the Hadrian's wall of text and then elect not to debate any counter points beyond facetious one liners.
Ah sorry, Im not here to debate my own opinions. they remain mine. You're welcome to your own take on the game, and add it here. Just seemed to me your first and only reaction was to try and tell me how my opinion was wrong. Its not, its my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
I don't consider them all wrong, just the part I quoted.
And you are of course free to take the stance that "it's my opinion, it can't be wrong", but I always find this can appear a bit stubborn. I have a friend who had a friend, who genuinely believed the sky was blue because it reflected the sea rather than the other way around. His defence was "it's my opinion etc". I'm not saying this example is at all comparable to such a blatant display of ignorance, but its always healthy to cross-examine your own opinions.
#15
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:55
Alexander1136
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+1 agree. i felt like it was an expansion or somethingsgreco1970 wrote...
Rather than continue to expound on the myriad problems in DA2, Its my hope that if I illustrate the things about DAO that made me just fall in love with the game perhaps the people behind DA2 will understand where the frustration with 2 is coming from and what would make a genuinely excellent DA3. I hope they take the time to read it.
Like the best and most classic fantasy stories, DAO opened with rumblings of epic danger to come. While your world was fairly status quo to begin with, Duncan soon appeared making desperate conscriptions to the Wardens because he, like all who have heard the dark whispers of "blight" and conflict, saw the storm clouds gathering on the horizon. Excellent! You felt an almost palpable urgency but yet knew that any day where you faced the hordes was still far off -yuou had much growing yet to do.
The game, especially with its unique selection of origins, fleshed out a fully realized and expansive feeling world quickly. You never felt the need to close out the game and go read a website to figure out what this world was all about. Its grand scope and large scale made the story all the more epic and immersive.
Immersiveness was key to DAO, and it didn't take long to feel you'd made the plunge into a real world. I'd say a large chunk of the immersion had to do with your companions. You could turn and engage them in conversations at any time, learning many details about their pasts, their personalities, forging friendships or relationships whether they were in camp or standing beside you. Their side quests only deepened your understanding of them and furthered your relationships for good or ill. When you elected to romance one of them you really felt that relationship develop. Let's take Alistair for example. Whenever you click on Alistair he says, "what now?" or "do this, do that *grumble*" until your friendship or romance begins to grow. Then he replies, "yes?" much less petulantly and that grows to "of course," and eventually, "what would have me do," and finally, "Yes, my love?" Sometimes he would initiate conversations, expressing his wants, needs, or concerns. Sometimes he just wanted to chat. You could feel the relationship deepening and eventually, when confronted with some serious plot developments at the end, you felt your heart wrenching. It mattered.
Even small side quests often led to a detailed, unique dungeon crawl that had me ooing and ahing. I couldn't believe how much time and detail was put into that game. Most every side quest felt like a fully fleshed out adventure. I was fascinated by the places I went, the twists and turns of the plot and the enormous impact my choices could make on the outcomes of each quest. Perhaps the biggest was Brother Genetivi who might become hero, disappointed scholar or corpse. Every time I sat down to play, amnd selected a quest, I was embarking on an adventure.
The characters had such marvelous and distinct personalities. Alistair literally had me laughing out loud all day. Wynne was deeply endearing and often moving. Leliana could always surprise me with another unexpected turn to her personality. Morrigan was as often hysterically funny as she was dark and dismaying. Sten was never what you expected. On and on, these characters had long detailed histories, realistic goals and wants and fears, were protrayed by distinctive and talented voice actors, and always grew from distant strangers to close knit family. They were the living, breathing heart and soul of DAO.
Between the carefully woven epic storyline and the richly detailed and endearing characters, every twist and turn of the main plotline had me emotionally invested. When King Calain fell in battle I felt both deeply hurt to see him die as well as broodingly angry at Loghain for his treachery. When Wynne told me of the spirit within her and that she may die soon, I was deeply moved and actually concerned for this fictional character. And when Alistair made his sacrifice for me on the battlefield, it completely broke my heart. Not bad for a video game.
----
DA2 lacks all of these things in abundance. I had a romance with Anders that I never saw but for one impassioned kiss sequence. We had very few conversations and I had absolutely no emotional investment in him. When my mother was, astoundingly enough, killed not by a Templar, not by a Blood Mage, not due to my error or poor choice, but instead by Ted Bundy on crack, I just shook my head. "What were they thinking?" was all i could say. I felt little to no bond with anyone, nothing but one or two lines ever made me laugh out loud, and I never felt like any map i explored was an adventure. The choices I made had nearly no impact on my story whatsoever, and while I felt the basic storyline was good, it was better suited to a short film than an interactive game. Frankly, I'd rather hear Bioware say that this game was a side-quest spin off of DAO and the real sequel is still in the works. I'm sorry, Bioware, I really am. Ive been one of your staunchest supporters since KOTOR and Jade Empire and have loved deeply every title you've put out...until now. Reign this title back in and make sure that DA3 will sweep the awards once again and enthrall your players in the rich and immersive world you made us fall in love with in DAO.
#16
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 07:38
Shacary
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I also agree with the OP. I didnt hate Da2, but i didnt like it. I woudl call it more action oriented than rpg. some love the ninja fighting and 3 sec conversation amongst multiple movies, others want more to fill the spots that the action movies etc left blank. I really really had a hard time caring about any of the toons in da2 except the arishok , I liked him! lol
I think for myself, i bought the game on the coat tails of the interaction story i felt immersed in DAO, But it was more like the genera of games i dont usually play long term. It was not imo what a rpg is. And i appreciate those who feel differently, but I feel this way, let down and irritated, I had to force myself to finish it, and was so fustrated by the stupid choices or lack of, and story plot line I wanted to kill all the peeps in kirkwell. they were all pretty much mean or stupid, or stupidly mean., hehe
I think for myself, i bought the game on the coat tails of the interaction story i felt immersed in DAO, But it was more like the genera of games i dont usually play long term. It was not imo what a rpg is. And i appreciate those who feel differently, but I feel this way, let down and irritated, I had to force myself to finish it, and was so fustrated by the stupid choices or lack of, and story plot line I wanted to kill all the peeps in kirkwell. they were all pretty much mean or stupid, or stupidly mean., hehe
