68 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
At least your theory doesn't involve taking all of Thedas on flimsy promises about fighting the darkspawn once there are "no other threats".

Good times.

@ Op.
I won't get into the argument that if Ferelden is going to develop, it's probably going to be under Anora's leadership and not Alistair. We already argued that  to death 


I definitely see the balance of power shifting in Ferelden's favor. That said, while it might be an emerging power in the short future, I do not see it ascending to the rank of 2nd or 3rd. There are still the Qunari, Tevinter and Nevarra.

But we do see Ferelden rising. We know that Amaranthine is beginning to rival Kikwall as a major commercial hub of the Waking Sea. Also, Ferelden has a strong basis for it to become a "modern" centralized state. It  has a relatively strong middle class and commoners, with a weaker nobility (and it needs to weaken more).It has proto-nationalist sentiments, which can serve as an impetus for the creation of a nation-state. And it has the idea that the king should be the first servant of the nation (the idea is loose, but still there). That, plus its connection with Orzammar, mineral wealth in Amaranthine at least, and ressources capable of providing a trade surplus (as per Anora epilogue and rise of Amaranthine). Plus, also symbolic power. Birthplace of Andraste AND Sacred Ashes, which also provide pilgrimage, aka commercial activity.

So I definitely see potential in Ferelden. As an emerging power. But it will take some time for it to become equal with the others, let alone surpass.

 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 03:33 .

[errant_knight]

If Ferelden is going to survive, it's going to have to rise, especially now that we know that there are factions in Orlais that want to retake it. I see Tevinter as powerful, but vulnerable to collapse under it's own weight, much like the Roman empire. Personally, I think DA3 will involve a Ferelden dealing with threats from Orlais and the mage/templar unrest. Who's to say what the balance of power will be at the end of that.

Gah! Forum slowness is making me nuts!

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[rak72]

If you talk to Avaline around yr 7, she says King Alistair has become somewhat of a sensation in Fereldan. He has also been pretty decent to the mages. Maybe with all of the circles crumbling all over Thedus, the Fereldan mages won't go completly nutso & stand to held protect Fereldan, while the other countries are being destroyed by the in fighting.

[errant_knight]

rak72 wrote...

If you talk to Avaline around yr 7, she says King Alistair has become somewhat of a sensation in Fereldan. He has also been pretty decent to the mages. Maybe with all of the circles crumbling all over Thedus, the Fereldan mages won't go completly nutso & stand to held protect Fereldan, while the other countries are being destroyed by the in fighting.

Meredith says that three of the mages she was pursuing took shelter in Ferelden, implying that Alistair was knowingly protecting them. He mocks her reasoning, but doesn't deny it. It doesn't seem farfetched to me that other mages might not follow, perhaps increasing Ferelden's power. He's not going to put put with a bunch of blood mages, though.

[Dean_the_Young]

And how would he know the difference? No one, not even the Templars or other mages, can look at a mage and know if they know or use blood magic or not. And once they're in, they are notoriously hard to root out... again, because of blood magic.


@KoP, just to quibble to quibble for quibbling's sake...

Technically, the epilogue doesn't say there was a trade surplus... only that trade policies that filled the Crown's coffers were put into effect. If you put in trade agreements favorable to importation, but also applied a tax that would send revenue of imports to the Crown, then you could well have trade deals that bolster the crown's coffers despite (or rather, because of) a net import.

But yes, I do agree with you that Anora's economic skills are likely better.

[errant_knight]

I'm not saying he wouldn't let them in the country, because, yes, he couldn't know. I'm saying that if they were discovered to be blood mages, they wouldn't live long. Refuge for mages, yes--blood mages, not so much.

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 mars 2011 - 04:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

[errant_knight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

[Raiil]

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

I can see Alistair basically saying, 'You're welcome if you're not a blood mage. Blood magic is illegal here.'


You figure that a lot of other mages find blood magic abhorrent, and there's no reason why they wouldn't be damn rigorous in policing their own. Personal opinion of course, but if I were a mage living under the grace of a King willing to bar the Chantry on my behalf, I would gut the first b---h that tried any sort of blood magic and thus tried to ruin it for us all.

[Heidenreich]

Valentia X wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

I can see Alistair basically saying, 'You're welcome if you're not a blood mage. Blood magic is illegal here.'


You figure that a lot of other mages find blood magic abhorrent, and there's no reason why they wouldn't be damn rigorous in policing their own. Personal opinion of course, but if I were a mage living under the grace of a King willing to bar the Chantry on my behalf, I would gut the first b---h that tried any sort of blood magic and thus tried to ruin it for us all.

This. "King Alistair allows mages freedoms no other country provides, not even tevinter! No blood magic = a happy life with kids and a wife and knowing your family. Living in your own home with your own land! Down with blood magic, up with Ferelden!"

[jma2286]

Read up on history. Ferelden is so minor in terms of world influence it's embarrassing. Orlais, Tevinter, and Nevarra are the powers in the world, in that order. To put it nicely, if the Frostback Mountains weren't in the way, everyone in Ferelden would be answering to the Chevaliers and speaking that goofy accent.

Ferelden is confused as a nation - even with the rise of Alistair or Anora, there are too many problems for them to fix. They denounce slavery but yet have rampant crime that they don't enforce very well. Slavers, raiders, and criminal guilds are rampant. The nobles barely agree on anything, fight with one another, and, as we saw with the Howes, betray each other to gain favor or a position. The King or Queen is a babysitter not an effective ruler. They just suffered a Blight and neither ruler likely has changed much about how the nation is run. If the newly emboldened mages find Ferelden an attractive location to stay, however, that could change a lot of things.

Even if that happens though, Orlais is very much like how France was under Napoleon; the most fearsome and wealthy land military in the world. Tevinter would be expanding too if they weren't at the Qunari's throats every day - they have infiltrated every nation in Thedas for the slave trade, is probably incredibly wealthy, have a world-class military, and have been practicing and perfecting magic for ages.

If the balance of power falls to anyone I think it's Nevarra. They are situated right between both Orlais and Tevinter and have the military capability to conquer both the Free Marches and Ferelden if given the time to by an Orleisian civil war. An interesting idea of what could happen; the Chantry is losing support left and right and Orlais is the center of academic pursuit in Thedas. They have been debating for years and with all the military power in Orlais it's possible that both sides could lash out. Sort of like the French Revolution. That might be Dragon Age 3's plot who knows.

Modifié par jma2286, 18 mars 2011 - 05:33 .

[errant_knight]

Read up on history, yourself. It's full of empires that collapsed--the Napoleonic empire being one. Napoleon was defeated by the British. And actually, I think the relationship between Ferelden and Orlais has more in common with the constant wars of the middle ages. Celene resembles Charlemagne more than Napoleon. Besides, what does it matter? This is fiction, and all that matters is what clues are being dropped as to the future. My take is that Ferelden is being positioned as a country that will play a key role. Yours differs, but we can't actually know what they have in mind.

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

That's fundamentally no different than the problem with the Circle, however, and the problem between Orisino and Meredith that led to this whole mess.

The problem isn't that Alistair will clamp down on the mages that they catch. The problem is that others will do it for him, whether he allows them or not.

If Alistair harbors mages and can't promise or guarantee their accountability and purity, the Templars are going to hold him to account if he continues to do that. Given the rising, nigh-inevitable war tensions between Orlais and Ferelden even before the Mage-Templar crisis, that's a rececipie for a war that is in no way in Alistair's pocket to win.

[Dean_the_Young]

Heidenreich wrote...

This. "King Alistair allows mages freedoms no other country provides, not even tevinter! No blood magic = a happy life with kids and a wife and knowing your family. Living in your own home with your own land! Down with blood magic, up with Ferelden!"

And what does this solve?

Besides the... vagueness of how much and what freedoms Alistair is offering (no one mentions giving them their own home, distinct from the circle, or letting them have families), mages are no better at rooting blood mages than anyone else. You'll have the exact same problems that Irving and Orsino had: those who don't know of blood mage plots, and those who know but don't reveal it for fear of political reprecussions of the admission.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 mars 2011 - 06:08 .

[errant_knight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

That's fundamentally no different than the problem with the Circle, however, and the problem between Orisino and Meredith that led to this whole mess.

The problem isn't that Alistair will clamp down on the mages that they catch. The problem is that others will do it for him, whether he allows them or not.

If Alistair harbors mages and can't promise or guarantee their accountability and purity, the Templars are going to hold him to account if he continues to do that. Given the rising, nigh-inevitable war tensions between Orlais and Ferelden even before the Mage-Templar crisis, that's a rececipie for a war that is in no way in Alistair's pocket to win.

So we saved Ferelden from the blight to be destroyed? Alistair's head on a pike? That's where you see this going?

[Maria13]

@ Dean: quibble. The Templars are attack dogs mabaris if you will, it will be the Chantry if anything that holds him to account, which combined with some regressive factions of the Orlesian nobility may well seek to occupy Ferelden once again under the guise of an Exalted March against a heretic King.

As Meredith says: "I hope the next time Ferelden elects a King they choose one who is more aware of his duties to the Maker."

[PantheraOnca]

This discussion reminds me of the codex entry:

"The Anders, too, are a people of extremes: The most devout priests and the most deadly soldiers, the poorest nation in the world and the most feared."

and

"The Fereldans are a puzzle. As a people, they are one bad day away from reverting to barbarism. They repelled invasions from Tevinter during the height of the Imperium with nothing but dogs and their own obstinate disposition. They are the coarse, willful, dirty, disorganized people who somehow gave rise to our prophet, ushered in an era of enlightenment, and toppled the greatest empire in history."

So while they may not have the mightiest X, it seems that Ferelden has really high societal "crit damage" and I'm betting that comes in to play in DA3.


edit: to clarify, I think economic or military standing is less relevant in thedas than one might think.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 18 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[Coous]

errant_knight wrote...

Read up on history, yourself. It's full of empires that collapsed--the Napoleonic empire being one. Napoleon was defeated by the British. And actually, I think the relationship between Ferelden and Orlais has more in common with the constant wars of the middle ages. Celene resembles Charlemagne more than Napoleon. Besides, what does it matter? This is fiction, and all that matters is what clues are being dropped as to the future. My take is that Ferelden is being positioned as a country that will play a key role. Yours differs, but we can't actually know what they have in mind.

Actually if you ask me Celene is more like Tsarina Cathrine the Great than anyone else,but you can argue a lot of points how fictional people are like the real historical people, and you can easily argue how much Anora is like Elizabeth I. Which after 1588 England became stronger to having more naval power than the rest of Continental Europe except maybe the United Providences and their Golden Age in the 1600's.

I'd like to see a seven years war esque happenings with Navarra(imo a mock Prussia) with Fereldan(England) take on Orlais(France),or even a sense of whole of keeping balance of power like the war of Spanish Succesion showing some continental coporation. I think Fereldan is in a posistion to have some glory time,but only with help and some shapping up, and hopefully they don't get a mock Cromwell. 

Also to note Napoleon was defeated by a coaltion not British strength a long,but sure Britian was major in but no way they could do it alone they need the help of Prussia,Austria, and Russia to do such.

[Dean_the_Young]

errant_knight wrote...

That's fundamentally no different than the problem with the Circle, however, and the problem between Orisino and Meredith that led to this whole mess.

The problem isn't that Alistair will clamp down on the mages that they catch. The problem is that others will do it for him, whether he allows them or not.

If Alistair harbors mages and can't promise or guarantee their accountability and purity, the Templars are going to hold him to account if he continues to do that. Given the rising, nigh-inevitable war tensions between Orlais and Ferelden even before the Mage-Templar crisis, that's a rececipie for a war that is in no way in Alistair's pocket to win.

So we saved Ferelden from the blight to be destroyed? Alistair's head on a pike? That's where you see this going?

Well, Ferelden certainly has no claim to be blessed and successful forever more no matter the policy. We certainly saved enough mages and people in DA2 only to see them die regardless. If Alistair's policies regarding the mages, and his response towards Templar (and Orlesian) concerns amounts to a '**** you,' devestation of Ferelden wouldn't be impossible or even unreasonable.

While Ferelden doesn't necessarily need to be destroyed for such mage-friendly policies to... not work out for the best, the fallout of such policies can certainly be far less than benevolent utopia. There's certainly a wide spectrum in between.

Ideally, and I say ideally because I have significantly more faith in the Templars and Orlais than in Ferelden's willingness and ability to fight to victory on behalf of the mages, an utterly devastating war and the possible loss of Ferelden could be adverted if Alistair made compromises about his policies towards the mages. Hopefully, this would come before the casualties became too many to count.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Maria13 wrote...

@ Dean: quibble. The Templars are attack dogs mabaris if you will, it will be the Chantry if anything that holds him to account, which combined with some regressive factions of the Orlesian nobility may well seek to occupy Ferelden once again under the guise of an Exalted March against a heretic King.

As Meredith says: "I hope the next time Ferelden elects a King they choose one who is more aware of his duties to the Maker."

With the Templars and Magi both out of control, it may well be the Templars who, via their military might and initiative and influence, act as the catalyst for war with a mage-harboring Ferelden.

I will freely admit, however, that the situation is to vague, and the future too uncertain, to definitively say who or what will spark off what sort of war.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Zalocx]

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

That's fundamentally no different than the problem with the Circle, however, and the problem between Orisino and Meredith that led to this whole mess.

The problem isn't that Alistair will clamp down on the mages that they catch. The problem is that others will do it for him, whether he allows them or not.

If Alistair harbors mages and can't promise or guarantee their accountability and purity, the Templars are going to hold him to account if he continues to do that. Given the rising, nigh-inevitable war tensions between Orlais and Ferelden even before the Mage-Templar crisis, that's a rececipie for a war that is in no way in Alistair's pocket to win.

So we saved Ferelden from the blight to be destroyed? Alistair's head on a pike? That's where you see this going?

And why not? Saving the world from a tainted dragon- god does not magically mean the end of things like political ramifications for well intentioned but reckless policies

[Augustei]

Herr Uhl wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The mages were the ones who stopped the last Qunari invasion, if all the mages flock to ferelden.. Then no way would the Qunari stand a chance against Ferelden

The mages, *and* a huge amount of soldiers. People seem to forget that, the mages were the Chantry-lands edge as they were better than the ones of the Qunari. It has also been hinted that the Qunari drew back because their converts were getting killed in the cross-fire.

But yeah, having mages totally makes Tevinter wipe the floor with them.

Tevinter maybe, but their millitary might isn't as noteworthy as Nevarras who is quickly becoming the most powerful nation in thedas atm. About to suceed Orlais so Nevarra can deal with Tevinter, Ferelden with the Qunari

Since when is Nevarra quickly becoming the strongest nation in Thedas? Tevinter single-handedly managed to fend off four exhalted marches and waging a war with the qunari (granted, the Qunari are going on half speed).

Seriously though, with a hold on the lyrium trade, a Ferelden leading the remenants of the eastern templars, a Ferelden as champion of Kirkwall, and all the mages fleeing the circles coming to Ferelden. They just keep getting stronger and stronger.

*sigh* They also have the infrastructure of a landslide following the blight, it'll take a long time for them to climb back to their pre-blight status, which was weakest nation in Thedas.

And why would the templars condone having all mages being free there?

Plus the divines right hand and head of the seekers considers herself a ferelden, the divine lived in Ferelden for a while we dont know how long, and could consider herself a ferelden as well.

Leliana and the Divine would see to the needs of the Chantry first. Would they support the country that abolishes the Circles?

And if the hero of ferelden returns, then he could also get the house of crows to lend Ferelden support through Zevran.

This is if the hero returns, was a friend of Zevran and didn't do the US. That is many things that need to happen. This is however the most likely of all your theories.

The Order is more: Orlais, Nevarra, Tevinter.

Its already been mentioned that Nevarra is a growing power to rival already, They already are quite capable of "Stopping the nation dead in its tracks" as the Champion codex put it.
However, with Orlesian threat as well as Tevinter, Nevarra will be looking for Allys.
Nevarra and Ferelden have a common history with Orlais; Both have been under Orlesian rule, both have warred and been invaded by them. Both border Orlais as well.
It makes perfect sense for Nevarra and Ferelden to ally togeather so they can apply pressure to the Orlesian Empire on both its borders putting it in a much weaker position.
A Nevarran, Orlesian alliance is quite unlikely due to their "Rich" history togeather.

When it comes to Ferelden, they have an enemy bordering them on one side. And an ally to help them secure the channel being Kirkwall.

Kirkwall has a Ferelden viscount (If sided with templars)& A Ferelden Knight Commander for their central power (The Templars) 
It would make perfect sense for Kirkwall to ally itself with Ferelden. So the channel would be in Ferelden Favor, since its unlikely Orlais could really secure it while fighting a war on two fronts.

[Augustei]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So long as they keep it on the down low, which is very possible, a refuge for mages is a refuge for blood mages, and it's impossible to prove or support that it isn't.

*Shrug* So they get killed if they get discovered. They don't actually seem to be striving for a low profile. All I'm saying is that while Alistair would support the mages and protect them where possible, he also has strong beliefs about blood magic.

That's fundamentally no different than the problem with the Circle, however, and the problem between Orisino and Meredith that led to this whole mess.

The problem isn't that Alistair will clamp down on the mages that they catch. The problem is that others will do it for him, whether he allows them or not.

If Alistair harbors mages and can't promise or guarantee their accountability and purity, the Templars are going to hold him to account if he continues to do that. Given the rising, nigh-inevitable war tensions between Orlais and Ferelden even before the Mage-Templar crisis, that's a rececipie for a war that is in no way in Alistair's pocket to win.

Not in Alistairs pocket at all? So an alliance with Nevarra, Kirkwall, A Strangehold on the lyrium trade.. Orlais having to fight a war on two fronts, Possible support of a massive number of mages. None of that is noteworthy?

Besides if Alistair plays his cards right, Ferelden will be one of the few countries with infighting and wars within its borders.. Whereas Orlais would have war within its borders

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 18 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Augustei]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

@ Dean: quibble. The Templars are attack dogs mabaris if you will, it will be the Chantry if anything that holds him to account, which combined with some regressive factions of the Orlesian nobility may well seek to occupy Ferelden once again under the guise of an Exalted March against a heretic King.

As Meredith says: "I hope the next time Ferelden elects a King they choose one who is more aware of his duties to the Maker."

With the Templars and Magi both out of control, it may well be the Templars who, via their military might and initiative and influence, act as the catalyst for war with a mage-harboring Ferelden.

I will freely admit, however, that the situation is to vague, and the future too uncertain, to definitively say who or what will spark off what sort of war.

Well then it remains to be see what Cullen places of higher importance, his homeland or the wishes of the masters of his order... However it is quite possible that the chantry will gain no support from their eastern power