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[Dean_the_Young]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Not in Alistairs pocket at all?

So an alliance with Nevarra, Kirkwall,

Not inherent at all, especially Kirkwall which in the post-game is decidedly anti-mage and in direct economic competition with Amaranthine.

A Strangehold on the lyrium trade..

Debatable at best, and highly dependent on certain Dwarves who own interests are not identical with the Ferelden monarchy's.

There's also the matter of the other dwarven city, as well as any Deep Roads that lead to export areas the Fereldens couldn't stop.

Orlais having to fight a war on two fronts,

And still outweighs Ferelden immensily.

Even a war Orlais 'loses', if it does at all, could be catastrophic for Ferelden's post-war prospects.

None of that is noteworthy?

Oh, it's noteworthy. But not assured, it isn't persuasive on its own without significant other factors (like, say, the fruition of such alliances), and it's easy to fail regardless. You're presuming that Kirkwall and Nevarra, for example, would be happy to sacrifice their own interests on behalf of letting Orlais get bogged down in Ferelden, which gives them much more vis-a-vis Ferelden and Orlais than waging war with Orlais to spare Ferelden of it.

Besides if Alistair plays his cards right, Ferelden will be one of the few countries with infighting and wars within its borders.. Whereas Orlais would have war within its borders

...I'm going to presume you meant without war within its borders? Even though if Orlais has a war with Ferelden, it's going to be in Ferelden's borders. If Orlais has a war with Nevarra, which is nowhere near as implied, it isn't assured to be on Orlais' own turf either.

Because wars abroad/at the borders are far less devestating than wars within ones borders. Which, should be pointed out, is not assured at all inside Ferelden, given how devoutly Andrastian it is.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[Emzamination]

Alistair is nothing more then a pretty poster boy who I only keep around because of his blood  

With Queen emz aka The hero of ferelden aka the blight ender aka the god slayer as the real power behind the throne ferelden will always be the center of power 

[Jiggasaurus]

Hmm Fereldens standing with the other nations might peak interest, they did after all effectively hold off the blight with the smallest number of Wardens imaginable. There is also the loss of many wardens on Ferelden soil thanks to the outlawing of them prior to your origins character forming an alliance.

I think ultimately there is a bit too much in-house fighting going on for Fereleden to be considered a new super-power in Thedas. You had to make choices who you wanted to build your alliances with gaining allies with some yet forming enemies from other sectors of the Ferelden and Thedas populace. If they had managed to achieve an almost dictatorial ruling bringing all their forces together they could stand a chance but the war against the dark spawns blight and awakenings flock left them damaged, even a target for other nations to pounce upon if they choose to do so (which if the events from DA2 are anything to go by doesn’t seem to of happened).

Ferelden needs a rebuilding process, the combined war against Orlais quickly followed by the war against the dark spawn has left them resilient and yet with the burden of carrying heavy scars. There best hope to gain power would be to let other nations tear themselves down around them whilst they retain some semblance of peace.

There is also the situation with the Ferelden wild cards, Flemeth has left to mvoe on through the Free Marches & the Chasind are by and large an unknown entity in the Ferelden area.

Modifié par Jiggasaurus, 18 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Augustei]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Not in Alistairs pocket at all?

So an alliance with Nevarra, Kirkwall,

Not inherent at all, especially Kirkwall which in the post-game is decidedly anti-mage and in direct economic competition with Amaranthine.

A Strangehold on the lyrium trade..

Debatable at best, and highly dependent on certain Dwarves who own interests are not identical with the Ferelden monarchy's.

There's also the matter of the other dwarven city, as well as any Deep Roads that lead to export areas the Fereldens couldn't stop.

Orlais having to fight a war on two fronts,

And still outweighs Ferelden immensily.

Even a war Orlais 'loses', if it does at all, could be catastrophic for Ferelden's post-war prospects.

None of that is noteworthy?

Oh, it's noteworthy. But not assured, it isn't persuasive on its own without significant other factors (like, say, the fruition of such alliances), and it's easy to fail regardless. You're presuming that Kirkwall and Nevarra, for example, would be happy to sacrifice their own interests on behalf of letting Orlais get bogged down in Ferelden, which gives them much more vis-a-vis Ferelden and Orlais than waging war with Orlais to spare Ferelden of it.

Besides if Alistair plays his cards right, Ferelden will be one of the few countries with infighting and wars within its borders.. Whereas Orlais would have war within its borders

...I'm going to presume you meant without war within its borders? Even though if Orlais has a war with Ferelden, it's going to be in Ferelden's borders. If Orlais has a war with Nevarra, which is nowhere near as implied, it isn't assured to be on Orlais' own turf either.

Because wars abroad/at the borders are far less devestating than wars within ones borders. Which, should be pointed out, is not assured at all inside Ferelden, given how devoutly Andrastian it is.

1) Sure A Nevarran Alliance cannot be a given, cannot be certain.. But it cannot be easily dismissed either, They both hate Orlais, Both have suffered under their occupation and its already been Revealed its in Nevarras interests to knock Orlais out of the picture as central power, So an Alliance with Ferelden is seemingly beneficial to them and relevent to their interests.
And Kirkwall, The city whose Templar commander is a Ferelden and whose possible Viscount is also a Ferelden.

2) Kal-Sharok, the other dwarven city your referring to has no Lyrium and is like a mile beneath the ground and inaccessible from the surface.. Unless you plan to enter the deep roads somewhere else and fight your way through a tonne of darkspawn.. Thats why the dwarves moved the capital to Orzammar so they could trade with the surface.. So Kal-Sharok is definitly not at all related to the lyrium trade, and since Orzammar is the last great thaig, It is the centre, and only real place for the lyrium trade... So The Lyrium trade is within Fereldens borders at the top of a mountain.. Upon taking control of it, it wont be easy to loose.

[Dean_the_Young]

XxDeonxX wrote...
1) Sure A Nevarran Alliance cannot be a given, cannot be certain.. But it cannot be easily dismissed either, They both hate Orlais, Both have suffered under their occupation and its already been Revealed its in Nevarras interests to knock Orlais out of the picture as central power, So an Alliance with Ferelden is seemingly beneficial to them and relevent to their interests.

For the purpose of a 'how hard would it be to **** Ferelden up', it can be dismissed. Even an ideal war could go very badly, and very catastrophic for Ferelden's post-war prospects at being a superpower. Since the point isn't 'who would ultimately win', but 'how likely is Ferelden to arise as a superpower all current trends considered', plausibilities are more important than certainties.

There are, after all, all sorts of alliances between the three that don't benefit Ferelden more than the others. If they encourage Ferelden enough to stab itself on Orlais's sword, as opposed to Ferelden's requirement of them doing the same... well, that, to, serves their interests and costs them far, far less.

Balance of power feuds are far less about throwing yourselves at mutual enemies, and far more about throwing the far more pressed people at your mutual enemies instead of you. But, like I said, not quite relevant to the discussion at hand.

And Kirkwall, The city whose Templar commander is a Ferelden and whose possible Viscount is also a Ferelden.

A possible Viscount who isn't Viscount and disappears after a decade of refusing to leave Kirkwall for Ferelden, and a man who's sworn himself to the very order that's one of the most significant threats, and certainly ideologically opposed, to Ferelden's mage-leniant policies.

2) Kal-Sharok, the other dwarven city your referring to has no Lyrium and is like a mile beneath the ground and inaccessible from the surface.. Unless you plan to enter the deep roads somewhere else and fight your way through a tonne of darkspawn.. Thats why the dwarves moved the capital to Orzammar so they could trade with the surface.. So Kal-Sharok is definitly not at all related to the lyrium trade, and since Orzammar is the last great thaig, It is the centre, and only real place for the lyrium trade... So The Lyrium trade is within Fereldens borders at the top of a mountain.. Upon taking control of it, it wont be easy to loose.

All it would take for Kal-Sharok to become a part of the lyrium trade is very modest handwaving and pointing to the pressures of war making it economically viable to do so. When there is peace, and when there is war, cost-benefits change. If lyrium from Kal-Sharok costs twenty times as much and the Chantry had an agreement with Orzamaar not to enter such agreements with Kal-Sharok in exchange for better purchases from Orzamar... well, that agreement is rather nullified is King Alistair tries to control the Lyrium Trade himself.

And, of course, the fact that Alistair's ability to hold the Dwarven trade is also hampered by the Mountains, and the deep roads. The Dwarves don't have to push all their lyrium out of the entrance, even if Alistair can and does sit an army on top of a nominal ally. They can cart and carry out of other Deep Road entrances (and exits) beyond the blockade lines.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time the Dwarves smuggled using the Deep Roads, even against sworn treaties promising not to. And in this case, there are no sworn treaties promising not to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Augustei]

Kal-Sharok has no lyrium, Hawke is viscount for 4 years. He could nagotiate treaties of alliance or anything in that time, and we dont know he goes back to ferelden

Ferelden would be facing the Austria-Hungary of the central powers if war with Orlais occoured. The "Might of the Empire" would be trivial.. It wouldn't be a cause for catastrophic concern. Ferelden managed to secure its independance against an Orlais with moderate Orlesian support from the Emperor.. It would be the same case as that. Except Ferelden has more going for it than it did then.. For one, they havn't lost their country yet. Already experiencing one occupation, The Ferelden Nobles would be more unified now against an orlesian threat.. And the Empire hasn't grown stronger since the last occupation, its grown weaker. It is constantly growing weaker ever since Emperor Drakon has been off the throne pretty much.. Their main strength was in the chantry, which has now fallen apart.. Orlais strength is not great enough to take on both Nevarra and Ferelden.. Managing to push into their enemies borders is an unlikely assumption.

Celene doesn't want war with Ferelden, upon her death Alistair would make the first move. Mobilising his troops across the Frostbacks.. It might be possible to push into Nevarras borders, we dont know however due to lack of information.. But at the start of the mage Revolution and the collapse of the chantry.. it could be safe to assume that Nevarra would then be the superpower and would probably push into the Orlesian border

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 18 mars 2011 - 09:41 .

[Augustei]

Also almost forgot the economic strength factoring in to Millitary strength. Fereldens economy and wealth would most definitly grow to be very strong. They have the Urn of Sacred Ashes in their borders. Every country in Thedas is Andrestian save for 3.. So Ferelden could finance better training and equiptment for their armies, and even recruit mercenarie bands and large groups like The Raiders of the Waking sea say, The Antivan crows (and get a fair few cells) So thats another reason why Ferelden could take top spot =D

[IronWolf1987]

I don't about anyone else but my Warden had a cunning score so high he was basically the Batman of Thedas. As long as he and Ferelden have time to plan, then they'll win any war against anyone.

[Talogrungi]

I kinda doubt it, to be honest. Ferelden was pretty decimated in the Blight.

If there's a world war between Orlais, Tevinter and the Qunari in DA3 then it's possible that Ferelden will have the time to rebuild itself and become a (the?) major player on the world stage, but that's a lot of assumption.

[Augustei]

Talogrungi wrote...

I kinda doubt it, to be honest. Ferelden was pretty decimated in the Blight.

If there's a world war between Orlais, Tevinter and the Qunari in DA3 then it's possible that Ferelden will have the time to rebuild itself and become a (the?) major player on the world stage, but that's a lot of assumption.

That devistation wont be that bad if they are stinking rich from the urn and can rebuild super fast =D

Plus A war seems very likely between those three and all the other countries of Thedas

[Clonedzero]

well Ferelden has always been a fairly small unimportant country based on the games history. It was occupied and controlled by orlias for a long time till they regained their independance.

then it was the only country in the world ravaged by the 5th blight, its probably STILL recovering at the end of DA2. so even in its prime it wasn't that powerful, and its most certainly not in its prime, losing huge areas to the blight. those areas being tainted and diseased. tons of people dying. ect.

sure, alistair, the warden and hawke are from fereldan and they're the biggest known badasses in the world, but well 3 dudes dont fix a country on the grand scheme.

[azarhal]

Clonedzero wrote...

sure, alistair, the warden and hawke are from fereldan and they're the biggest known badasses in the world, but well 3 dudes dont fix a country on the grand scheme.

The warden is only Ferelden if he's a human noble or an city elve. The Dalish clan isn't from Ferelden and they don't care about borders anyway and the Dwarves have their own country and king.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I can't believe this is still being debated.

Fereldan before the Blight was a small unimportant and fairly weak country. After the blight it was made even more weak. Lossing more than 50% of its army at least and having its main city being completly destroyed along with the entire south of the country being destroyed and as hinted in a letter may never recover from the blight.

People who say that Orlais will be weak now because of the mages revolting aren't thinking about one obvious thing... the revolt happened in Fereldan too. So the damage the mages would have done to Orlais would be the same if not more damaging in Fereldan.

Why would we even want to go back to that country anyway? We have plenty of more impressive and more relevant places in Thedas to go. I'd rather not waste an entire game being in the same place I was in the first game.

[Soltan Heatwave]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Can I conquer the Free Marches first?

Because when I heard the Free Marches were just a bunch of City States I wanted to go all Alexander the Great on Thedas and unite them under one rule; my own.

But sure, why not make Ferelden the British Empire.

Maybe in the first expansion.  As I see it Hawke heads either to the bone pit or to Sunder Mountains, gathers up all the Fereldan refugees, and starts a conquest of the Free Marches.  After the conquest he can either have them annexed by King Alistair, or at the very least form an alliance with Fereldan.   In time maybe Hawke can become the emperor of the Fereldan Empire and kick butt on Orlais.   After all it only took year to defeat a blight and that occurred during a civil war.   No other nation in Thedas has been able to defeat a blight so rapidly.

Modifié par Soltan Heatwave, 21 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[Augustei]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I can't believe this is still being debated.

Fereldan before the Blight was a small unimportant and fairly weak country. After the blight it was made even more weak. Lossing more than 50% of its army at least and having its main city being completly destroyed along with the entire south of the country being destroyed and as hinted in a letter may never recover from the blight.

People who say that Orlais will be weak now because of the mages revolting aren't thinking about one obvious thing... the revolt happened in Fereldan too. So the damage the mages would have done to Orlais would be the same if not more damaging in Fereldan.

Why would we even want to go back to that country anyway? We have plenty of more impressive and more relevant places in Thedas to go. I'd rather not waste an entire game being in the same place I was in the first game.

We dont need to return to Ferelden for these things to occour.. And like I said Ferelden now could have the Urn of sacred ashes as well which would bring them mass amounts of wealth so rebuilding wont be that much of an issue, plus they could hire the crows, raiders of the waking sea and / or various other guilds and factions with their newfound wealth.. =D

[jabajack]

During the Blight Ferelden gained quite a number of allies, the dwarves under Bhelen would offer new trading options and military support. The Dalish have been given lands in the South around Ostagar and many clans have travelled there and if Ferelden is attacked they would offer support in fear of loosing such lands again. Ferelden's army is greatly weakened but has alot of experience and veterens (they have faced the unrelenting horde). The wardens of Amaranthine (despite the First Warden claims) would fight for Ferelden as well as the SIlver Order.

Despite a few Orlais nobles arguing for an invasion of Ferelden Celine is keeping the peace atm, when the mage revolution emerges those nobles will have something else to occupy them. Speaking of the revolution, the Circle and Templars in Ferelden are weakened due to the Blight and Tower incident, any uprising would be easier to handle.

Ferelden will need time to recoup their losses but will go through a reneissance, The Urn of Sacred Ashes bringing culture (possibly favour and leniance from the Divine). Its economy will grow will Amaranthine, Dwarven trading and Dalish (Keeper Lanaya promoting friendly terms). With Alistair and the Warden offering strong leadership to many reforms I think Ferelden will become a powerful player but probably not the sole superpower

[Augustei]

yeah Maybe Nevarra will take first place but with their similar history with the superpower Orlais I can see an alliance being made between the two

[MKDAWUSS]

I'm kinda curious as to how any Ferelden-Orlais conflict would be resolved.

The funniest outcome would have been for Queen Anora and Empress Celene to fight it out in a mud pit. The Proving Master oversees the rules and regulations of the fight. Anora and Celene strip down to their undies, enter the mud pit, and FIGHT!

In all honesty, I think that the monarchs (Alistair/Anora and Celene) would get along rather well, despite the history involving their parents. It's probably the more conservative quarters in both countries that would be eager to engage in war. If Witch Hunt is any indication, Ferelden is already starting to become divided...

[Augustei]

Another outcome is Alistair and Celene marry to form the nation of Orlelden and with a unified force invade Nevarra.... I dont like that outcome anywhere near as much as the Nevarra Ferelden Alliance though