64 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Both groups need to be destroyed.

Were I to form how mages were treated in Thedas - it certainly wouldn't be allowing them to gather in large groups in their own private tower. It certainly wouldn't be free either - mages are not "born equal" to other men - they have a disproportionate amount of power without any responsibility to wield that power. It's like a kid who's parents are rich - look how most of them turn out. Now - give that kid the opportunity to enslave mass amounts of the population - yeah, these psychos need regulating.

I would make "First Enchanters" on the basis of loyalty to the state - they would have to prove themselves over decades of service and then finally receive their license. They would then be given two Templars under their command - who answer to him, but report to the Chantry - these Templars are transferred out on a yearly basis.

The First Enchanter would have a small cadre of students to teach how he sees fit - Blood Magic would remain forbidden completely - even access to book about it would cause Seeker investigation. At the very least - the books are burned and the First Enchanter is stripped of his license. At the worst - the whole Cadre is made Tranquil or killed - their choice.

They can have families - but all family members would be registered with the state as potential mages. Hiding a family member would be suspicion of sedition against the state - Seekers would get involved - parent would face either fines or hard labor.

Then I'd employ state sanctioned mages who are laborers. Builders, farmers, healers, all using magic for the betterment of the state - still under supervision of Templars, but given freedoms not even enjoyed by their First Enchanter and Cadre brethren.

Basically - you prove you're serving the state, you can keep your awesome power and your freedom. You prove you want to be unhealthy for the populace - you're removed.

[Seb Smith]

Both are extremes, which causes conflict. There are innocents on both side, that said they both annoyed me with all their crying. I don't know why the Templars are so scared of demons that are pretty easy to kill.

[BlackIce541]

I could never bring myself to side with the templars, call me crazy, but I was born in America.

Thus I could never with a clear mind imprison those that have not been charged with a crime.

In this case templars accusing mages of being guilty simply for being born with magic that was not they're choice to make.

That and imprisoning them, refusing to let them have contact with they're families is just cruel.

Even convited prisoners are allowed visits.

[Seb Smith]

Scatcat101 wrote...

I could never bring myself to side with the templars, call me crazy, but I was born in America.

Thus I could never with a clear mind imprison those that have not been charged with a crime.

In this case templars accusing mages of being guilty simply for being born with magic that was not they're choice to make.

That and imprisoning them, refusing to let them have contact with they're families is just cruel.

Even convited prisoners are allowed visits.

Ha Guantanamo Bay anyone?

[AkiKishi]

Seb Smith wrote...
Ha Guantanamo Bay anyone?

Only if you sent every muslim there just in case they might be a terrorist.
It's more like a WWII internment of the Japanese where they locked everyone up just in case.

[Seb Smith]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Seb Smith wrote...
Ha Guantanamo Bay anyone?

Only if you sent every muslim there just in case they might be a terrorist.
It's more like a WWII internment of the Japanese where they locked everyone up just in case.

True, but my point was mearly they have detained innocent people removing their freedom. Which legality is under constant questioning.

[Will Moor]

Seb Smith wrote...

Scatcat101 wrote...

I could never bring myself to side with the templars, call me crazy, but I was born in America.

Thus I could never with a clear mind imprison those that have not been charged with a crime.

In this case templars accusing mages of being guilty simply for being born with magic that was not they're choice to make.

That and imprisoning them, refusing to let them have contact with they're families is just cruel.

Even convited prisoners are allowed visits.

Ha Guantanamo Bay anyone?

The poster you are attacking was merely stating that they hold to their country's stated ideals and for this reason they believe everyone should be free.   Just because a country has tarnishes in their history doesn't mean you have to ridicule and guffaw brayingly at anyone who is proud of the good aspects of said country.  C'mon now.   Lets remain friendly and stay on topic.  

[joslittle]

I sided with the mages, cause the templars were jerks. And I would have loved a real decision somewhere at the end, like oigins had. Not saying I didn't enjoy DA2, just saying, a monumental decision would have been nice.

[Legbiter]

Mages should be kept in proper Circles & overseen by templars. To be wheeled out in case of the odd Blight/Qunari invasion.

[Icy Magebane]

I think I'd rather be playing a game where the goal is saving the world than impotently trying to mediate two sides of a political conflict. The only reason I'd play this game again is for the combat. That's it.

[DariusKalera]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well you could say that finding object X was the catalyst but that's not something Hawke chooses ,or even keeps.

I got the impression that she was already bat **** insane before she even acquired that item. 

Besides, what exactly could she really do with it?  Nibble on it to get her lyrium fix?

[Chaos_1001]

DariusKalera wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well you could say that finding object X was the catalyst but that's not something Hawke chooses ,or even keeps.

I got the impression that she was already bat **** insane before she even acquired that item. 

Besides, what exactly could she really do with it?  Nibble on it to get her lyrium fix?

I must admit , after finding "x"item in the game I wondered to myself , "is that thing going to come back to bite me ? " and I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it did. My exact reaction of "said event" was something like this..

Ahh final encounter , ok team lets kick the same arse we have been the whole game ...wait ..what is ...that ? oh shi.. !

[DariusKalera]

Chaos_1001 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Well you could say that finding object X was the catalyst but that's not something Hawke chooses ,or even keeps.

I got the impression that she was already bat **** insane before she even acquired that item. 

Besides, what exactly could she really do with it?  Nibble on it to get her lyrium fix?

I must admit , after finding "x"item in the game I wondered to myself , "is that thing going to come back to bite me ? " and I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it did. My exact reaction of "said event" was something like this..

Ahh final encounter , ok team lets kick the same arse we have been the whole game ...wait ..what is ...that ? oh shi.. !

Actually, when said item showed up again all that went through my mind was "Oh, there it is." and was somewhat disappointed.  I had been hoping that there would be another line of quests trying to track it down or something.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

I'm completely on the mages' side. I'm not on the side of mages who turn to evil, but not all mages turn to evil so it isn't justified to lock up all of them. It isn't right to deprive innocents of their freedom even if it seems to be for the greater good. As has been said earlier in the thread, the templars should be there to police those who do wrong, not to imprison all who show the potential to possibly do harm.

The way I play it in character is to give mages the benefit of the doubt, unless they have turned to blood magic. I don't want to give any spoilers, but I'll say that there was an instance of a blood mage who seems to have been innocent of a specific crime, but my character didn't trust him, so she wrongfully killed him. I'm playing blood magic as her moral blind spot. If those I show the benefit of the doubt later come back to bite me in the ass, I'll take responsibility for my actions and personally make sure they can do no more harm. I think it is the most moral way to play a character under these conditions, aside from the prejudice against blood magic, which is an intentional flaw I've built into her character. Yeah, she's not too fond of Merrill.

Though it isn't necessarily a flaw to hate blood magic. In Origins, it seems like blood magic is risque, but not necessarily evil. In DA2, it seems that blood magic is pretty much straight-up evil.

[Deylar]

DariusKalera wrote...
Actually, when said item showed up again all that went through my mind was "Oh, there it is." and was somewhat disappointed.  I had been hoping that there would be another line of quests trying to track it down or something.

It might have added more to go search for it first. Than for it to be shwon to me.

[Chaos_1001]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...

I'm completely on the mages' side. I'm not on the side of mages who turn to evil, but not all mages turn to evil so it isn't justified to lock up all of them. It isn't right to deprive innocents of their freedom even if it seems to be for the greater good. As has been said earlier in the thread, the templars should be there to police those who do wrong, not to imprison all who show the potential to possibly do harm.

The way I play it in character is to give mages the benefit of the doubt, unless they have turned to blood magic. I don't want to give any spoilers, but I'll say that there was an instance of a blood mage who seems to have been innocent of a specific crime, but my character didn't trust him, so she wrongfully killed him. I'm playing blood magic as her moral blind spot. If those I show the benefit of the doubt later come back to bite me in the ass, I'll take responsibility for my actions and personally make sure they can do no more harm. I think it is the most moral way to play a character under these conditions, aside from the prejudice against blood magic, which is an intentional flaw I've built into her character. Yeah, she's not too fond of Merrill.

Though it isn't necessarily a flaw to hate blood magic. In Origins, it seems like blood magic is risque, but not necessarily evil. In DA2, it seems that blood magic is pretty much straight-up evil.

Honestly (and this is coming from a mage who specialized not one time , but twice in blood magic !  Origins and 2 ) blood magic..is by far the most part pure evil. It can ( story wise ) corrupt the character, be used to incite horrific acts of evil, ( sacrificing a " fellow player" ) possess enemy npc's and drain your own life force. Really the only saving grace to specializing in "this tree of forbidden knowledge" is the main character is bound by the "player's free will" which means in a sense , no adverse or counteractive side effects to whatever specialization you choose. Only in Origins did this actually matter and even then it was on a very isolated and small scale event.  

[Meltemph]

I thought it was ridiculous how almost every single mage you encounter is a puppy-kicking, demon-summoning, moustache-twirling tophat-wearing "Evil" blood mage. Absolutely ridiculous. No nuance whatsoever, just David Gaider trying to drive home with a sledgehammer the idea that mages without variation are soooo dangerous! Look, they are ALL evil blood mages, every single last one of them!

Absurd.

"Codex Spoilers!" Regarding the high amount of evil mages.



















































Well if you read through the enigma codex's about Kirkwall, it mentions that it has always had a significantly higher blood magic/demon summoning/Abomination rate then any of the other 18 circles, and that they believed it might be do to the Tevinter doing something nasty under the city.

Apparently they were purposely trying to rip the veil open, permanently, under the city and because of that there are many places in Kirkwall underground, where demons can come across in the natural form.

As for what side I am on... Neither really. Mages have to be regulated somehow because of the things they are susceptible to. However, the way the Templars/chantry have gone about it, is nothing short of boiling the bot.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 mars 2011 - 06:58 .

[MonkaCZ]

 The inability to make both sides come to reason frustrated me. There is fault on both sides:

Templars are fascists and do not really care for mages. Instead they are paranoid, cannot see they aren't all the same, boss them around and beat them up. They often even make the mages turn to desperate measures.
What they should do is care for mages, treat every one of them individually, stand in only when they are needed not pester mages around all the time.

Mages on the other hand don't understand even the basic things about being a mage - that they have the keep constant control of themselves and need to resist temptation, for they have great power (yes you're guessing right) with which comes great responsibility. 
So they should keep control, resist temptation, think of innocents and understand that Templars are there when they fail. 


But considering that there is no possible compromise I looked to the situation. I realized Meredith had gone crazy and made the Templars (who were just following her orders, yes) the bad guys. Seeing as that the mages were really opressed I joined them. But untill then I was more of a Chantry-dude.

[Uccio]

Its funny how mages are supposed to be the counterbalance against qunari and yet they are treated like slaves/evil from the start. As a mage in Thedas I would not defend people who think I am a monster/evil from the birth. Instead I would make my way to Tevinter Imperium where mages are relatively free (if rebellion would not be possible).

[Sir Edric]

Ukki wrote...

Its funny how mages are supposed to be the counterbalance against qunari and yet they are treated like slaves/evil from the start. As a mage in Thedas I would not defend people who think I am a monster/evil from the birth. Instead I would make my way to Tevinter Imperium where mages are relatively free (if rebellion would not be possible).

And I would stop you before you had the chance to escape:)

[LobselVith8]

Tevinter probably wouldn't be the best choice for a mage who isn't a Magister, since you can be made a slave, Ukki. There are societies with free mages. There are free mages among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, and in the Kingdom of Rivain. The Dalish would be an option if you were an elven mage. I agree with your sentiment, though, because I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

[Uccio]

Vrex_12 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Its funny how mages are supposed to be the counterbalance against qunari and yet they are treated like slaves/evil from the start. As a mage in Thedas I would not defend people who think I am a monster/evil from the birth. Instead I would make my way to Tevinter Imperium where mages are relatively free (if rebellion would not be possible).

And I would stop you before you had the chance to escape:)

Hah, my blood magic can handle little pests .      

[InfiniteAvenger]

Pyrate_d wrote...

My thoughts are that both sides are watered down to the point that neither have a good side at all. Every mage you meet is a crazed blood mage, every templar is a fascist control freak. I think Bioware would have been better off making them both seem reasonable.

Well, honestly here, the resemblance to the Knights Templar and the Vatican Pope here is too much to ignore.  Both are driven to extreme for the same beliefs and look how that ended up.  The Knights Templar were massacred by Vatican order and only a sparse few survived in hiding.  And, look who rules the world now today.  hmmm

The similarity is too close to ignore and makes a good example of what the Templars, and Fenris, are afraid will happen.  However, Mages being locked up just because they are mages.  That is the same as slavery in the 14th-19th century as well as the holocaust.

So, there really is no good side, only the best of 2 evils and finding that one or two facts that tilt your decision in the direction your morals, or that of your character, lean.

-IA

[Sylvanpyxie]

Mages be crazy...

On a more serious note: The City of Kirkwall has an abnormally high number of Blood Mages and Abominations in it's history. Whether it's because the city has a highly oppressive society or because the ground it's on is somehow actually corrupted, i don't know.

If it's the latter then i believe that Mages *do* require some form of containment. If there are actual points in Thedas that can increase the chances of insanity or moral corruption then Mages *must* be kept away from them. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what we think, Mages *are* more dangerous than normal people, and if they end up on these "corrupted" grids then the damage they could cause could be unbelievable.

This doesn't mean outright imprisonment, obviously. But if these "Demonic Hot-zones" do exist? If there *are* corrupted lands that can cause moral corruption and loss of sanity? They need to be Mage-Free zones. Mages have limitless untapped power and if they were to end up in one of these hot-zones.. We all saw what occurred in Kirkwall.

However, if it's the former and it was really just the oppression that the Mages suffered at the hands of the Templars then i see no reason why such containment would be necessary. Obviously, Mages would still need to be "managed" in some form, there would need to be some order that hunted down Criminal Mages that used their powers to kill, maim, destroy and generally seek power through foul deeds.

In both scenarios, imprisonment is not the answer.

What i would personally do is retro-fit the Circle of Magi, turning it into a home for Families with Magical Talent, not a prison, and in addition a training school for those who are full blown Mages. Disband the Templar order and instead set up an order that investigated Crimes of a Magical Nature and punished those that were *proven* to be in the wrong.

Dangerous Mages would be stopped, Innocent Mages would be allowed freedom. - It's not a system that would work right off the bat, due to the prejudice against Mages, but everyone conforms eventually.

Just my opinion anyway. Punish the guilty, not the innocent.

P.S.: I didn't mention the Tevinter Imperium because this post would've turned into a novel if i had.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 15 août 2012 - 10:25 .

[FullmetalHeart20]

Does anyone here remember Aerith, and how upset we all were when she was killed? Odds are, that's what the average Templar would do to her. You have no idea how simple that makes things for me.
On a more practical note, the entire idea of Templars is rediculous. A group of ordinary people use the maximum potental of the human mind to fight maleficarum, when most mages could match that power. Why won't they let the magic people help? Also, magic has plenty of good stuff. How many people do you think spirit healers save in just one week? How many people could they save if they were free? Mages are people. Sure they're extremely powerful, but there are as many good mages as good mundanes, so it evens out as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par FullmetalHeart20, 16 janvier 2013 - 04:46 .