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Bioware: Statistics don't lie.


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#251
Wivvix

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Lochias WH wrote...

Statistics do lie. They are aggrigations and generalizations. In any situation, you can derive a statistic that supports your argument.

Statistics do not lie. They're just numbers. What can be misleading, misconstrued or misinterpreted, is their meaning. I have not derived statistics to support an argument in any case. I completed a playthrough of DA2 on PS3, found many aspects to be critically lacking to my mind in order for the game be worthy of anything above an 8/10, and found that to be more or less congruent with the critic reviews covering this game, by and large.

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Most of the critic reviews i've read which put this game at 85+ are generally consistent in so far as they all but ignore the flaws of the game, quickly sweeping them under the rug, and then rapidly fire out platitudes directed at the faster paced combat, the use of framed narrative, the conversation wheel, and so forth. All of these things which to my mind and many others in the community, were not appreciable improvements at any rate and arguably, in many circumstances a step backward from the combat, storytelling and conversational dialogue of Origins.

Even if you've only played the first chapter of Dragon Age 2, you'd be highly critical of these reviews, as they're clearly avoiding the elephant in the room. They don't even tackle the shortcomings of the game and attempt to give a rationale why they've chosen to all but ignore them. They just dismiss them out of hand as if they didn't exist, and steamroll ahead and award an 85+, with little to no justification of how they arrived at the score in spite of the games shortcomings.

For me the most apparent failures in DA2 have to be the level/dungeon design and reuse, and generally speaking the city of Kirkwall. I think a more articulate discussion is needed for the conversation wheel, characterisation, somewhat lacking use of the much hyped framed narrative, and the ails of combat that still seem to plague Dragon Age in spite of their best efforts to "make something awesome happen".

Whether Bioware recognises these issues or not is more or less irrelevant now, emphasis on the word now. The community raised many of these concerns up to a year ago and the final product is proof it was all but ignored. The statistics unequivocally show that on average, DA2 is a lesser game to DAO in the eyes of the broader community, so it seems Bioware is paying the price for looking inwards. The difference between an 80 and a 90 review score is really very significant if you understand the qualitative differences.

There are a lot of people who are really overselling the importance of sales figures. The first issue is that most of the poorly informed purchases have already occurred, and therefore the likelihood of people purchasing DA2 now is significantly lower than during the week of release, given that consumers know it is an 8/10 and not a 9/10 and what that entails. This trend will only continue with time. Moreover there is the issue of Dragon Age 3. The bad taste left by DA2 will linger with the franchise until Bioware can restore confidence. Dragon Age 2 may very well out-sell DAO, but you really need to look at the sales breakdown over time to gauge whether that was down to informed purchase decisions, or poorly informed purchase decisions.
We won't really be able to gauge the effects of DA2 until DA3 comes around and what that entails.

Modifié par Wivvix, 22 mars 2011 - 12:07 .


#252
moilami

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DJBare wrote...

moilami wrote...

Unplayable is unplayable and deserves a rating 0/10.

Accept that 0/10 is irrelevant and cannot be taken seriously, I too am dissapointed with the direction they took this game, but it's still worth a 7/10 in my opinion, and I'm not even a Bioware fan, but perhaps that's the reason I can judge it fairly, the devs deserve some points for effort.


I would had given maybe 5/10 if I would had been able to finish the game. But since I really can't play it there is no other choise than to give 0/10 or more correctly 1/10 because those companions in the game motivate me to keep the game on my HD.

If you can't take 0/10 seriously it is not my problem.

#253
Vollkeule

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Accept that 0/10 is irrelevant and cannot be taken seriously

why wouldn't you be able to give this score when the range is from 0-10? I find it a very logical score if you cannot finish the game because of flaws. your argument makes no sense. Remember: Games are rated for the fun they provide. If you cannot complete it because of errors that would be the opposite of fun...

#254
DTKT

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Vollkeule wrote...

Accept that 0/10 is irrelevant and cannot be taken seriously

why wouldn't you be able to give this score when the range is from 0-10? I find it a very logical score if you cannot finish the game because of flaws. your argument makes no sense. Remember: Games are rated for the fun they provide. If you cannot complete it because of errors that would be the opposite of fun...


Is DAII that broken?

I know there are issues but nothing preventing you from finishing a playthrough.

#255
scq

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These statistics are hardly noteworthy. http://www.crispim.org/?p=2775

I'm not saying that criticism is worthless, but it is to whoever buys and plays the game. They can either enjoy it, hate it, or not care too much for it. The success or failure of Bioware would be how many people end up loving it and proceed to get DA3. These statistics are not reflected in Metacritic reviews, and your insistence that a user score of 4.3 and a critical score of 82 implies that DA2 is therefore inferior has problems on so many levels.

Are the reviewers the same people? If not exactly, you have no controlled variable and thus, the scores are suspect. How big is your pool? Are they representative of everybody who has played the game? How many of the users have actually bought the game and played it through? Saying you can't play it through because it's that terrible and giving it a low score is the same as watching the introduction to a movie or reading the first two chapters of a book and storming off. In order to review something accurately, you should at least sit through it, good or bad, to give it an accurate reading.

Good try on using 'statistics' to back up your own dislike of the game. It's a perfectly valid opinion, you are certainly allowed to dislike, even hate the game, but try not to take the objective stance, because you're doing a disservice to real science.

#256
DJBare

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Vollkeule wrote...

Accept that 0/10 is irrelevant and cannot be taken seriously

why wouldn't you be able to give this score when the range is from 0-10? I find it a very logical score if you cannot finish the game because of flaws. your argument makes no sense. Remember: Games are rated for the fun they provide. If you cannot complete it because of errors that would be the opposite of fun...

With the acception of some irritating quest flaws I can finish the game.

I see this argument quite often and it mostly turns out to be a compatability issue(for pc), as for consoles I don't know.

#257
AkiKishi

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truestatic wrote...
The design choices do not make it a worse game.  The corners that appear to have been cut do.  But they do not make it a BAD game.  They certainly don't put it in the 0-4 range.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but anyone who's opinion is that the game deserves a 0 is WRONG.


You can say the exact same thing about 9 and 10's.

#258
Irx

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DTKT wrote...
Is DAII that broken?

I know there are issues but nothing preventing you from finishing a playthrough.

For some people it is broken that much, just look around the technical forum.

But it shouldn't be only technical, if you just hate the game so much and don't have any fun playing it, which prevents you from finishing it, well...

#259
Agaroth

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First of all OP, a good or bad review should NEVER influence what game/movie/music you like. Never.
The good thing about culture is that YOU decide whats a good product, not the reviewers. Reviews, however
could point you to what product you should spend your money on. But again, a review is just an educated
(in most cases) view of what the reviewer him/her self is enjoying. Its their opinion, just like you have in the first post. Yet, you present is as facts. Which its not.
So, using userscore from metacritic isnt a good way to argue that the game is bad. because you might think its bad but other thinks its great, despite low userscores. You might aswell, but it seems you put all your trust in metacritic and not in your ability to think for yourself.

For your second part, where you say you wanna bring back Dragon Age, like it was in the first:
you know, there is a toolset for DAO. So if you want the old DAO back, just make one for yourself.

Bioware has to innovate, or else the genre would die out, save for the hardcore fans. believe it or not, but
Bioware is a business. they want to make money. production costs for these titles are very high. in the
millions of dollars. They have to broaden the appeal, or else they would go bankrupt and wont be making
games at all. The gaming industry isnt like the end of the 90's anymore, where only the nerds bought games.
the new millenium really sparked gaming as a household product, but in the 90's it was not. if you want those games, just buy them from GOG.com, and play them. but there wont be comming new games for the infinity engine. Its dead. Period. Games made in that time, should stay there. They have no place in these times.(even though i love them)
the same goes for DAO.

As for the sales argument some people are using, its also false. Its way to early to say if DA 2 is a success or not.
if you look at what Mr. Michael Pachter and
his company says, he projects sales from 2.5 million units sold in the first 6 months.

source: http://www.huliq.com...ceed-45-million

Again, this is Pachters educated opinion. take it seriosly or dont. up to you.

TL;DR: using Metacritic to claim you kow the truth about the game/gamers, is not a good way to argue a point.
constructive critizism, however, is, but your post doesnt contain that.

#260
augustburnt

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Athro wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I'm WAY more inclined to believe to the vote of Gamespot users (7.2 over 2198 votes in this moment, for the PC version) as the REAL public reception of DA2.


Me too. I love DA2 - but I'm realistic about it as well. Anything around 7-8/10 matches with what the general reception is.

Heck, look at this thread here - we have someone outright promoting dishonesty in order to badmouth the game. That kind of stunt is not proof that the game is bad but proof that there are people out there actively misrepresenting the public opinion without having played the game solely in order to falsify the statistics as being lower than they actually are.

C.


The game is total crap, Ive played it. The diffrence between the people that like it and those that dont is simple. The people that dont like DA2, actually like RPGs and have standards, while those that do enjoy it are mostly hack and slash fanatics with no standards.

Modifié par augustburnt, 22 mars 2011 - 02:46 .


#261
moilami

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Agaroth wrote...


Bioware has to innovate, or else the genre would die out


Rofl stopped reading here. That happens very rarely I stop reading something. Maybe once a year.

(Your posting though made sense before that phrase.)

#262
moilami

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augustburnt wrote...

Athro wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I'm WAY more inclined to believe to the vote of Gamespot users (7.2 over 2198 votes in this moment, for the PC version) as the REAL public reception of DA2.


Me too. I love DA2 - but I'm realistic about it as well. Anything around 7-8/10 matches with what the general reception is.

Heck, look at this thread here - we have someone outright promoting dishonesty in order to badmouth the game. That kind of stunt is not proof that the game is bad but proof that there are people out there actively misrepresenting the public opinion without having played the game solely in order to falsify the statistics as being lower than they actually are.

C.


The game is total crap, Ive played it. The diffrence between the people that like it and those that dont is simple. The people that dont like DA2, actually like RPGs and have standards, while those that dont enjoy it are mostly hack and slash fanatics with no standards.


Could not had said it better.

#263
Altered Idol

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moilami wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

Athro wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I'm WAY more inclined to believe to the vote of Gamespot users (7.2 over 2198 votes in this moment, for the PC version) as the REAL public reception of DA2.


Me too. I love DA2 - but I'm realistic about it as well. Anything around 7-8/10 matches with what the general reception is.

Heck, look at this thread here - we have someone outright promoting dishonesty in order to badmouth the game. That kind of stunt is not proof that the game is bad but proof that there are people out there actively misrepresenting the public opinion without having played the game solely in order to falsify the statistics as being lower than they actually are.

C.


The game is total crap, Ive played it. The diffrence between the people that like it and those that dont is simple. The people that dont like DA2, actually like RPGs and have standards, while those that dont enjoy it are mostly hack and slash fanatics with no standards.


Could not had said it better.


Wrong.

I love RPG's and have played them since Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights and god knows how many more. Dont try to generalise and stereotype people. I like Dragon Age 2 as much as I do Origins but for different reasons. Is it without its faults? Of course not but neither was Origins or any game that has gone before.

#264
moilami

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Altered Idol wrote...

moilami wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

Athro wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I'm WAY more inclined to believe to the vote of Gamespot users (7.2 over 2198 votes in this moment, for the PC version) as the REAL public reception of DA2.


Me too. I love DA2 - but I'm realistic about it as well. Anything around 7-8/10 matches with what the general reception is.

Heck, look at this thread here - we have someone outright promoting dishonesty in order to badmouth the game. That kind of stunt is not proof that the game is bad but proof that there are people out there actively misrepresenting the public opinion without having played the game solely in order to falsify the statistics as being lower than they actually are.

C.


The game is total crap, Ive played it. The diffrence between the people that like it and those that dont is simple. The people that dont like DA2, actually like RPGs and have standards, while those that dont enjoy it are mostly hack and slash fanatics with no standards.


Could not had said it better.


Wrong.

I love RPG's and have played them since Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights and god knows how many more. Dont try to generalise and stereotype people. I like Dragon Age 2 as much as I do Origins but for different reasons. Is it without its faults? Of course not but neither was Origins or any game that has gone before.


Then you just don't have standards.

And generalisations are big business.


Edit: So just get inline with the rest. There is a category for you and people waiting for you :happy:

Modifié par moilami, 22 mars 2011 - 02:50 .


#265
Altered Idol

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moilami wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...

moilami wrote...

augustburnt wrote...

Athro wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I'm WAY more inclined to believe to the vote of Gamespot users (7.2 over 2198 votes in this moment, for the PC version) as the REAL public reception of DA2.


Me too. I love DA2 - but I'm realistic about it as well. Anything around 7-8/10 matches with what the general reception is.

Heck, look at this thread here - we have someone outright promoting dishonesty in order to badmouth the game. That kind of stunt is not proof that the game is bad but proof that there are people out there actively misrepresenting the public opinion without having played the game solely in order to falsify the statistics as being lower than they actually are.

C.


The game is total crap, Ive played it. The diffrence between the people that like it and those that dont is simple. The people that dont like DA2, actually like RPGs and have standards, while those that dont enjoy it are mostly hack and slash fanatics with no standards.


Could not had said it better.


Wrong.

I love RPG's and have played them since Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights and god knows how many more. Dont try to generalise and stereotype people. I like Dragon Age 2 as much as I do Origins but for different reasons. Is it without its faults? Of course not but neither was Origins or any game that has gone before.


Then you just don't have standards.

And generalisations are big business.


You don't even know me so that fact that you think you can judge my tastes removes any validity from your statement.

Generalisations are nonsense. They are useful only to those who wish to throw a blanket description over a group of people they don't want to or care to understand.  It like saying everyone from American is fat or everyone in the UK had bad teeth. Complete and utter nonsense.

Edit: But please, continue trolling. I'll just ignore it from now on.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 22 mars 2011 - 02:54 .


#266
Obro

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I blame the reviewers.They are deceiving us with numbers.

Before it was
1-****sux
2-bad
3-mediocre
4-5 average
6-good
7-7.4really good
7.5-great
8-amazing
9-9.5-outstanding
10-incredible

and now it's

1-7,8 -****sux
8-average
9-9.5 -good
above is cramped up great,amazing,outstanding,incredible

They are just putting pretty numbers in front of you.

And more than anything..it is a bad thing to use numbers to grade a game.

#267
supertouch

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genres share conventions and successful games rely on formulas. a series can be renewed through the introduction of unfamiliar characters, new settings, focused stories, graphical updates, and maybe some tweaks here and there. positive changes aren't implemented by removing the bedrock elements of a genre. "change" is not synonymous with "improvement."

at any rate, dragon age 2 is mediocre at best. if you think otherwise, you need to play more games. 

Modifié par supertouch, 22 mars 2011 - 03:01 .


#268
Altered Idol

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supertouch wrote...

genres share conventions and successful games rely on formulas. a series can be renewed through the introduction of unfamiliar characters, new settings, focused stories, graphical updates, and maybe some tweaks here and there. positive changes aren't implemented by removing the bedrock elements of a genre. "change" is not synonymous with "improvement."

at any rate, dragon age 2 is mediocre at best. if you think otherwise, you need to play more games. 



I agree with the point that change is not synonymous with improvement but neither is it synonymous with decline. Change means different, it doesnt has positive or negative connotations that aren't put on it from an exterior source.

From a personal standpoint, I wanted something that wasnt an Origins clone with a new skin. I wanted a different type of story which retained the best elements of the firs game. I think we got that to an extent but certainly not to what it could have been with a bit more care.

I don't agree that if you like DA2, then you are somehow wrong. Its all a matter of opinion. I don't think its a perfect game by any means and could have done with an extra six months in development, but neither do I think its mediocre or poor. Its a good game that improves on the original in some areas but lets itself down in others.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 22 mars 2011 - 03:11 .


#269
NewYears1978

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I agree with TC. DA2 is a joke of a game compared to DAO. It may have it's moments and pros..but overall...meh.

#270
Ziggeh

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Blarg. That's not statistics. That's just numbers.

#271
nacho66

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Like I said on the other threat, DA2 scores 4/10 on my scale as a sequel to Origins and 7/10 if treated as a standalone game.

Obviously DA2 has more controversy and more differences in opinions than DAO had... and this is what Bioware should look at before deciding on what DA3 should be (or perhaps they've already decided?)

#272
Agaroth

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moilami wrote...

Agaroth wrote...


Bioware has to innovate, or else the genre would die out


Rofl stopped reading here. That happens very rarely I stop reading something. Maybe once a year.

(Your posting though made sense before that phrase.)


a shame you did, because if you'd read on, you would understand why i said it. to innovate, just to innovate is wrong, but thats not what i said.

#273
Daradain

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This is kinda perplexing. If any other game (like Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed etc.) had copy/pasted level designs and encounters with little to no variation, it would get a failing grade on those merits alone. If every monster & map in Legend of Zelda was pretty much a rehash of the last set, people would hate it. If anything, it was given a rather good score based on the story, which the community tends to hate. This game was fun, but the sheer amount of "little things" that bug you as the player tend to dominate the overall feeling of the game.

#274
suprhomre

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Catt128 wrote...

I actually enjoyed Dragon Age 2 more than Origins. :/ The story might be shorter but is much more intense and touching.

It feels a bit rushed and that might hurt dialogue/story but in no way it's a bad game. Besides, if you like Origins so much... well, go play Origins? I personally can't replay Origins more than 2-3 times.

This remidns me of Mass Effect "elevators: yes/no?".



I agree

Modifié par suprhomre, 22 mars 2011 - 04:20 .


#275
Selvec_Darkon

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Hubris is the number one fall of mankind. Don't get so wrapped up in past success that you can't see the present failures.