301 réponses à ce sujet

[RancidStick]

I like how people bash MetaCritic statistics. Mass Effect 2 had mostly the same changes and with lots of hate but you still didn't see 83 professional review and 4.2 user reviews. Yeah DA2 had a lot more reviews in 2 weeks than other games have in their lifetime but more people were following DA2 because of Origins, Bioware name, 1 year of hype and the 2 recent weeks of marketing they pulled before release.

Either you can believe that lots of people are out to get bioware for some reason, because us pc gamers really want bioware to fail so we're stuck with buggy elder scrolls and 1 rpg from a random European company once in a blue moon or you can accept the opinion that Bioware dropped the ball on DA2. Stop saying DA2 is a masterpiece unless you want DA3 to be designed with the intent of rivaling DA2 and not DA:O.

[Wivvix]

[quote]ERJAK2 wrote...

Diverse dungeons I'll give you, everything
else is close or better now. The dialogue is FAR superior in terms of
the protaganist. The tone system is one of the most inovative features
i've seen in any game in the past few years and PRAY they bring it to
ME3. The characters are well developed and very well presented. More
party conversations could have been nice but it's pretty dam great
anyway. they cut down on party itemization by what? Head shoulders
gloves boots? it was an unessecesary change sure but it was far from a
bad one and this way your characters don't look retarded.

Go cry in your emo hole.
[/quote]
I wholly disagree on dialogue. Dialogue was very protagonist centric, which by no means is necessarily a good thing. The tone system is akin to having responses colour-coded for emotions or intended meaning. It promotes a lazy, fisher and paykel interpretation of dialogue that was born out of a developer's desire to have players choose from a set of rigid moral consequences, which then feed into the flaky, ill-conceived character development. Yes, i'm talking about "friends" and "rivals", an abominable spin on morality if ever one did exist.

Not even going to broach the issue of characterisation. Suffice to say most characters lacked the quality of Alistair, Sten, Shale or Morrigan. Party itemisation was a significant issue. It prevents you from gearing your party to exploit particular mechanics, which after all is the point of gear and talents in an RPG. The characters never looked retarded, the gear art in DAO just wasn't aesthetically pleasing enough for people who wanted to look like, well, Hawke does in DA2.

[quote]Balthamoss wrote...

Why did you choose
only Metacritic and ignore all the rest, what makes Metacritic more
important than other sites? As such you're not showing the big picture,
but a tiny crop. I find it strange that the user scores there are so
much lower than on other big gaming sites, and that DA II has more than
three times as many user ratings a week after launch than Origins has
after 2 years...

[/quote]
I didn't ignore all the rest at all. I used Metacritic as the source because it is has been around for a long time, and generally provides a reasonable indication of how the game has performed. In this case the Metacritic score was 83 and reflected closely enough what most critics reviews were saying. Thus rather than quote 5-10 chosen review sites, in stead I defaulted to the Metacritic average. I haven't cherry picked reviews. If Metacritic has, then we will discuss that.

I too find it strange that the user scores are so much lower, but as with any user scores, you take it with a big pinch of salt, hence why I stated that my inference was not drawn from user scores.

[quote]TwistedComplex wrote...

>Metacritic

Yeah, no

MEANWHILE ON OTHER REVIEW SITES

G4 user rating: 3.9/5

Gamefly user rating: 8/10

Gamestop: 8.4/10

[/quote]
Meanwhile 4/5, 8/10, 8.4/10 is more or less congruent with Metacritics 83/100.....

[quote]Amioran wrote...

Lisen, boy, if you
are going to quote reviews as facts at last do so in context with what
they are writing instead of what YOU want they are writing. Since all you say below is COMPLETELY the contrary of what most reviewers wrote, mainly:[/quote]
I was wondering when you'd turn up. Every thread needs a patronising keyboard warrior with an abysmal command of the English language. Thank god you're here!
Nowhere in any of my posts did I claim to be stating fact. Clearly your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking also. Not to worry, that seems to be fairly systemic on this forum.

[quote]Amioran wrote...
"Bring back fully scripted dialogue."

Most of the critics reviews agree that the "voiced dialogue" is a step forward.[/quote]
I'm not talking about voiced dialogue. I'm talking about full sentence, proper in-game dialogue; not a dialogue wheel such as cannibalised from ME.

[quote]Amioran wrote...
"Bring back mature, developed, adult personalities."

Most of the critics reviews says that characters and storytelling is well done, some say either much better than DAO.[/quote]
While not shy of disagreeing with those critics, i'll directly quote a few reviews for you below.
[quote]Moreover,
no party member has as forceful or as memorable of a personality as
Alistair, Morrigan, or Sten from the original game, which may again be a
conscious decision by the writers to make the story more human and
complex. The unfortunate outcome, though, is that the payoff doesn't
match the potential, and Dragon Age II feels flatter by comparison.
http://www.gamerevol...pc/dragon-age-2
[/quote]
[quote]Dragon Age II features uninteresting choices that don't matter
from start to finish, and the potential in the framework setup is lost
an hour into the game.
http://www.rpgamer.c...age2strev1.html
[/quote]
[quote]I thought the narrative style was to allow for branching storylines, but
aside from a few impactful choices, it's actually fairly linear, which
is disappointing.
http://au.pc.ign.com.../1154261p1.html[/quote]

[quote]Amioran wrote...
"Bring back party itemisation."

Here the verdict is divided. There are those that think it a step-up and those who think it a step-down.[/quote]
Which is frankly astonishing. Removing party itemisation is to effectively remove a core component of party-based roleplaying. It can't conceivably be a step up, unless you actually wanted an action game and got pseudo-rpg-action mush. I wouldn't put it past Silverman.

[quote]Amioran wrote...
"Bring back Dragon Age. "

It IS Dragon Age and many critics reviews said it feels much the same as DAO. [/quote]
You mean like the few following examples? Yeah, didn't think so.
http://www.videogame.../dragon-age-ii/
http://ps3.incgamers...n-age-ii-review
http://www.gameinfor...the-middle.aspx
http://www.rpgamer.c...age2strev1.html

[quote]Amioran wrote...
As always good work on trying to prove some points with a parvence that's not supported by the supposed facts you bring about. You have tried demonstrating that critics reviews don't like what you don't like and failed miserably. Next time before providing evidences you should read them to avoid making a s**tty figure as you have done. Bravo![/quote]
Parvence? Why are you creating words? Once again i'll reiterate, i'm not stating "facts". Moreover, had you read the critic reviews to which I referred, you'd be aware that the views I put forward are mostly to be found in critic reviews. I'm not feeling very generous, so you can eat your humble pie cold.

[quote]JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
you listed the user scores from metacritic as 'evidence' that people think Dragon Age 2 is 'considerably worse' and that 'statistics do not lie'... or made it seem like that in your post. What do you want people to understand? Hmm?[/quote]
I'd ask you to read the post again and consider all angles of interpretation. You might walk away with the correct meaning this time. As I have already qualified, the user scores from metacritic were included more as unsubstantive, anecdotal testimony of people's reaction to DA2.

[quote]JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
At the very least, why list user scores on metacritic at all if you do not believe them to be reliable? why put them forth and make it seem like they are in agreement with what you are about to say?
[/quote]
I included them because they have as much merit in a public forum as any other consumer opinion, and because they are roughly congruent with the thrust of my position, and I do emphasize roughly.

Modifié par Wivvix, 18 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[Otterwarden]

RancidStick wrote...

I like how people bash MetaCritic statistics. Mass Effect 2 had mostly the same changes and with lots of hate but you still didn't see 83 professional review and 4.2 user reviews. Yeah DA2 had a lot more reviews in 2 weeks than other games have in their lifetime but more people were following DA2 because of Origins, Bioware name, 1 year of hype and the 2 recent weeks of marketing they pulled before release.

Either you can believe that lots of people are out to get bioware for some reason, because us pc gamers really want bioware to fail so we're stuck with buggy elder scrolls and 1 rpg from a random European company once in a blue moon or you can accept the opinion that Bioware dropped the ball on DA2. Stop saying DA2 is a masterpiece unless you want DA3 to be designed with the intent of rivaling DA2 and not DA:O.

Agree.  Negative feedback from the fans should not be seen as some campaign to "get Bioware".  That they have bothered to respond so vocally I take away as a positive sign, but then as a marketeer I know only too well that the worse scenario is when you have no idea why you are loosing long time customers.  If we don't want to be left with fewer offerings (the two you mentioned) we need to help them find the right balance of RPG simplicity/complexity.  And, if Bioware/EA refuses to listen, then hopefully another small production crew will surprise us like our Polish friends did.  The money is clearly there for any group who takes the time to deliver the right product.

[gogatm]

i hope they dont go back. if youre not growing, youre dying. at the end of the day it all about the power of the dollar. if this game doesnt sell well, thatll be the answer to the questions.

[Otterwarden]

Also, we debated the Gamestop higher user scores in this thread (pages 4/5). Don't know the validity of the arguments put forth, but it did offer a possible reason for the discrepancy.

http://social.biowar...89811/6#6626442

[Galad22]

gogatm wrote...

i hope they dont go back. if youre not growing, youre dying. at the end of the day it all about the power of the dollar. if this game doesnt sell well, thatll be the answer to the questions.

There would be perfectly reasonable reasons why this game might not sell well.

See metacritic.

[lionsfan208]

Hibernating wrote...

sigh, stop hating on the game man. I found it still to be one of the better I have ever played, and the whole final hour of the game gave me a rush that I havent felt from a game since the collectors base.

This is exactly how I feel.  I loved the whole experiance and the climax was great. 

[log1x_dr4g0n]

To be honest, I liked it better than Origins - Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. The thing I really liked was that BioWare decided to show us another story within the DA universe. It's a big universe, and has so much potential for different games to add to the series.

About the dungeons...there was a lot of copy and pasted dungeons in Origins if I recall correctly, so I don't see what the big deal is. Other games have the same thing half the time. You can only do so much when you're on a timetable; let alone how many people are working on a game. It's kinda annoying, yes, but doing that cuts the time to develop more important parts of a game. If you want variety, and if you have a PC, make some mods.

BioWare can take what made both games great in their own ways, and use them for the next game. All games aren't perfect. Origins certainly wasn't, nor is DA2, but I had fun with both...it's just that I prefer DA2 right now...which, I'm sure it'll change once some new rpg game is released.

[Aesieru]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

But gee, considering how much everyone seems to say any scores in the 80s suck per the other thread about DA2 getting an 83 on metacritic, I guess this means that DA:O sucked based on the console scores (86 and 87), coupled with the user ratings that ranged from 7.5-8.3.

In case you don't get it, I just said that to provide an example of the kind of specious logic that people use in claiming DA2 that sucks. I'll believe the metacritic user ratings if they can actually clean out all the fake reviews that might be skewing results. Otherwise, this is largely yawn-worthy to me.

90 on PC, was all that matters to people.

[Sen4lifE]

A) One review site doesn't speak for everyone who has played the game
A considerably small minority of players actually review games.
C) Most people who like the game are too busy playing to go surf reviews.

This only makes user reviews so effective. On the flip side, critic reviews are only so effective.

From this site, with user and critic reviews, it has an average score of 60. However take into account that the average critic review is 81.7 and the average user review is 40.7. Honestly, the large difference there is, I believe, because of all the people that dislike this game yet for some reason won't just go play another and instead attack it with bad reviews constantly. I get it that critics and users don't usually agree.. but really.. a 41 point difference?

Me and my friends all love this gave, and there are plenty that do, just as there are plenty that don't. I'm sure there are some people who give it a bad review with actual criticism to present, but there are just as many who do it in rage or really, for attention.

For example, the 4chan attack.

That's just my view on this.

[tez19]

*Yawn*
Can we swap lives OP, yours seems AWESOME.

[Night Prowler76]

The best part is, the people who are discounting the Metacritic scores for DA2, are the same ones that always post it as gospel when they compare The Witcher against Origins, very convienient.

[Night Prowler76]

Sen4lifE wrote...

A) One review site doesn't speak for everyone who has played the game
A considerably small minority of players actually review games.
C) Most people who like the game are too busy playing to go surf reviews.

This only makes user reviews so effective. On the flip side, critic reviews are only so effective.

From this site, with user and critic reviews, it has an average score of 60. However take into account that the average critic review is 81.7 and the average user review is 40.7. Honestly, the large difference there is, I believe, because of all the people that dislike this game yet for some reason won't just go play another and instead attack it with bad reviews constantly. I get it that critics and users don't usually agree.. but really.. a 41 point difference?

Me and my friends all love this gave, and there are plenty that do, just as there are plenty that don't. I'm sure there are some people who give it a bad review with actual criticism to present, but there are just as many who do it in rage or really, for attention.

For example, the 4chan attack.

That's just my view on this.

Player scores are usually lower than critic scores in any game, alot of people who like games will give them good scores on sites, its not just negative reviews, Bioware employees gave it 10/10, there is sandbagging on both sides and it evens out, give me a break.

most of my friends think the game is very shallow, it doesnt matter what our friends think, it boils down to sales for Bioware.

Modifié par Night Prowler76, 18 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Night Prowler76]

dp

Modifié par Night Prowler76, 18 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[Otterwarden]

Spuudle wrote...

I also agree that any group that does take the time to produce the right RPG product would be financially very successful, as people are desperate (maybe not the best adjective) for their needs to be met.

As with much in life, the problem comes down to an interpretation of what "financially successful" means.  The DA:O model was clearly successful for Bioware, but they want more.  To get more they feel they have to entice other market segments like the CoD crowd, thereby catering to their gamestyle and removing the hurdles in this genre.  This "lowest common denominator" strategy has been the holy grail of many developers it seems, and who can blame them for being envious of WoW's success.  The classic RPG market tops out around DA:O sales I expect, but that is plenty big for everyone to make good money.

Don't believe that they are not listening, just worry that it isn't aligned with their financial goals.

[RevilFox]

I would have given DA:O a 7, and I'd give DA2 a 9. 100% of people I personally know to have reviewed this game like it better than Origins.

[Jashi Oda]

I think it's funny though how OXM and OPM are quoted with the highest scores in the advertising. Don't they typically give inflated scores? I think the Game Infomer score is the most accurate I've seen at 8.25.

[Tirigon]

Otterwarden wrote...
The fact is Bioware is trying to expand the market for their game, and they are running into the challenge that there is a high barrier of entry in real RPG designed games because of the enormous time/mental effort a newbie player has to put into figuring out how to make things work correctly.  There are a multitude of decisions that must be handled well to effectively build a good character/team and a casual player gets frustrated. 

Have to disagree with this - I AM new to RPG (in fact DAO was the first real one, i don´t think Oblivion and Morrowind count since they´re very different) and DAO made a great entry point.

Now, you´re right that it´s hard to get into - in fact I trashed a character when I was in 30 hours or so because it sucked like sh!t (in retrospect, i think I deserve a medal - now I find it impossible to build a dual wield rogue with whom you´re challenged on casual difficulty:innocent:)
BUT!!!!!
and that´s a major difference to DA2 - I could tell that the game would be awesome if I figure out how to build a good character, restarted from scratch and played through with mage 2 times, then DW rogue once and then some more times with mods active, all but the first playthrough on Nightmare because I actually enjoyed the combat even though it´s imo the game´s weakest part.
In DA2 however, this feeling is simply not there. in fact, I still haven´t played Act 3 because I simply can´t bring myself to click the f*cking launcher.
That´s something only 1 other game has ever managed. BioShock, and I count that as the greatest waste of money in my entire life even though I got it for 10€.

That´s how bad it is. I´d rather write on the forums than play the game.
Ok, the same came with DAO eventually - but there it was after 2 full and 1 half playthrough because I enjoyed to discuss the awesome story with other fans. This time it´s because I don´t know what to do until university starts again.....

[Thy Bleed]

Well they got some things right and some things wrong. No sense to keep slamming them about it. next game they live and learn and make a cohesive experience from the past 2 games.

[Tirigon]

Thy Bleed wrote...


Well they got some things right and some things wrong. No sense to keep slamming them about it. next game they live and learn and make a cohesive experience from the past 2 games.

If only I had your happy-sunshine-rainbows-and-unicorns look on things.....

[dolphin7343b]

It would be nice to just play it, I thought I was ahead of the game by pre ordering the signature edition and it won't even log in, and support has been worthless, one response in a week.

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: DragonAge2.exe
Application Version: 1.1.5184.0
Application Timestamp: 4d7983ec
Fault Module Name: nvwgf2um.dll
Fault Module Version: 8.17.11.9621
Fault Module Timestamp: 4b4c0d8b
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00315e59
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 0a9e
Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
Additional Information 3: 0a9e
Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

[Otterwarden]

Tirigon wrote...

Otterwarden wrote...
The fact is Bioware is trying to expand the market for their game, and they are running into the challenge that there is a high barrier of entry in real RPG designed games because of the enormous time/mental effort a newbie player has to put into figuring out how to make things work correctly.  There are a multitude of decisions that must be handled well to effectively build a good character/team and a casual player gets frustrated. 

Have to disagree with this - I AM new to RPG (in fact DAO was the first real one, i don´t think Oblivion and Morrowind count since they´re very different) and DAO made a great entry point.

Now, you´re right that it´s hard to get into - in fact I trashed a character when I was in 30 hours or so because it sucked like sh!t (in retrospect, i think I deserve a medal - now I find it impossible to build a dual wield rogue with whom you´re challenged on casual difficulty:innocent:)
BUT!!!!!
and that´s a major difference to DA2 - I could tell that the game would be awesome if I figure out how to build a good character, restarted from scratch and played through with mage 2 times, then DW rogue once and then some more times with mods active, all but the first playthrough on Nightmare because I actually enjoyed the combat even though it´s imo the game´s weakest part.
In DA2 however, this feeling is simply not there. in fact, I still haven´t played Act 3 because I simply can´t bring myself to click the f*cking launcher.
That´s something only 1 other game has ever managed. BioShock, and I count that as the greatest waste of money in my entire life even though I got it for 10€.

That´s how bad it is. I´d rather write on the forums than play the game.
Ok, the same came with DAO eventually - but there it was after 2 full and 1 half playthrough because I enjoyed to discuss the awesome story with other fans. This time it´s because I don´t know what to do until university starts again.....

That's interesting, and I expect true for anyone who was motivated.  I will say though that DA:O already seemed simplified to me (though this is hard to judge with all the knowledge I brought to the table).  In Baldur's Gate the stats were pretty overwhelming for a neophyte, and the tables in the BG tome were enough to turn off most of my friends.  Plus, there were consequences to messing up your build.  I noticed that now with Awakenings, as well as in ME2, they have basically eliminated that "start from scratch" penalty you are talking about.  Now you read a book/click a console and "proof" you get to redo your character.  In my case this sadly led to laziness.  After all, what did I need to care how I shaped my character if I could just change it so easily?

Anyway, I'm not saying that the DA:O was uber challenging.  All I was pointing out was that their focus groups have obviously led them to conclude that they will only be able to expand the market if they simplify it even further.  After all, I doubt seriously the CoD crowd wants to take the time to learn the traditional traits/skills of the classes.  For all the six class offerings they gave a player access to in ME2, it seems that by far and away soldier was the the one chosen.  Sigh, how bloody boring.

[Otterwarden]

BTW, they were the ones who mentioned this hurdle. This quote came from an interview that was posted here (sorry don't have the link):

Gaider: The main thing to learn from "Dragon Age," it's a sort of lesson
in RPGs in general. To the hardcore RPG fan, they would shriek in
horror, but there are a lot of aspects for RPGs that make it a real
hurdle. You hit people with a lot of stats. For somebody who's already
played RPGs, it's a given. You don't worry about the barrier to entry.

Modifié par Otterwarden, 19 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Veex]

RancidStick wrote...

Yeah DA2 had a lot more reviews in 2 weeks than other games have in their lifetime but more people were following DA2 because of Origins, Bioware name, 1 year of hype and the 2 recent weeks of marketing they pulled before release.

The fact this isn't throwing up huge red flags for you and you're thinking it has anything to do with BioWare's fanbase, which is infantessimaly small in comparison to Blizzard's or Infinity Ward's, is making my head hurt. Metacritic was literally removing reviews because people were making duplicate accounts and spamming it.

With that said, even if Dragon Age 2 sells only a million copies, Metacritic's user reviewers would account for less than 1% of the playerbase. That would be like me walking into BYU and polling them on the virtues of monogamous relationships.