301 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

@ Otterwarden: What annoys me the most is that BioWare is trying to compromise between action game / hack´n´slash and RPG.

That´s what, imo, sucks.

If they want to cater to action fans, JUST MAKE AN ACTION GAME WITH STORY.
That would be fine by me, considering that I enjoy hack´n´slash combat (when done well) and shooters as much, if not even more, than DAO combat. What sucks about games like CoD imo is the non-existant story, gameplaywise i think it´s as good as Mass Effect and more dependent on your skill, which is imo a good thing.

Also, I have always thought that leveling is kinda unrealistic and, as you storywise start as a superman, a bit retarded. Could well be removed for all I care.

But those DAMN COMPROMISES suck.

Either make it an RPG, or make it an action game with story. but not this "skills matter as little as in an action game, reflexes and stuff matter as little as in an RPG" approach they have in DA2, which essentially means that
1) you are challenged in neither way, making the combat boring and annoying and
2) BOTH RPG fans AND action fans will not get what they want.

Compromises are important in politics and partnerships and whatever, but in games they just ruin it. Either do the one or the other, not some kind of wannabe hybrid.



Thing is, if I buy an RPG I want to GET an RPG. If I feel like playing an action game I´ll play one that is marketed as one and meant to be one.
If, on the other hand, I DON´T want an RPG, then why try to make me buy the game by ruin it for the RPG fans instead of accepting that I buy another game....

Modifié par Tirigon, 19 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Otterwarden]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Otterwarden: What annoys me the most is that BioWare is trying to compromise between action game / hack´n´slash and RPG.

Agree fully with what you say.  With no exceptions, my favorite part of playing an RPG is the first third of the game where I am struggling to stay alive.  By the time I am uber-godlike I am just going through the paces.  It's still fun, but there isn't that rush.  One of my favorite RPG experiences was Gothic II.  Had less to do with the game than it did that I wanted to build a mage and was hording my points to allocate them to my spell skills.  As it turned out though you can't become a mage for a while story wise, so I was so weak even the flies could kill me.  Seeing my character run from flies was pretty funny, and the challenge of surviving on my RPG wits alone was great fun.  

There is a market for the ME2 model (and I'm a buyer); but, like you,  I don't want them to take away the genre I love. 

[Otterwarden]

I did notice that on Amazon.com there is a marked difference in the user ratings between the PS3 and the PC players. Really shocking considering it is an RPG we are talking about. Total inverse of what you would traditionally expect.

[TygerOfPanTang]

So I'm in my local GameStop today and I walked over to the "Pre-owned" 360 shelves. Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

PS3 "Pre-Owned" shelves? Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

So then I'm standing in front of the DA:2 display and wondering "Should I?" when the owner walks over to BS and try to get me to preorder something. I never do but he always tries.

Seeing as we're both old D&D geeks we talk about the campaign we're currently in for a bit and then I ask him "How many copies of DA:2 have you sold?"

"Around 40 the first day and a couple every day since."

"Huh. How many people brought the game back or traded it in? I don't see any used copies on the shelves."

"None so far."

"Huh. No one came in and complained about it?"

"No. Why is it buggy?"

"Huh. When you get a chance jump on the Bioware forums and check out the DA:2 section."


That's statistics for you.

[Wivvix]

TygerOfPanTang wrote...

So I'm in my local GameStop today and I walked over to the "Pre-owned" 360 shelves. Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

PS3 "Pre-Owned" shelves? Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

So then I'm standing in front of the DA:2 display and wondering "Should I?" when the owner walks over to BS and try to get me to preorder something. I never do but he always tries.

Seeing as we're both old D&D geeks we talk about the campaign we're currently in for a bit and then I ask him "How many copies of DA:2 have you sold?"

"Around 40 the first day and a couple every day since."

"Huh. How many people brought the game back or traded it in? I don't see any used copies on the shelves."

"None so far."

"Huh. No one came in and complained about it?"

"No. Why is it buggy?"

"Huh. When you get a chance jump on the Bioware forums and check out the DA:2 section."


That's statistics for you.

At best that's a weak recount of rough anecdotal testimony from a single retail employee at a single retail outlet. Moreover it is completely irrelevant. Whether a consumer buys a game and keeps it, or buys a game and trades it in within any timeframe, is irrelevant to how a game is received/reviewed.
You buy the game, play the game, review the game, then decide what to do with it. Most people are still in the buy/play/review stage, and what they do with their copy thereafter is utterly irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

Modifié par Wivvix, 19 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[Zeroth]

One word. Unfinishable. This was like watching a long bad direct-to-video fantasy. Wow. I'm really shocked at how bad the storytelling was here. Just so unlike Bioware to utterly fail at the story. Possibly it was the production timeline? I can excuse the repetitive maps, the hack-and-slash, the idiotic AI, the auto-spawn enemies that always seem to materialize out of closed spaces, even the giant spiders who web down from a clear blue sky. Over-powered rouges and buggy system that clearly handicaps damage when there are more enemies than less, no problem.   I can even excuse the locked companion armor, nameless equipment and the disjointed, often-times mindless quests, but never, ever have I bought a Bioware game and was so frustrated where I just preferred not to finish. I'm a hardcore RPG fan and not only is this worse than Dragon Age Origins, it's more like some strange alternate world spin-off. It doesn't even feel like Dragonage. I got to the final part of the end of the final act and was so disgusted with the story, I turned my Xbox off. It's been a long, long time since I've done that.

Look for copies to show up on the pre-owned shelves soon. Remember it's a very LONG game and Bioware earned credibility with DA:O that despite bad experiences people are still trying to give it a chance. I think some are coming to the conclusion that I've arrived at.  I'm done. Not even a DLC can save this .......... abomination. LOL.

Modifié par Zeroth, 19 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[TygerOfPanTang]

Wivvix wrote...

At best that's a weak recount of rough anecdotal testimony from a single retail employee at a single retail outlet. Moreover it is completely irrelevant. Whether a consumer buys a game and keeps it, or buys a game and trades it in within any timeframe, is irrelevant to how a game is received/reviewed.
You buy the game, play the game, review the game, then decide what to do with it. Most people are still in the buy/play/review stage, and what they do with their copy thereafter is utterly irrelevant to the subject of this thread.

It usually doesn't take more than 2-4 days before
games start getting traded in or people try to return a game for a refund  just
because "It sucks." Yes even some AAA titles.

"Weak recount" ?


Hardly. There is nothing wrong with my memory sir and what I relayed is
relevant  as, if so many people hated the game and if it were, in fact, so
horrible I would imagine that at least a couple would have traded their copy in
or attempted a return.

Nice try to discredit my post though.  I suppose you made the effort because it doesn't line up with your opinion.

Rereading my post I did notice one error. I'm not
sure if the guy I know actually owns the store he just manages it.
I'm not
sure on that as I've never bothered to ask him.

[Mahrdol]

The only score that matters at the end of the day is the amount of profit the games makes. If this game sells 1/2 as many copies as DA:O but costs 1/7 to make it could be a home run for EA. Only time will tell if DA2 was a fail video game or not compared to DA:O.

Modifié par Mahrdol, 19 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Clonedzero]

metacritic user reviews are being spammed with troll reviews from outraged nerds over minor things. cry more.

and DA2 isn't the only game that happened with, it happens with every major sequel these days. lol. metacritic user reviews are worthless and should never be referenced like ever.

[CitizenSnips]

DA2 isn't the greatest game ever. It's also not a 4/10. 4chan babies flooded those user sections with reviews made out of their own tears. Since you referenced Metacritic user review scores and passed those off as reliable statistics I'm going to assume you are an idiot.

[Wivvix]

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
It usually doesn't take more than 2-4 days before
games start getting traded in or people try to return a game for a refund  just
because "It sucks." Yes even some AAA titles.

When a game has playthrough's of 30 up to 50 hours, the game would have to be utterly atrocious for someone to return it within 2-4 days. Most people can't commit 10 hours a day to playing the game, so many people haven't yet finished a single playthrough. There are relatively few people expressing the view that it falls into the category of "so bad it wasn't worth finishing". I'm not one of them.

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
"Weak recount" ?

Hardly. There is nothing wrong with my memory sir and what I relayed is
relevant  as, if so many people hated the game and if it were, in fact, so
horrible I would imagine that at least a couple would have traded their copy in
or attempted a return.

I wasn't questioning your memory. You're recounting a discussion between you and an employee that basically entailed anecdotal evidence. That's the part that is weak.

It's anecdotal evidence, and the contents sounded like guesstimations about copies sold, not hard sales figures either. Moreover, the number of used copies traded in at ONE retail outlet is utterly irrelevant. Averages are what are being discussed here. Nobody ever asserted the game was so bad people would be trading their copies in already. You're clutching at straws.

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
Nice try to discredit my post though.  I suppose you made the effort because it doesn't line up with your opinion.

There was nothing to discredit. What you posted lacks any statistical substance. I made the effort to point it out, because you made the effort to recount the entire, long-winded testimony without having it occur to you that it was anecdotal and therefore irrelevant to this discussion.

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
Rereading my post I did notice one error. I'm not
sure if the guy I know actually owns the store he just manages it. I'm not sure on that as I've never bothered to ask him.

It's really irrelevant. One store in isolation is meaningless in gauging the views of a broad audience. That's why my inferences are drawn from the metacritic score, which is an average of 20+ published critic reviews. If you had actual sales numbers and copies traded back in over a period of say 4 weeks, from a nation-wide franchise, then you'd be able to apply some statistical analysis and draw inferences.

Mushoops86anjyl logged in.
A wild Bioware forum appeared.
Wild Bioware forum cast *Reading Comprehension Curse*
Mushoops86anjyl was afflicted and received -100 Reading Comprehension.

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

DA2 isn't the greatest game ever.
It's also not a 4/10. 4chan babies flooded those user sections with
reviews made out of their own tears. Since you referenced Metacritic
user review scores and passed those off as reliable statistics I'm going
to assume you are an idiot.

Modifié par Wivvix, 19 mars 2011 - 08:00 .

[Dajiaocookie]

Regardless of the defenders or the detractors of DA2, i was laughing my ass off as i watched my buddy who was a great supporter of DA2 (first day buyer by the way) who rushed to get a copy started griping to me in dismay how much he wasted his money of what and I quote "****tiest game he's ever played"

I mean, he's trying really hard to find something to like, but as he gets into the Kirkwall quests his griping about how some of the quests made no sense or how lethargic and awkward the conversations were conceived.

This is coming from one of your biggest supporters of DA2...as a money grab, well you've cashed in for sure. But a repeat purchase down the road...let's just say you've lost one more fan who'll probably sit on the fence on the next Bioware release.

Let's hope Bioware doesn't make a mess out of Mass Effect 3. I'm a big fan. But with the mess that is DA2. I'm gonna be sitting on the fence till those reviews (ahem..im not gonna trust pc gamer for sure) come in.

[Lord Sullivan]

...

[TygerOfPanTang]

Wivvix wrote...

It's really irrelevant. One store in isolation is meaningless in gauging the views of a broad audience. That's why my inferences are drawn from the metacritic score, which is an average of 20+ published critic reviews. If you had actual sales numbers and copies traded back in over a period of say 4 weeks, from a nation-wide franchise, then you'd be able to apply some statistical analysis and draw inferences.

Do you know what random sampling is? I think that you do judging by your initial post.

I'm sure that you also know that without knowing the exact parameters that the reviewers used in each specific review when compiling their scores and actually using each and every professional review of the game you can't really come up with any hard core statistical analysis.

That would be very costly and take quite a bit of time.

That's where random sampling dances in.

When you look at the average Metacritic score what you are seeing is the result of random sampling.

It doesn't compile  every paid critics review from every gaming site/magazine etc.

Instead it uses a collection of reviews and compiles an average.

Kind of like what I did only with a much smaller geographical data pool. Its not perfect and there are always unknown factors involved (And it wasn't nearly as controled ) but you can still make a pretty good inference (hey there's that word again) from the data collected.

Modifié par TygerOfPanTang, 19 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[CynixV]

Id have to agree with the consensus on this one i just finished DA2 several days ago and havent touched it since. DAO i played 6 or 7 times, I realize that were confined to 1 city but it felt small yet theres even more running from Point A to Point B then DAO. I

-DLC enough with this **** already im tired of it you put out a game like this dont hand out DLC as some kind of treat that wouldve come with any other game 5 years ago. 

[Persephone]

Wivvix wrote...

Metacritic data averages as of 18/3/2011

Dragon Age Origins:
PC: Metascore 91, user score 8.3
Xbox360: Metascore 86, user score 7.5
PS3: Metascore 87, user score 7.6

Dragon Age 2:
PC: Metascore 83, user score 4.2
Xbox360: Metascore 80, user score 4.3
PS3: Metascore 82, user score 3.7

The community has spoken, and the results are plain for all to see. Critics broadly agree Dragon Age 2 was worse than Dragon Age Origins to a lesser extent. Users broadly agree Dragon Age 2 was considerably worse than Dragon Age Origins to a great extent.

The decisions made that navigated the development path from Dragon Age Origins to Dragon Age 2, have led to poor performance of the franchise across all platforms and comparatively poor reception by industry and consumers alike.

Listen to what the community has told you here, Bioware. Overwhelmingly, the changes made in Dragon Age 2 were NOT for the better. The inference drawn can be (is) attributed to the statistical discrepancy between review scores for DAO and DA2. User reviews should be interpreted as a vague guide only, bearing in mind this sample might not accurately represent broader user reviews.

Bring back fully scripted dialogue.
Bring back mature, developed, adult personalities.
Bring back diverse dungeons and not copy-pasted level design.
Bring back party itemisation.
Bring back Dragon Age.

Metacritic is your source? SERIOUSLY? That's SO precious.

[boohead]

It actually has a worse average at gamerankings.com a much more accurate site (imo)

79% ...all time low for Bioware?

[Esbatty]

Why does it sound like people want to go back to playing Zork but with a Magic 8-ball controlled by their spacebar?

[Icinix]

Esbatty wrote...

Why does it sound like people want to go back to playing Zork but with a Magic 8-ball controlled by their spacebar?

No, no good sir.

Kroz.

[LightningSamus]

Game Informer said "Dragon Age II caters to an audience that didn’t connect with Origins, while alienating those who did" and "improving the polish doesn’t do much good when the basics still need work"

[JakePT]

Um, the user review spam proves that statistics do lie.

[Gorescream]

Wivvix wrote...
Listen to what the community has told you here, Bioware. Overwhelmingly, the changes made in Dragon Age 2 were NOT for the better. The inference drawn can be (is) attributed to the statistical discrepancy between review scores for DAO and DA2. User reviews should be interpreted as a vague guide only, bearing in mind this sample might not accurately represent broader user reviews.

Bring back fully scripted dialogue.
Bring back mature, developed, adult personalities.
Bring back diverse dungeons and not copy-pasted level design.
Bring back party itemisation.
Bring back Dragon Age.

I fear it is too late now,

http://massively.joy...elop/#continued

Read Colin's and James' answer.

[Esbatty]

Icinix wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Why does it sound like people want to go back to playing Zork but with a Magic 8-ball controlled by their spacebar?

No, no good sir.

Kroz.

*bows*

Well played, serah.

[Drogo45]

It will interesting to see what these haters and Boo Radleys will say when it become appearant that DA2 sill outsell DA.

[Wivvix]

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
Do you know what random sampling is? I think that you do judging by your initial post.
I'm sure that you also know that without knowing the exact parameters that the reviewers used in each specific review when compiling their scores and actually using each and every professional review of the game you can't really come up with any hard core statistical analysis.

Now you're really clutching at straws. The general metrics for reviews are well established in the industry; presentation, gameplay, story and audio. There is some variation between sub-metrics and weighting, but for all intents and purposes that is largely irrelevant. The average score of these metrics is a good enough indication of how the game as a total package performed. That is what is in question, not the individual parts per se. We can look at the individual parts in analysis or inference, but for the statistics to be valid this is superfluous.

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
That's where random sampling dances in. When you look at the average Metacritic score what you are seeing is the result of random sampling. It doesn't compile  every paid critics review from every gaming site/magazine etc. Instead it uses a collection of reviews and compiles an average.

Uhh no, no it doesn't. I'm not sure you actually know what random sampling is in statistics.
"Metacritic has evolved over the last decade to reflect their experience
distilling many critics' voices into the single Metascore, a weighted
average of the most respected critics writing reviews online and in
print."
It's not a random sample at all. It's a cognisantly selected sample of critic reviews available online and in print.

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
Kind of like what I did only with a much smaller geographical data pool. Its not perfect and there are always unknown factors involved (And it wasn't nearly as controled ) but you can still make a pretty good inference (hey there's that word again) from the data collected.

No, not at all and your sample size was 1. You didn't include or exclude any other sources in arriving at your conclusion, 'That's statistics for you'. Yes the geographical data pool was much smaller. It constituted 1 retail employee's opinion at a single retail store. You can make no good inferences from the data collected. 1 opinion of a retail employee at a store is as good as 1 opinion on an internet forum. It's about as rigorous a methodology as picking a single user review on metacritic for DA2 and basing your entire argument on that alone. As numerous people have already shown, that's fraught with danger given the number of multiple posters and trolling that seems to plague metacritic user reviewing at present. I'd say you aren't much better off with the retail manager that isn't even aware of bugs affecting a newly released game by an AAA company.

Persephone wrote...Metacritic is your source? SERIOUSLY? That's SO precious.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

By all means, provide weighted averages from 20 sources of reputable reviews for DA2 which significantly differ from Metacritics 82/100 average. No? Just here to slag off Metacritic? Thought so.

Modifié par Wivvix, 19 mars 2011 - 11:19 .