301 réponses à ce sujet

[al4mir]

They should forget about console players. Why (insert-things-here) they had to make a RPG for a stupid, useless controller? Why? i know the answer, but it's frustrating...
Only at hard-nightmare i can have my tactical combat.

How i hate console players and newbies...

[JaegerBane]

Wivvix wrote...
The community has spoken, and the results are plain for all to see. Critics broadly agree Dragon Age 2 was worse than Dragon Age Origins to a lesser extent. Users broadly agree Dragon Age 2 was considerably worse than Dragon Age Origins to a great extent.

The decisions made that navigated the development path from Dragon Age Origins to Dragon Age 2, have led to poor performance of the franchise across all platforms and comparatively poor reception by industry and consumers alike.

I think it's good to show hard numbers like this on the forums, but I don't honestly think that what you're saying is news to Bioware. Judging from some of their comments (particularly Stan) it's pretty obvious that they're aware a lot of the changes haven't gone down too well, and they're asking for feedback.

I think the single best way to describe what's going on here was mentioned by one of the professional reviews - words to the effect of 'Bioware have alienated the audience they did have by pandering to the audience they don't have'. I'm not against streamlining and more action-orientated gameplay, but it's fairly they've gone too far in the wrong direction with DA2.

[moilami]

TygerOfPanTang wrote...

So I'm in my local GameStop today and I walked over to the "Pre-owned" 360 shelves. Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

PS3 "Pre-Owned" shelves? Not a single copy of DA:2 on them.

So then I'm standing in front of the DA:2 display and wondering "Should I?" when the owner walks over to BS and try to get me to preorder something. I never do but he always tries.

Seeing as we're both old D&D geeks we talk about the campaign we're currently in for a bit and then I ask him "How many copies of DA:2 have you sold?"

"Around 40 the first day and a couple every day since."

"Huh. How many people brought the game back or traded it in? I don't see any used copies on the shelves."

"None so far."

"Huh. No one came in and complained about it?"

"No. Why is it buggy?"

"Huh. When you get a chance jump on the Bioware forums and check out the DA:2 section."


That's statistics for you.

Master mind could release a buggy game to make it harder for people to re-sell the game during the peak sales phase.

Edit: Not saying BW did it lol. Just having fun in theoretical ways to exploit customers and increase sales.

Modifié par moilami, 19 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[Durgon Ironfist]

I feel the need to say if any of you would be so kind as drop off your soap box for a moment and consider attending a basic statistics class before making these threads. FYI the angry self important purists like the OP tend to respond sooner than the rest considering the rest are happy and don't feel the need to rate it.

[crimsontotem]

DA: O
prologue to a epic fantasy trilogy movie or book take your pick! I mean orchestration of bgms and story telling was utterly phenomenal

DA 2
I felt like i was watching OK fantasy movie... I mean where's the story!! I was never able to interact with character...
I mean come on... at least u guys could have put some emotional music at the end where all of your companion is gathered... not even that? Also I couldn't find any companion that I could be attached as well as I did with all of Origin's companions... seriously. Storytelling was by far the worst among bioware games. It was literally piece of ****.

[BY-TOR STORMDRAGON]

Here's a statistic. I am 50. I played "Ultima: Exodus" on the NES. No f*ing computer gamer lamers to be found. Then computers went ballistic- heaps of standard and graphic-intense RPG's. None touched Final Fantasy 7, but I digress.
I have never seen so much ****ing about a game, and believe me, I am a hater of everything shooter, Mass Effect, and then some. The blood and guts in DA 2 is just stupid. But when I find a story and characters I like- I will be a loyalist. It is not DA Origins. That game is legendary. But this game kicks the sh*t out of any game Squaresoft has done since the epic FF7. By the way...other than Mass Effect (which I sold back the same day) I have played only 3 Bioware tiles. I have enjoyed them both.
That says a lot for an old game like myself who isn't spoiled on gore, guns and aliens, warfare and violence. But then, some of you were in diapers back when. Get a grip. Then go outside and run awhile...leave the Big Mac at the machine.

[Tirigon]

The big problem with reviews in general is the X/10 at the end. It kinda ruins it since it´s ALWAYS subjective.

Just describe the game and let people judge for themselves if you want a credible review.

Example:
"Combat in DA2 is more fast-paced and action-oriented than in DAO. Animations are mostly over-the-top with focus on action and shiny graphics instead of DAO´s realistic approach.
Tactics are harder to plan ahead and need to be adapted more quickly as all fights consist of several waves of enemies spawning one after the other.
Isometric camera view is lacking."

So far, these are facts. But how to rate them? If you liked DAO and, like me, hate these spawning waves and the unrelistic animations, you could give it a 0 or 1 and YOU´D BE RIGHT.

On the other hand, you might have a funny taste and enjoy this stuff much more thanDAO combat and thus could give it a 9 or even 10, AND YOU´D STILL BE RIGHT!!!!

[JaegerBane]

TygerOfPanTang wrote...
It usually doesn't take more than 2-4 days before
games start getting traded in or people try to return a game for a refund  just
because "It sucks." Yes even some AAA titles.

"Weak recount" ?


Hardly. There is nothing wrong with my memory sir and what I relayed is
relevant  as, if so many people hated the game and if it were, in fact, so
horrible I would imagine that at least a couple would have traded their copy in
or attempted a return.

Nice try to discredit my post though.  I suppose you made the effort because it doesn't line up with your opinion.

Rereading my post I did notice one error. I'm not
sure if the guy I know actually owns the store he just manages it.
I'm not
sure on that as I've never bothered to ask him.

I've gotta agree with Wiv here. You obviously don't understand the dynamics at play to assume that games begin to get traded in any great number within 2-4 days of release. Unless you're an out of work slob, the average gamer can't even physically fit the game into 2-4 days so it's largely irrelevant the fact that there were no pre-owned copies. I worked in a games retailer for 2 years when I was a student and, particularly for 'AAA' games, you were unlikely to see any large number of pre-owned new releases coming in until at least 1-2 weeks and that was only for the really horrific titles (which, as metacritic shows, DA2 isn't one of them).

On top of that, due to the poor return players get for pre-owned in general, whether games get traded in has virtually nothing to do with their quality and lots to do with the gamer's means and intelligence.

I mean, just to highlight the lack of relevance of your anecdote, I remember when Oblivion came out - with 3 weeks we had 2 Collector's Editions and 2 normal ones across the two big consoles. In comparison, when Bad Boyz 2 came out it was 4 weeks before we received a single copy traded in. Our sister store in the nearby city got one after 3 weeks. Am I to understand that Bad Boyz 2 is some sort of unsung classic purely because it wasn't traded in as much as Oblivion in the opening weeks?

Clearly, as Wiv said, your story isn't justifiably a reason to claim a large group of user reviews on a site dedicated to bringing together such reviews is somehow mistaken. If you want to challenge the statistics, you need more than single anecdote from your local store based on a factor of dubious relevance. It's like watching a ferrari drive past my flat, then walking away from the window with the belief that ferraris are common cars on british roads. It's silly.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 19 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[ashwind]

Wivvix wrote...

ashwind wrote...
 -in page 2-

Yet another poster who utterly fails to comprehend the purpose of the original post, or to read any subsequent clarifications. I did not base my inference on the user reviews, but on the metacritic review. Clearly I shall have to amend the original post to state this explicitly, lest another person fail to scroll down the page before replying.

You claim that statistics do not lie in the title and presented statistics that are irrelevant (user spam review)... for what purpose if not to mislead readers? Regardless, I did miss the fine print which says "User reviews should be interpreted as a vague guide only". Since it is vague, I will not use it as a guide. I can manage vagueness pretty well without a guide.

Lets examine what you have associated the statistic with then.

1. Bring back fully scripted dialogue.
2. Bring back mature, developed, adult personalities.
3. Bring back diverse dungeons and not copy-pasted level design.
4. Bring back party itemisation.
5. Bring back Dragon Age. 

#1 - This is all down to preference. I like to click on "You must be joking" and be suprised by what the character might actually say. I can understand some do not like it but with the icons that shows - Good, Humor, Aggressive, Flirt - I say Bioware has made some improvement since ME1. While I will not mind having it - I doubt it will affect the overall score too much.

#2 - I.. fail to see how DA2 is lacking in this... 

#3 - Agreed and I think Bioware knows it too. Think Mike just admitted that it turned out pretty bad in his interview.

#4 - Again, personal preference. If anything, it is hard to "role-play" while I am constantly dressing up my companions like dolls. Just to clarify - I prefer to play the role of Hawke (roleplay) - not the invisible hand behind the party. I cant imagine Averline not wearing her uniform to work... what I can imagine is her fist in my face if I (Hawke) tries to dress her up - the same is true for Morrigan and Leliana.

#5 - Dragon Age? Why stop there? Lets bring back BG2, BG, Ultima Serpents Isle. No DA2 is not perfect, overall DAO did better but that is no reason to linger on to the pass. 

Modifié par ashwind, 19 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[crimsontotem]

with game messy like this you can't help but to look at the past...

imo party immersion, compared to DA:O, sucked...

there wasn't a single person who i felt like my home bro like Alistair...

and I couldn't feel the any pressure or actual anxiety as I felt in DA:O's Morrigan's ritual...

I understand they were trying to do mix some ME2 stuff on DA2 but, with epic prequel, it just

couldn't do its job... I really hope bioware learn from this mess

[Cuthlan]

al4mir wrote...

They should forget about console players. Why (insert-things-here) they had to make a RPG for a stupid, useless controller? Why? i know the answer, but it's frustrating...
Only at hard-nightmare i can have my tactical combat.

How i hate console players and newbies...

Seeing as there is a completely different control/combat system for the two platforms, there is no connection between your issue and the fact that DA2 is available for consoles.

But you're right. They should alienate the largest population of gamers to satisfy your idiotic opinion.

Modifié par Cuthlan, 19 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[TJSolo]

Again, personal preference. If anything, it is hard to "role-play" while I am constantly dressing up my companions like dolls.

Then don't.
When someone asks for the option to customize characters that means they gain the option to do so while retain the option to not.

Just to clarify - I prefer to play the role of Hawke (roleplay) - not the invisible hand behind the party. I cant imagine Averline not wearing her uniform to work...

When she is with Hawke she is not at work, those are her off-hours.

[Eledran]

DA2 packed less value than DAO, yes, I will agree with the critics there.

However, there is no way anyone could say that this game deserves 300 or so 0/10 to 3/10 ratings with a straight face. The way these popped up in a veritable ****storm on the day of release or shortly after undermines the credibility of the user ratings.

Modifié par Eledran, 19 mars 2011 - 12:14 .

[Tirigon]

Cuthlan wrote...

But you're right. They should alienate the largest population of gamers to satisfy your idiotic opinion.

Consoles are inferior to PC as a gaming platform anyways. You´d do those guys a favor by forcing them to play on PC...

[Imusi]

I think DA2 is much better then DA1. I like the 2 much better. In story and in action. 

[FataliTensei]

Tirigon wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...

But you're right. They should alienate the largest population of gamers to satisfy your idiotic opinion.

Consoles are inferior to PC as a gaming platform anyways. You´d do those guys a favor by forcing them to play on PC...

I prefer a controller over keyboard any day but thats just me

[ashwind]

TJSolo wrote...

Again, personal preference. If anything, it is hard to "role-play" while I am constantly dressing up my companions like dolls.

Then don't.
When someone asks for the option to customize characters that means they gain the option to do so while retain the option to not.

If we bring back the old DAO itemization - That option would mean those who do not want to do it are force to do it as well right? Else those characters will die later in game and become totally ineffective.

Then I suppose some would say - keep the current system and allow us to change the item if we chooses to. Now even that would still not be the case "bring the itemization back", because that is actually an improvement over both DAO and DA2.

Just to clarify - I prefer to play the role of Hawke (roleplay) - not the invisible hand behind the party. I cant imagine Averline not wearing her uniform to work...

When she is with Hawke she is not at work, those are her off-hours.

And... Hawke dresses her up during her off hours? I dont think her husband would appreciate that... well unless she married Zev. 

In short - games evolve. In the process of evolving there are ups and downs. It would surely be the end of us if we keep running back to the old ways of doing things whenever something goes wrong. OP is claiming that the statistic clearly shows that Bioware should go backwards because DA2 is not overall as good as DAO (which I can agree) but imo - it is not that DAO is that great, DA2 fall short because maybe... maybe.. Bioware spent too much time (not enough time) in developing the new engine, new rules, new style, etc and did not pay attention (spent enough time) to details and the pacing and the content.

Modifié par ashwind, 19 mars 2011 - 12:45 .

[Tirigon]

FataliTensei wrote...

I prefer a controller over keyboard any day but thats just me

Then sell your PC and surf the Interweb with a controller:P:P:P

Ashwind wrote...

If we bring back the old DAO itemization - That option would mean those who do not want to do it are force to do it as well right? Else those characters will die later in game and become totally ineffective.

No. Never changed Morrigan´s robes except for those you gain at Flemeth´s who look the same, and she still was my second best party member (after main char) on Nightmare, soooo....

Modifié par Tirigon, 19 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Tirigon wrote...

The big problem with reviews in general is the X/10 at the end. It kinda ruins it since it´s ALWAYS subjective.

Just describe the game and let people judge for themselves if you want a credible review.

Example:
"Combat in DA2 is more fast-paced and action-oriented than in DAO. Animations are mostly over-the-top with focus on action and shiny graphics instead of DAO´s realistic approach.
Tactics are harder to plan ahead and need to be adapted more quickly as all fights consist of several waves of enemies spawning one after the other.
Isometric camera view is lacking."

So far, these are facts. But how to rate them? If you liked DAO and, like me, hate these spawning waves and the unrelistic animations, you could give it a 0 or 1 and YOU´D BE RIGHT.

On the other hand, you might have a funny taste and enjoy this stuff much more thanDAO combat and thus could give it a 9 or even 10, AND YOU´D STILL BE RIGHT!!!!

You can't be more wrong than that. You're talking about personal preferences - which would mean that someone who doesn't like RP and fantasy games and reviews such games will argue everything sucks because no matter how good the game is, (s)he doesn't like it.

You obviously don't like what BW did with the combat system, which is a valid opinion, but it doesn't make the combat system bad. There are plenty of skills to chose from, there is more focus on co operation (lots of cool CCCs) - which is the core element of any squadbased RPG. To rate this 0 or 1 simply because the pace and the animations don't appeal to you is pathetic. It's like rating a car - which is fuel efficient, ergonomic, has a huge trunk, is cheap, but you think it looks awful - 1/10.

You'd be right giving your opinion, but you'd be a worthless reviewer.

[Tirigon]

@ Bozorgmehr: That was exactly my point. Reviews that rate instead of describe ARE, by their very nature, useless sh!t unless you happen to share the reviewer´s taste and opinion.

[TJSolo]

If we bring back the old DAO itemization - That option would mean those who do not want to do it are force to do it as well right? Else those characters will die later in game and become totally ineffective.

Nope I did not say bring back the DAO system. I said bring back character customization as it will allow those they want to change their companion armor to do so and it allows those that are to ****ing lazy to open then inventory to leave their companions in whatever gear they started with. If Bioware wants to take both groups into account then balance decisions must be made, ie starting gear for the lazies change automatically or scale with progression.

And... Hawke dresses her up during her off hours? I dont think her husband would appreciate that... well unless she married Zev.

Nope, when I RP in team games like this whenever a character dips into the group loot bag for armor or gear it is that character deciding what is good for them.

I don't really know what you mean by evolving since that tactic of having characters whose clothes never is a rather old one and not an innovation or advancement. The "retaining uniqueness" line is bunk to create few models per character.

[Wivvix]

ashwind wrote...
You claim that statistics do not lie in the title and presented statistics that are irrelevant (user spam review)... for what purpose if not to mislead readers? Regardless, I did miss the fine print which says "User reviews should be interpreted as a vague guide only". Since it is vague, I will not use it as a guide. I can manage vagueness pretty well without a guide.

I posted the user review scores simply because they are one of the two key statistics provided by metacritic for reviews; Metacritic scores and user reviews.
It wasn't fine print at all, it was pretty clearly stated. Moreover it required a careful misinterpretation of what I said to even wind up at your interpretation.
All personal/user opinions are comparatively vague compared to a published critique/review. That I have to point out that i'm NOT using that statistic as basis for my inference, goes to show some people clearly haven't caught onto this.

ashwind wrote...
Lets examine what you have associated the statistic with then.

Allow me to clarify yet again, so you know what is being associated with which statistic.

Wivvix wrote...
The inference drawn can be (is) attributed to the statistical
discrepancy between review scores for DAO and DA2. User reviews should
be interpreted as a vague guide only, bearing in mind this sample might
not accurately represent broader user reviews.

Which is to say that the only inferences or statements made pertain to the Metacritic scores, NOT user reviews. The user reviews are superfluous and included as anecdotal evidence.

Modifié par Wivvix, 19 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Funker Shepard]

Mifune013 wrote...

The problem with those numbers is how many people have actually played the game, or did they just decide to hate the game because of something they heard about it.

*ding*, we have a winner.

An entertaining aspect one notices even in these forums, most of the people spewing DA2 hate do not, actually, have the symbol under their avatars, which makes their opinion rather... suspect.

[djackson75]

 The only stats that matter will be total sales... that's it.

[Bozorgmehr]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Bozorgmehr: That was exactly my point. Reviews that rate instead of describe ARE, by their very nature, useless sh!t unless you happen to share the reviewer´s taste and opinion.

Agreed, a reviewer who gives his/her opinion is a bad reviewer IMHO. They should look at the technical aspects and keep their opinion to themselves. Using a rating system isn't bad per say, but it should be unbiased.

Before designing a product a list of demands and wishes must be made. It's quite easy to rank all the different demands and wishes (like putting a lot of resources on the story and a little less on the combat system - for example). During the design process the devs will think of many possibilities which have to be reviewed using the list of demands and wishes and the idea/concept with the highest score is likely the best option (assuming the list of D&W is good).

Reviewers ought to do the exact same thing. They have to make a list about what a specific game wants to accomplish and then review how good or bad that game scores on all the criteria. A reviewer who gives the DA2 combat system 10/10 is a moron, but so is a reviewer who rates the system 1/10. DA2 combat is pretty good, it has its flaws but the core system is solid. A proper review would rate it 6-8/10 and explains the pros and cons.