323 réponses à ce sujet

[Arnyhold]

Hi Guys,

Please let me understand her. I would like to start with this statement: this is not a bashing thread, I just do not get her. The whole concept for every single character in the game is incredibly good (apart from her). Even if all of the romance options I encountered ends tragically (feels like they were written by a hearthbroken guy). Only Merill's concept staggers my mind. I do understand they wanted to make a naive, bashful character, but WHY the hell she have to be a bloodmage? Or even a mage? I mean even if you love her you must admit she is not simply naive and bashful, but stupid. EVERYONE including his whole clan, possibly you and every single one of your compainions tell her to NOT play with bloodmagic or the mirror, yet she is obsessed with it... Okay it could have been demonic influence, but at the last story she admits she did not hear from the demon since start (6+ years...). Yes she is cute, but come on... In search of the mirror (to restore the former glory of the elves) she potentially massacres the whole clan along with a keeper and keep saying omg I wish it was a dream. She stabs the keeper: omg I wish it is a dream. Then reverts back to her normal bashful, cutenaive self. Like if it was a dream!
In search for the power of the mirror (wich she even fails to repair) she sacrefices everything and when facing the consequences: I wish it was a dream, shrug, keep walking. I do understand some ppl find her cute and I agree she has lot of funny lines, but her character is so messed up... The idea of the mirror and the storyline is cool in itself and her naive, cute approach is likeable, but they just do not match! They should have make two characters for this... Or at least make some charcter development. There is no way the events of her storylane has no effect on her at all! It just justifies that she is simply... well sorry for the word, but stupid, to realize anything...

[nomzy]

Denial is very powerful..?
It's not as if you're bound by some arbitrary law to display your emotions, could all be a facade.

Modifié par nomzy, 18 mars 2011 - 11:05 .

[Naitaka]

Did you notice how her companion quest is the only one filled with so many bugs? I bet she was the last companion they made and was rushed out of the door to meet the deadline.

[Kilshrek]

Good god man, paragraphs.

She's a blood mage for reasons explained in the story.

Her character has changed somewhat from Origins, where she was rather confident and sure of herself.

She's obsessed with the mirror/eluvian because she's convinced it holds secrets to Dalish history, perhaps some parts fooled by the demon that told her it was there when the mirror was forged. Duncan said they were Tevinter objects, not Dalish. The mirror also caused her to lose her two good/best friends in the clan, the potential Warden and Tamlen. You might be able to sympathise with that angle.

Her pursuit of the mirror's secrets led to Marethari sealing a deal with the demon to protect Merrill, with the only solution the death of Marethari. She is horrified by that but assuming Hawke stays on the friendship path with her I think she just pulls through without major damage, Hawke being the focus of her life now, instead of the clan. My interpretation anyway.

The way the system works is certainly slightly wonky but I don't see her character flawed in any major way. Admittedly I haven't gone down the rivalry path with her, since I think it's like kicking your favourite puppy.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 18 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[SuicidalBaby]

wonky? giving her a 5 gold gift is -15 rivalry no matter your responces. Thats not wonky, thats god damn retarded. I am begining to loath every conversation in this hack job of a sequel. I cant even sell the gift. what a fking waste.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 18 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Rafe34]

Naitaka wrote...

Did you notice how her companion quest is the only one filled with so many bugs? I bet she was the last companion they made and was rushed out of the door to meet the deadline.

I agree. Merrill was likely the last companion they made. I still have my save at the beginning of Act 3 before talking to her, because she thinks the Keeper is already dead, lol.

@OP: As far as stabbing the Keeper goes, she had to. The Keeper was an abomination. She's moving like a zombie at that point, just doing what she has to do, because she's in shock. Or at least, that's how I saw it.

[Lobo420]

the events in the Dalish Origins story are why she is kind of obsessed in DA:2. & she just does not really know how to talk to anyone that isnt dalish.

& being so clueless about everything that isnt Dalish is why i like her so much, some of the stuff she says is funny as hell


 & speaking of bugs, after you fight the demon in act 3 for her quest,  & you say "im glad thats over" the keeper stabs merrill & the fight continues, merril doesnt die or become posessed like i thought she would.

Modifié par Lobo420, 18 mars 2011 - 01:32 .

[Heidenreich]

Merrill is young. She's like a 16 year old who's convinced herself that sleeping with her boyfriend is EXACTLY the best thing to do, despite mom and dad's insistence that she's not actually in love with the boy who got arrested 6 times for theft and drug sales. In fact, the more mom and dad tell her no, the MORE RIGHT she believes she is.

If you help her, she convinces herself she's right. I mean, Hawke isn't telling her no! Silly Keeper thinking she knows more! If you don't help her, she puts you in the "Keeper knows nothing, I know everything" box. One more 'adult' telling her she's wrong when she KNOWS its right, damnit!

This, is Merrills thought process.

As for the gifts, she's sad. Giving her stuff that reminds her of home, especially if you're more insistent that she could just give this silly quest up and GO HOME, makes her more irritated and annoyed, then grateful. You CAN get friendship points from gifts, but it depends on how you talk to her about it.

[Rafe34]

Lobo420 wrote...

the events in the Dalish Origins story are why she is kind of obsessed in DA:2. & she just does not really know how to talk to anyone that isnt dalish.

& being so clueless about everything that isnt Dalish is why i like her so much, some of the stuff she says is funny as hell


 & speaking of bugs, after you fight the demon in act 3 for her quest,  & you say "im glad thats over" the keeper stabs merrill & the fight continues, merril doesnt die or become posessed like i thought she would.

Ah! Man I didn't know something different happened depending on the choice you made, that's pretty cool.

Except... not really, since nothing negative actually comes out of it. Bah. I think if I could sum up DA2's failings in two words it would be: Missed Opportunities.

[teeru]

I think she's that character you're meant to feel bad for. Like, being mean to her makes me feel like I'm kicking a puppy in the face - She's a naive, shy, confused and pitiful girl. She's a little too confused that she's into blood magic, considering she calls the demon a "spirit" but I think she's meant to be like that, y'know?

[Rhostadt]

Or maybe she isn't obsessed, maybe she's just firm in her convictions to rediscover her people's heritage despite the massive peer pressure. Comments she makes about demons, blood mages, and abominations during other quests makes it very clear she knows exactly what she's dealing with, and what the dangers are, and how to defend herself. She's naive about a lot of things, but I never saw any evidence that she was naive about that mirror. But we never get the chance to see how she would have handled the completed mirror because Marethari jumped the gun. Remember, Merrill tells Hawke that one of the reasons she wants him/her there to help finish the mirror is as a last line of defense in case she becomes possessed.

Finally, you can't blame Merrill for Marethari's actions, nor for her clan getting wiped out. Her clan have their own minds, and make their own decisions, and suffer their own consequences (and attacking Hawke tends to be suicide). Not to mention, fighting the clan isn't automatic, so if you wipe them out it's arguably Hawke's fault for not avoiding it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

wonky? giving her a 5 gold gift is -15 rivalry no matter your responces. Thats not wonky, thats god damn retarded. I am begining to loath every conversation in this hack job of a sequel. I cant even sell the gift. what a fking waste.

I gave her both gifts and did not get rivalry from either one. 

[Shepard Lives]

This entire thread is proof that Merrill's concept and character are fantastic.

[Lobo420]

wish there wouldnt have been so many bugs but merrill was priceless

[Neleothesze]

Heidenreich wrote...

Merrill is young. She's like a 16 year old who's convinced herself that sleeping with her boyfriend is EXACTLY the best thing to do, despite mom and dad's insistence that she's not actually in love with the boy who got arrested 6 times for theft and drug sales. In fact, the more mom and dad tell her no, the MORE RIGHT she believes she is.

If you help her, she convinces herself she's right. I mean, Hawke isn't telling her no! Silly Keeper thinking she knows more! If you don't help her, she puts you in the "Keeper knows nothing, I know everything" box. One more 'adult' telling her she's wrong when she KNOWS its right, damnit!

This, is Merrills thought process.

As for the gifts, she's sad. Giving her stuff that reminds her of home, especially if you're more insistent that she could just give this silly quest up and GO HOME, makes her more irritated and annoyed, then grateful. You CAN get friendship points from gifts, but it depends on how you talk to her about it.

In my first runs I didn't bother taking her along because I thought she was a few sandwitches short of a picnic... but you make some good points especially now that I've noticed how she interacts with the others in the group... she's just as innocent as Bethany only a bit more loony... perhaps because she was always treated as an outsider by the clan.

[shaneho78]

There is one conversation at her house where she mentioned that she thought it was cool (ok maybe not that word) that someone got robbed. It showed her naivety and that she had little understanding of the moral system that governs people, whether humans or elves. Her naivety makes her vulnerable to corruption especially with her dangerous foray into blood magic and her obsession with the demonic mirror. I really thought the story would chart her descend from sweet elf to some kind of demonic entity. It was a wasted opportunity, i felt.

[Lobo420]

Indolence wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Merrill is young. She's like a 16 year old who's convinced herself that sleeping with her boyfriend is EXACTLY the best thing to do, despite mom and dad's insistence that she's not actually in love with the boy who got arrested 6 times for theft and drug sales. In fact, the more mom and dad tell her no, the MORE RIGHT she believes she is.

If you help her, she convinces herself she's right. I mean, Hawke isn't telling her no! Silly Keeper thinking she knows more! If you don't help her, she puts you in the "Keeper knows nothing, I know everything" box. One more 'adult' telling her she's wrong when she KNOWS its right, damnit!

This, is Merrills thought process.

As for the gifts, she's sad. Giving her stuff that reminds her of home, especially if you're more insistent that she could just give this silly quest up and GO HOME, makes her more irritated and annoyed, then grateful. You CAN get friendship points from gifts, but it depends on how you talk to her about it.

In my first runs I didn't bother taking her along because I thought she was a few sandwitches short of a picnic... but you make some good points especially now that I've noticed how she interacts with the others in the group... she's just as innocent as Bethany only a bit more loony... perhaps because she was always treated as an outsider by the clan.

if she's an outsider she has put herself in that position, she was not like that in Origins. she only became obsessed with the mirror after Tamlen disappeared. she even mentions tamlen in one of the conversations how she thought she saw him out of the corner of her eye but then he was gone. she even keeps a shard of the mirror with her, when you first meet her in DA2 she is looking at something glowing that she hides as Hawke & party approach. add that with her later quests & you know what it is.

[Arnyhold]

Thanks for the help some of you make valid points, still the game is based on the fact that mages are dangerous and the tension between the templars and mages.
 
All that it suiggests that in this world when those mages who seek power eventually will become corrupted and most likely crazy. Merill is supposed to be a blood mage. She has the power to control blood and meddle with demons. You think this is a good background for being cute, naive and bashful? Seriously in the game ever single NPC who turned to blood magic became a crazy ass with time. The only one who didn't is that young black circle mage, but I guess it is only matter of time (I was totally with the mages btw). I just do not understand WHY they had to make her a bloodmage.

It really feels like they just made this character in the last seconds... Also I cannot help it, but I just keep comparing her to Tali from ME... She has the same characteristics (and I love her truly), but she was way more better written. It is almost like if you take Tali and say she secretly builds a Geth army to cook more delicios bakery for the exodus fleet.

Sometimes simplier is better... You do not have to make everyone bloodmage or posessed or from the Mars to make him/her more interesting...

Things that Merill surprisingly sure of :
She can control bloodmagic
The Eluvian is reeeeally important

On everything else she clings on others opinion, but for these two things no matter how many ppl says she is being stupid (sometimes literally) she insists. After killing her own keeper who is like her mother, because she was posessed by a deamon and even killing everyone else she seems to be okay with it. It just failed the two thing she thought is important and sure of it. She cannot control it and she cannot build the mirror. Yet nothing happens within her personality.

Modifié par Arnyhold, 18 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Every single mage we've seen use blood magic has come to a bad end, yes.

1) However, some of those bad ends were as much the result of the way any mage who is even suspected of using blood magic is treated by the power structure of the world they live in.

2) They've all been human blood mages.

[Arnyhold]

Bloodmages develop bloodmagic, because they want more power. It is not like the general hate for mages. It is stated that bloodmagic is evil and not because people find it gross to cut their wrists. Check the lore. You do not forced to learn and use bloodmagic. It is like saying the dark side is good they just need more attention and love.

"2) They've all been human blood mages. "

Lol. No. one of the bloodmages you hunt is an elf and the first enchanter is pretty much an elf also. He was quite skilled in blood magic.

Modifié par Arnyhold, 18 mars 2011 - 04:48 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

I had honestly forgotten the elven blood mage in that quest.  As for Orsino, I could swear I had read that he only turned to the use of blood magic in that last desperate moment. And that would fit in with the "driven to it" catagory. If you squeeze people too hard, eventually they pop.

Blood magic is no more inherently evil than any other form of magic in the DA setting. It's just more dangerous. It has become stigmatized in a way that goes beyond other forms of magic because of history and because of who normally turns to it.

Never mind that "the dark side" and the rest of Lucas's Force mythology is a load of crap, there's also no real comparison between that and blood magic. Sheesh.

Mages turn to blood magic for more power?  In the end, the same could be said of any mage studies anything beyond what is needed to keep his power in check. 

DA2 goes out of its way to present blood mages as lost to evil and inherently corrupt and "messed in the head" in a way that goes well beyond what we saw in DA:O.   And yet, we never see Merrill do anything wicked to anyone -- again, so much of the suffering that comes out of the situation is in how others react to her before she had done anything to anyone.  The Keeper dies because she made the choice to trap the demon and sacrifice herself. 

A mage Hawke or mage Warden is quite capable of being a blood mage and still being just as good / nice / generous / fair / kind as any other Hawke or Warden. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 18 mars 2011 - 05:24 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

I. The humans likely learned blood magic from the elves of Arlathan (consider "wounds of the past" as the spell name). The alternative theory is that the Old Gods told them, but that's the Chantry's word.

II. Not all blood mages are abominations: see the Tevinter magisters, who can command demons at their whim (and even dragons, in the olden days).

III. She spent years studying this sort of thing--her character bio says she knows all the known elven history and lore, and her room in the alienage is FILLED with books.

IV. Even so, she acknowledged the threat the demon posed and asked Hawke to kill her if it got free and possessed her.

V. Therefore, her goal is tireless in self-sacrifice. She's unwilling to let her people's heritage become destroyed because they're too stubborn to try to save themselves.

VI. She was in tears not because she made a mistake, but because the Keeper got herself killed for no good reason: Merrill never got the chance to try to see if the demon could help. She was willing to kill herself in the process to SAVE the others (and/or prevent the demon from getting them) and having the Keeper take in the demon instead undermines that completely.

VII. This is not the same thing as admitting she is in the wrong path, to begin with.

VIII. It is a serious lack of nuance to say that "we see a few crazy blood mages, therefore all blood mages are crazy." The blood mages we see are tormented, desperate, uneducated blood mages who resort to blood magic because it's quicker, easier, and powerful but without investing the study and discipline required to do it properly (not that they have access to it, thanks Templars!).

I am happy to help you understand Merrill. She makes absolute perfect sense to me, and I adore her so because I agree with her 100%. The first step, though, is that you need to realize that I. she's motivated to preserve the heritage of the Elvhenan II. she's willing to sacrifice herself so that her experimentation doesn't hurt others III. blood magic is not inherently evil, it's merely inherently risky.

After that, it makes a lot more sense.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 18 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Arnyhold wrote...

 I do understand they wanted to make a naive, bashful character, but WHY the hell she have to be a bloodmage? Or even a mage? I mean even if you love her you must admit she is not simply naive and bashful, but stupid. EVERYONE including his whole clan, possibly you and every single one of your compainions tell her to NOT play with bloodmagic or the mirror, yet she is obsessed with it...

Considering there are Grey Warden mages who use blood magic, we already know not all blood mages are evil or consider blood magic to be evil. Also, the Eluvian is a piece of the lost history of her people, which is the entire premise behind the Dalish - who are focused on reclaiming the lost lore of Arlathan. I don't think it's stupid that she wants to restore the Eluvian, considering it was important enough that Morrigan went through one (and so can the Hero of Ferelden).

[Addai]

shaneho78 wrote...

There is one conversation at her house where she mentioned that she thought it was cool (ok maybe not that word) that someone got robbed. It showed her naivety and that she had little understanding of the moral system that governs people, whether humans or elves. Her naivety makes her vulnerable to corruption especially with her dangerous foray into blood magic and her obsession with the demonic mirror. I really thought the story would chart her descend from sweet elf to some kind of demonic entity. It was a wasted opportunity, i felt.

Yeah, I was already hating her for taking in the eluvian when she knows what it did to Tamlen and the Dalish Warden, but being charmed by a mugging was a headshake moment.  Sweet and innocent is one thing, but even the Dalish know about bandits.

So now I just want to slap her.  I would like to get her character, however, so it's good the OP started the thread because I'm wondering the same thing.

[Sarah1281]

Rhostadt wrote...

Or maybe she isn't obsessed, maybe she's just firm in her convictions to rediscover her people's heritage despite the massive peer pressure. Comments she makes about demons, blood mages, and abominations during other quests makes it very clear she knows exactly what she's dealing with, and what the dangers are, and how to defend herself. She's naive about a lot of things, but I never saw any evidence that she was naive about that mirror. But we never get the chance to see how she would have handled the completed mirror because Marethari jumped the gun. Remember, Merrill tells Hawke that one of the reasons she wants him/her there to help finish the mirror is as a last line of defense in case she becomes possessed.

Finally, you can't blame Merrill for Marethari's actions, nor for her clan getting wiped out. Her clan have their own minds, and make their own decisions, and suffer their own consequences (and attacking Hawke tends to be suicide). Not to mention, fighting the clan isn't automatic, so if you wipe them out it's arguably Hawke's fault for not avoiding it.

I don't blame Merrill for the suicidal clan but that's not 'arguably' Hawke's fault, either. Assuming you're not metagaming, what is the rationale for assuming that admitting what really happened (that the Keeper chose to become an abomination and, as per Dalish tradition, was killed) would lead to a massacre and claiming that Hawke killed her would lead to a simple banishment? 

Also, I don't think she had a clue what she was doing. She seemed shocked and horrified when Marethari told her that the demon had been trying to get her to repair the mirror so that it could escape into the mortal world. All the advice it was giving was for the sake of freeing itself, not recovering any lost Dalish history. Marethari 'jumped the gun'? How so? By making sure that Merrill would not die for her mistakes and dying in her place? Hawke didn't really know what Merrill was doing so she couldn't have stopped her. All Hawke could have done was killed a possessed Merrill.