323 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

cglasgow wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I then told Marethari about Merrill's plans and she anded up sacrificing herself for Merrill and I managed to get that clan to back down. All in all it seemed like a bit like an accident.

Marethari still binds herself to the demon even if you give her no advance warning at all.

It's like she already did it before you got to the camp in act 3, even.

Which is why her last-ditch attempt to convince Merrill to abandon the mirror is so stupid. If she had succeeded, Marethari would still need to be killed.

[Gorthaur X]

"If a tree fells in a forest
and there's no one around
is it still Merrill's fault?"

Really, I tend to agree with cglasgow and Emperor Iaius I, though there's one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned:

cglasgow wrote...

Merrill had made the choice to risk, and 99% likely sacrifice, her own life to try and give her people a better future. Normally, we call this kind of decision heroic! But since the mirror was actually all a lie, like a certain cake, and not going to actually help the elven renaissance, then it goes from 'heroic' to 'tragic' instead. And dear Maker, is it tragic.

Do we actually have any reason to believe that the mirror was a lie? Yes, we can reasonably assume that Marethari was right when she said the demon only wanted to use it to escape its prison, but that is hardly something Merrill hadn't anticipated, and also not mutually exclusive with the demon having been honest about fixing the Eluvian. We know from The Witch Hunt that opening doors to other places, even other dimensions or planes (for lack of better DA-specific terminology), was part of the designed functionality of the mirrors: it seems  that while the demon's motives were malicious, it was still entirely within its own best interest to keep the bargain about restoring the Eluvian's power.

Which makes me want to slap Marethari on the forehead even more. Had she not interfered, the Dalish would, at the worst, have had access to an incredibly powerful relic of their past, restored and functional. At best, they would have had the Eluvian and Merrill - after all, defeating one more Pride Demon is hardly beyond Hawke's capabilities.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 23 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Vhalkyrie]

I know many people love Merrill, but she was my least favorite character. Morrigan was awkward about the world outside of the Wilds, but extremely intelligent. Merrill was cutesy, naive, and stupid. I couldn't find anything redeeming about her. She was exactly the kind of person I would have put in the Circle if there was the option.  She had vast, dangerous power, and little wisdom or good judgement to wield it.  We ended up 100% rivals, and I've never brought her on quests where I didn't have to.

I can't figure out why she was ever the First.  Thank the old gods she never became Keeper.  She's not at all wise, nor a leader.  She can't convince anyone she is doing the right thing, no one will follow her.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Gorthaur X]

Morrigan may have been more or less intelligent than Merrill, but she was certainly at least equally naive. The only reason I can see that people would think otherwise is that they don't bother looking past Merrill's dorky demeanor and actually examining her real motivations and outlook. Morrigan just happens to have that "bad girl" attitude that apparently masks her naivete to many people.

Merrill was highly conscientious and responsible about all the choices that she made, and the only reason things didn't turn out exactly as she planned was outside interference.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 23 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Morrigan may have been more or less intelligent than Merrill, but she was certainly at least equally naive. The only reason I can see that people would think otherwise is that they don't bother looking past Merrill's dorky demeanor and actually examining her real motivations and outlook. Morrigan just happens to have that "bad girl" attitude that apparently masks her naivete to many people.

Merrill was highly conscientious and responsible about all the choices that she made, and the only reason things didn't turn out exactly as she planned was outside interference.

Going to have to disagree with you there.  Morrigan knew what the mirror did.  She stole the book from the Dalish in Witch Hunt to know how to use it, and what it did. Morrigan sought it out because it was part of her plan (whatever that is).  Morrigan was calculating, and deliberate.  Merrill had no idea what the mirror was, what it did, or how she was going to use it.  All she knew was what the demon told her.  Extremely reckless.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[Gorthaur X]

Morrigan was also at the very least as clueless as Merrill when it came to other people; she just gets a pass because she was clueless in the "toubled cool kid" way rather than the "dork" way. That's what I was referring to with the naivete comment.

As for Merrill's knowledge of the mirror, we may not know exactly how extensive it was, but we do know that her plan to fix it was entirely viable. People keep talking about how she "trusted" or "was tricked by" a demon, but this is entirely untrue: everything Merrill did up to the point of going to meet Audacity again went according to her plans, and with no one else being endangered. Had Marethari not made a mess of things, Audacity would have fixed the mirror - as it needed to do in order to escape - and then gotten killed by Hawke.

Possibly only after possessing Merrill first, but that was a sacrifice she was prepared to make from the beginning.

[PARAGON87]

Merrill is the quintessential example of the phrase: "The road the Hell is paved with good intentions."

Really her whole story I have to say was the best written, and had the most surprising (not to mention the most tragic) part of DA2.

But really the tragedy of her story is probably why I won't recruit her in my next DA2 playthrough; Hawke has had enough tragedy in his/her life.

Modifié par PARAGON87, 23 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[Addai]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Morrigan was also at the very least as clueless as Merrill when it came to other people; she just gets a pass because she was clueless in the "toubled cool kid" way rather than the "dork" way. That's what I was referring to with the naivete comment.

As for Merrill's knowledge of the mirror, we may not know exactly how extensive it was, but we do know that her plan to fix it was entirely viable. People keep talking about how she "trusted" or "was tricked by" a demon, but this is entirely untrue: everything Merrill did up to the point of going to meet Audacity again went according to her plans, and with no one else being endangered. Had Marethari not made a mess of things, Audacity would have fixed the mirror - as it needed to do in order to escape - and then gotten killed by Hawke.

Possibly only after possessing Merrill first, but that was a sacrifice she was prepared to make from the beginning.

Morrigan would pwn Merrill in every conceivable way.  No contest.

And she can't say that the eluvian wouldn't harm anyone.  She's taking a demon's word for that.  There's no guarantee the demon would fix the mirror, either, or leave Merrill alone afterward.

[Vhalkyrie]

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 02:07 .

[Gorthaur X]

The Eluvian was a gateway between realms, remember? Ours, the Fade, even worlds beyond the Fade. That's why Audacity wanted Merrill to complete the mirror, and why it was entirely sincere in its promises to help her: it needed to fix the Eluvian just as badly as Merrill did.

We don't know what would have happened once Merrill actually used the mirror. Maybe she would have been possessed and then killed by Hawke. Maybe Audacity would have entered our world in its true, demonic form, like the Baroness of Blackmarsh did, and then gotten killed by Hawke (or Sandal, assuming he tried that **** in the Hawke Estate). Maybe Merrill might even have survived.

Even the worst case scenario was something Merrill consciously deemed to be an acceptable risk, and all of them were better than what happened after the Keeper's involvement.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 23 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Vhalkyrie]

A sincere demon? Going to have to borrow some lines out of DA2.

Merrill: Yes, I used blood magic. I needed it to cleanse the mirror.
Hawke: I've never heard of blood magic 'cleansing' anything before.
Fenris: Neither have I.

All we know is Merrill was susceptible to the guile of 'audacity'. She was 'audacious' in thinking she could trick or outsmart the demon. She was 'audacious' in thinking she knew better than the Keeper.  She already lost that battle with the temptation of Audacity when she walked away from her clan. The gateway 'Audacity' needed was for Merrill to complete the task. Audacity was also proven to be a very powerful demon, tougher than a pride demon.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Gorthaur X]

I didn't say anything about the demon being sincere. Neither did Merrill, in-game.

The demon was, however, an entity whose interests were concurrent with Merrill's, up to a point: both of them did want to restore the Eluvian.

Merrill had no illusions about the demon's "sincerity" beyond that point, and I'm not sure why you would even try to claim otherwise when the game hammers the point down with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer: Merrill brought Hawke with her as insurance precisely because she didn't trust the demon to be benign or harmless.

As for blood magic, there is nothing in the game to suggest that it is anything more than a tool that can be used for good or ill - and despite Chantry propaganda, it is used for both in the game. To continue with the cleaning analogy, the substances I use to cleanse my floors or unclog my shower drain would surely kill me if I used them for cooking, but that doesn't mean they're either good or evil in and of themselves. They're just tools that have certain appropriate uses.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Those who think Merrill was stupid must have been playing a different version of DA2 than I played.

[Vhalkyrie]

Gorthaur X wrote...

I didn't say anything about the demon being sincere. Neither did Merrill, in-game.

Gorthaur X wrote...

The Eluvian was a gateway
between realms, remember? Ours, the Fade, even worlds beyond the Fade.
That's why Audacity wanted Merrill to complete the mirror, and why it
was entirely sincere in its promises to help her: it needed to fix the Eluvian just as badly as Merrill did.

Huh?  Contradictory.

As for blood magic, there is nothing in the game to suggest that it is
anything more than a tool that can be used for good or ill - and despite
Chantry propaganda, it is used for both in the game. To continue
with the cleaning analogy, the substances I use to cleanse my floors or
unclog my shower drain would surely kill me if I used them for cooking,
but that doesn't mean they're either good or evil in and of themselves.
They're just tools that have certain appropriate uses.

Justification of blood magic in this exact manner is why I ended up siding with Fenris and the Templars. 

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 02:54 .

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Sure "wit" but Merrill is a tank hard to take down:whistle:.

[Gorthaur X]

Hah. Well, that's what I get for posting at 5 AM when I can't sleep. Nevertheless, I trust you got my point.

As for blood magic, you do realize that the Chantry and the Templars use blood magic themselves: that's what the phylacteries are. If you believe that there can never be a good use for blood magic, you should be against the Templars. And those evil, evil Grey Wardens, of course.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 23 mars 2011 - 03:07 .

[Clover Rider]

 Some blood magic is fine and some is bad so far Merrill has been the only good blood mage so far imo=].

[Vhalkyrie]

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Sure "wit" but Merrill is a tank hard to take down:whistle:.

I'll go 'all in' betting on Morrigan. 

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Sure "wit" but Merrill is a tank hard to take down:whistle:.

I'll go 'all in' on Morrigan. 

Tanks win all the time Umbreon is better than Espeon=].

[Vhalkyrie]

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Sure "wit" but Merrill is a tank hard to take down:whistle:.

I'll go 'all in' on Morrigan. 

Tanks win all the time Umbreon is better than Espeon=].

Strange turn this thread has taken, but ok.  Let's explore.  Merrill as a tank is remedied with a simple 'dispel magic' and 'affliction hex'.

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The demon that was attempting to possess Merrill through the mirror was "Audacity". Think about it.

And yea...Morrigan versus Merrill? Shortest deathmatch evah.  In either wit or mortal combat.

Sure "wit" but Merrill is a tank hard to take down:whistle:.

I'll go 'all in' on Morrigan. 

Tanks win all the time Umbreon is better than Espeon=].

Strange turn this thread has taken, but ok.  Let's explore.  Merrill as a tank is remedied with a simple 'dispel magic' and 'affliction hex'.

And DA2 has better health items so let us not get into this:innocent:.

Modifié par Some Geth, 23 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Hah. Well, that's what I get for posting at 5 AM when I can't sleep. Nevertheless, I trust you got my point.

As for blood magic, you do realize that the Chantry and the Templars use blood magic themselves: that's what the phylacteries are. If you believe that there can never be a good use for blood magic, you should be against the Templars. And those evil, evil Grey Wardens, of course.

As Fenris states many times, in the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic is a necessity in order to have power and stay in power.  Using your own blood isn't enough.  Vast numbers of elven slaves are drained of their blood in order to provide that power.

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

The moral of DA2, as I read it is, those with power will use whatever means they can to achieve more power.  Orsino used blood magic to enhance his powers.  Meredith sought a lyrium artifact to give her an edge over the mages.  It's a vicious cycle.  The Tevinter Imperium sounds like a terrible place, and the teachings of Andraste to end the brutal rule of the Tevinters are falling apart.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Gorthaur X wrote...

Hah. Well, that's what I get for posting at 5 AM when I can't sleep. Nevertheless, I trust you got my point.

As for blood magic, you do realize that the Chantry and the Templars use blood magic themselves: that's what the phylacteries are. If you believe that there can never be a good use for blood magic, you should be against the Templars. And those evil, evil Grey Wardens, of course.

As Fenris states many times, in the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic is a necessity in order to have power and stay in power.  Using your own blood isn't enough.  Vast numbers of elven slaves are drained of their blood in order to provide that power.

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for power.  They are used like a DNA match.

The moral of DA2, as I read it is, those with power will use whatever means they can to achieve more power.  Orsino used blood magic to enhance his powers.  Meredith sought a lyrium artifact to give her an edge over the mages.  It's a vicious cycle.  The Tevinter Imperium sounds like a terrible place, and the teachings of Andraste to end the brutal rule of the Tevinters are falling apart.

And that is why Merrill is the only good blood mageB).

Modifié par Some Geth, 23 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Some Geth wrote...
And DA2 has better health items so let us not get into this:innocent:.

I had more problems with healing than in DAO.  Guzzled potions like a lush.  Another reason I never brought Merrill along, and was highly annoyed they took my healer away (Bethany) and I was stuck with Anders.

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
And DA2 has better health items so let us not get into this:innocent:.

I had more problems with healing than in DAO.  Guzzled potions like a lush.  Another reason I never brought Merrill along, and was highly annoyed they took my healer away (Bethany) and I was stuck with Anders.

it's only bad if you don't have the money and Merrill for me tanks so well I did not need any healer:P.