323 réponses à ce sujet

[Vhalkyrie]

And that is why Merrill is the only good blood mageB).

How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

[Clover Rider]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

And that is why Merrill is the only good blood mageB).

How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

It was not for power but for the history to help her people not anything evil about that:innocent:.

[Addai]

I don't think Merrill is evil. Just kind of dippy.

[Vhalkyrie]

Some Geth wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

And that is why Merrill is the only good blood mageB).

How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

It was not for power but for the history to help her people not anything evil about that:innocent:.

No?  Then how is it that a demon named Audacity managed to be the one to tempt her with an offer she couldn't refuse?  As we know, demons of the fade prey on a mage's weaknesses.

After the Keeper dies, Merrill finally realizes she lost everything.  The only moment of the game when I liked her.  She could have been smart like Morrigan and sought out the Dalish book.  Heck, she could have sought out Morrigan.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Gorthaur X]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

As Fenris states many times, in the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic is a necessity in order to have power and stay in power.  Using your own blood isn't enough.  Vast numbers of elven slaves are drained of their blood in order to provide that power.

That only shows that blood magic can be used in a way that causes great harm. It doesn't show that it inevitably will cause great harm under any and all circumstances.

I could make napalm with some soap and gasoline. Some people do, and then use that napalm to hurt others.

Is washing up therefore inherently unethical, and a step away from being a war criminal?

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

So now you're saying that certain kinds of blood magic aren't that bad? See, you're not that far from Merrill, yourself.

After the Keeper dies, Merrill finally realizes she lost
everything.  The only moment of the game when I liked her.  She could
have been smart like Morrigan and sought out the Dalish book.  Heck, she
could have sought out Morrigan.

The same Morrigan who used blood magic to capture the soul of a god, and whose primary motivation for everything she did was power?

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 23 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

People read too much into small things, take too much certainty in unclear statements, and presume too much.

And no, that's not a comment on Merrill.



As for the book, well, did Merrill even know about it, or have any way of knowing about it?

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

As Fenris states many times, in the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic is a necessity in order to have power and stay in power.  Using your own blood isn't enough.  Vast numbers of elven slaves are drained of their blood in order to provide that power.

That only shows that blood magic can be used in a way that causes great harm. It doesn't show that it inevitably will cause great harm under any and all circumstances.

I could make napalm with some soap and gasoline. Some people do, and then use that napalm to hurt others.

Is washing up therefore inherently unethical, and a step away from being a war criminal?

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

So now you're saying that certain kinds of blood magic aren't that bad? See, you're not that far from Merrill, yourself.

Blood magic can be no more inherently evil than a hammer is.  A hammer can be used to the evil ends of murdering someone, or it can be used as a tool to build a house.  That doesn't make the hammer wicked.

[Dr. Nexas]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

You mean the ability to find a person anywhere, potentially against their will, isn't a form of power?

Modifié par Dr. Nexas, 23 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

As Fenris states many times, in the Tevinter Imperium, blood magic is a necessity in order to have power and stay in power.  Using your own blood isn't enough.  Vast numbers of elven slaves are drained of their blood in order to provide that power.

That only shows that blood magic can be used in a way that causes great harm. It doesn't show that it inevitably will cause great harm under any and all circumstances.

I could make napalm with some soap and gasoline. Some people do, and then use that napalm to hurt others.

Is washing up therefore inherently unethical, and a step away from being a war criminal?

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

So now you're saying that certain kinds of blood magic aren't that bad? See, you're not that far from Merrill, yourself.

When mages rule themselves unchecked, blood magic is an inevitability.  That is what is being warned against.

Errr...generally, washing yourself with soap and gasoline is not recommended.  Napalm probably isn't the best example.  There is no inherent beneficial use for creating napalm.  Napalm's purpose is to kill mass quantities of people.  If someone is inclined to make napalm or even experiment with it, then yes, they are a step away from being a war criminal.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Yes, the phylacteries are a type of blood magic.  However, they are not used as a power source for magic.  They are used like a DNA match.

You mean the ability to find a person anywhere, potentially against their will, isn't a form of power?

It's a balance of power.

[Gorthaur X]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

When mages rule themselves unchecked, blood magic is an inevitability.  That is what is being warned against.

Errr...generally, washing yourself with soap and gasoline is not recommended.  Napalm probably isn't the best example.

When people are allowed to wash themselves with soap and use gasoline to fill the tanks of their cars, napalm is an inevitability.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

When mages rule themselves unchecked, blood magic is an inevitability.  That is what is being warned against.

Errr...generally, washing yourself with soap and gasoline is not recommended.  Napalm probably isn't the best example.  There is no inherent beneficial use for creating napalm.  Napalm's purpose is to kill mass quantities of people.  If someone is inclined to make napalm or even experiment with it, then yes, they are a step away from being a war criminal.

First, this idea that use of incendiaries in war is in and of itself a war crime is silly in the extreme, regardless of what it's based on. 

Second, if someone is curious as to how napalm is made, there's nothing inherently wrong with a little research, or even a little experiment.  Many, many people know how napalm is made, it's not anything like a dangerous secret.

Third, blood magic seems to happen even when mages are ruled with an iron fist by those who hate them.  "Warring against it" doesn't seem to be doing much to prevent it. 

Fourth, blood magic in and of itself isn't malicious or evil.

Fifth, honestly, many of the arguments being made in favor of strict Templar control of mages are starting to remind me of the silliness and FUD directed against private ownership of firearms, with people being encouraged to live in the ignorant and unjustified fear that the presense of a firearm can randomly and instantly turn anyone into a raving mass murderer. 

[LobselVith8]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Merrill was cutesy, naive, and stupid.

I never saw her as stupid. Given her intellect about the Eluvian and magic, I don't see how you can sincerely call her stupid.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I couldn't find anything redeeming about her. She was exactly the kind of person I would have put in the Circle if there was the option.  She had vast, dangerous power, and little wisdom or good judgement to wield it.  We ended up 100% rivals, and I've never brought her on quests where I didn't have to.

She fights alongside Hawke, she advocates protecting mages, she approves of killing child murders, and she is willing to risk her life and soul for a chance that could benefit her people and restore a part of their culture, and we see how determined she is when she asks Hawke to accompany her and kill her if she loses control.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I can't figure out why she was ever the First.  Thank the old gods she never became Keeper.  She's not at all wise, nor a leader.  She can't convince anyone she is doing the right thing, no one will follow her.

Except for the people who don't share your opinion about her, of course.

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan would pwn Merrill in every conceivable way.  No contest.

Morrigan comments highly on the Dalish in Origins. "At least they have chosen freedom over subjugation. Better hardship and danger than slavery." Also, I'd imagine the Dalish mages ability to change shape would be of great interest to Morrigan (which is mentioned in the Dalish Warden conversation).

Addai67 wrote...

And she can't say that the eluvian wouldn't harm anyone.  She's taking a demon's word for that.  There's no guarantee the demon would fix the mirror, either, or leave Merrill alone afterward.

You don't know what precautions she would take if she believed it was going to work; neither do we because she never gets to restore it because the Keeper became an abomination.

[LobselVith8]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

And that is why Merrill is the only good blood mage.

How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

I don't see why Merrill should be precluded from using blood magic. Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn. If Merrill's goal was the restoration of an ancient device that might give the People answers about ancient Arlathan, possibly providing benefit and helping change their way of life for the better, why shouldn't Merrill take the chance? Her goal was to restore the Eluvian because it was a part of the history of her people in ancient Arlathan.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

No?  Then how is it that a demon named Audacity managed to be the one to tempt her with an offer she couldn't refuse?  As we know, demons of the fade prey on a mage's weaknesses.

The Keeper Marethari was possessed, not Merrill. I don't see why you claim the demon made an offer she couldn't refuse when Merrill didn't seem to deal with Audacity in several years since their initial conversation.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

After the Keeper dies, Merrill finally realizes she lost everything.  The only moment of the game when I liked her.  She could have been smart like Morrigan and sought out the Dalish book.  Heck, she could have sought out Morrigan.

Why should we assume Merrill knows anything about the book when the clans typically meet every ten years? There's never even a mention about the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, after all.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think Merrill is evil. Just kind of dippy.

She ressurected Flemeth. I don't see how anyone "dippy" could pull that off.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

When mages rule themselves unchecked, blood magic is an inevitability.  That is what is being warned against.

Yet we know there are free mages and apostates who don't resort to blood magic or become abominations, from Morrigan to Aneirin the Healer, so it's not really an inevitability for mages who rule themselves if it doesn't always happen.

[Rock Mu]

Anders sums it up perfectly when you head up the path to meet Merrill for the first time if he's in the party;

"All Dalish women are crazy in my experience...."

[Poison_Berrie]

Vhalkyrie wrote...
How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

Also makes blood magic seem not that bad. 

The problem with Blood magic is that 
1) It has the potential to allow you to control others. 
2) There is the potential of killing people for a blood mages blood magic. 
3) There's the potential of needing demons to learn it, since all text about it are considered forbidden. 

Seems the main issues is that Chantry likes to keep control over the mages and equates all bloodmages to Tevinter "mad" Magisters.

In truth blood magic is an alternative to lyrium, with bad PR and the established order against it kind of like Apostates.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

After the Keeper dies, Merrill finally realizes she lost everything.  The only moment of the game when I liked her.  She could have been smart like Morrigan and sought out the Dalish book.  Heck, she could have sought out Morrigan.

Why should we assume Merrill knows anything about the book when the clans typically meet every ten years? There's never even a mention about the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, after all.

Indeed.  And I'm still trying to figure out how she's supposed to have any idea who or what or where Morrigan is, or that she knows anything about the Eluvian...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...
How so?  Merrill used blood magic in order to achieve what she wanted.  She even states at one point, what she wanted to do would require a vast amount of lyrium.  She didn't have lyrium, so she used blood.  Sounds like a means to an end rationalization.

Also makes blood magic seem not that bad. 

The problem with Blood magic is that 
1) It has the potential to allow you to control others. 
2) There is the potential of killing people for a blood mages blood magic. 
3) There's the potential of needing demons to learn it, since all text about it are considered forbidden. 

Seems the main issues is that Chantry likes to keep control over the mages and equates all bloodmages to Tevinter "mad" Magisters.

In truth blood magic is an alternative to lyrium, with bad PR and the established order against it kind of like Apostates.

That's been my conclusion about blood magic too.

[Dark-sider77]

Why do people think she is stupid because of her dealings with demons? If anything, she is one of the more intelligent and cautious mages who actually risks dealing with them. When she asks Hawke for help in her act 3 quest she fully understands that she might be possessed which is why she takes precautions.

Hawke and the other companions that go with her to sundermount basically fulfill the same role that the Templars do when a mage is subjected to the harrowing in the circle. If Hawke sees any sign of possession he/she is supposed to kill Merrill before the demon is able to react, if it works for the Templars I don't see why it wouldn't have worked for Merrill and Hawke. Merrill knew she may die, but she would have been killed before the demon had the chance to do any real damage.

Most other mages we see interact with demons aren't nearly as careful as Merrill was, they just make their deals and become a huge danger to those around them if they get possessed.

[Vhalkyrie]

Dark-sider77 wrote...
Hawke and the other companions that go with her to sundermount basically fulfill the same role that the Templars do when a mage is subjected to the harrowing in the circle. If Hawke sees any sign of possession he/she is supposed to kill Merrill before the demon is able to react, if it works for the Templars I don't see why it wouldn't have worked for Merrill and Hawke. Merrill knew she may die, but she would have been killed before the demon had the chance to do any real damage.

Ironic.  So you are agreeing Templars are necessary in order to halt demon possessions.

It is foolish to deal with demons.  There isn't an instance where dealing with demons has a good outcome.  Those who deal with demons always think they can gain the upperhand.  Merrill thought she could do the same, and it cost her clan a Keeper.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Ironic.  So you are agreeing Templars are necessary in order to halt demon possessions.

I don't think Kirkwall is such a great reference for the templars halting abominations, or the Ferelden Circle now that I remember why Uldred started a revolution...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

It is foolish to deal with demons.  There isn't an instance where dealing with demons has a good outcome.  Those who deal with demons always think they can gain the upperhand.

I think you're forgetting DA:O. The Hero of Ferelden can coerce a demon into providing knowledge about blood magic. There's also DA2, where Merrill can use a summoned demon to destroy a barrier.

[Dark-sider77]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Dark-sider77 wrote...
Hawke and the other companions that go with her to sundermount basically fulfill the same role that the Templars do when a mage is subjected to the harrowing in the circle. If Hawke sees any sign of possession he/she is supposed to kill Merrill before the demon is able to react, if it works for the Templars I don't see why it wouldn't have worked for Merrill and Hawke. Merrill knew she may die, but she would have been killed before the demon had the chance to do any real damage.

Ironic.  So you are agreeing Templars are necessary in order to halt demon possessions.

Not exactly, i am saying the Templars are good at slaying abominations, its a big part of their job after all. Merrill's plan is fairly prudent because it is similar to how Templars stop an abomination at a failed harrowing.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

It is foolish to deal with demons.  There isn't an instance where dealing with demons has a good outcome.  Those who deal with demons always think they can gain the upperhand.  Merrill thought she could do the same, and it cost her clan a Keeper.

A subordinate is never vicariously liable for the actions of her superior. There is no such principle as respondeat inferior. Try again.