323 réponses à ce sujet

[Emperor Iaius I]

Addai: She knew the mirror was corrupt. That's why she learned blood magic: to purify it. Remember that the mirror took Tamlen and poisoned the Warden because of the taint. She got rid of it.

As far as mugging goes, remember that as the First, she's a bit like a cultural anthropologist. She just found the concept intriguing. They have bandits, but banditry is different.

Sarah: Demons keep their deals. They just require something else in exchange: the demon would have restored the mirror, and then it would have asked to become freed in exchange. That might involve possessing Merrill, and it's likely that Merrill would have assured that because she didn't want somebody else to get hurt in her place. That's why she asked Hawke to kill her if it happened.

She already knew it would. Marethari didn't know this, and didn't trust her. Marethari was an idiot. The blame lies squarely at her feet. She is a poor Keeper because she is content to let her clan suffer because of her inability to let Merrill go for the good of all the Dalish.

[nodice]

Merrill is the one companion I can't stand a bit. I don't even think she's cute, just annoying. Everyone risks everything for her, bad **** happens and she just continues being a moron.

If only she WAS 16. But she's not, right? Romancing her would be creepy if she was. She's just a very very self-centered and kinda dumb.

Modifié par nodice, 18 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

The only thing she wants is to save her people, and she's willing to sacrifice her life for it, and this makes her self-centered?

Okay.

[nodice]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The only thing she wants is to save her people, and she's willing to sacrifice her life for it, and this makes her self-centered?

Okay.

She wants to save the elven culture maybe, but her people for real, no.

[draken-heart]

 i understand that her use of blood magic to fix the mirror that killed her friends (potential dalish elf warden and tamlen) was her wanting to help her people, but she could have found another way to do that, and that is what the rivalry path with her is for, to prove to her that dealing with demons and learning blood magic, even with the best intentions, can lead to more problems than its worth. at the end, she agree with you and breaks the mirror, giving up on blood magic and helping her people with the mirror.

that said, merrill rivalry to me is more giving merrill a nudge in the right direction

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Addai: She knew the mirror was corrupt. That's why she learned blood magic: to purify it. Remember that the mirror took Tamlen and poisoned the Warden because of the taint. She got rid of it.

She knows for crap about the eluvian except that it kills and corrupts.  She's just going to believe a demon that it's purified and safe?  How stupid is that?

As far as mugging goes, remember that as the First, she's a bit like a cultural anthropologist. She just found the concept intriguing. They have bandits, but banditry is different.

LOL No, sorry, I don't buy it.  The concept of violent robbery is not that mystifying no matter what culture you come from.  I think Merrill is just on her own planet.

Sarah: Demons keep their deals.

Since when?  Some of them do, some of them don't- ask Avernus. 

[MasterSamson88]

I think she's just being sarcastic about the mugging thing.

[Addai]

nodice wrote...
If only she WAS 16. But she's not, right? Romancing her would be creepy if she was. She's just a very very self-centered and kinda dumb.

Yeah, agreed.  She is not young and foolish.  As keeper's first she would have been chosen and trained to be more responsible than the usual, and that is how she comes across in Origins.  Someone hit her with a stupid stick on the way to the Free Marches.

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

nodice wrote...
If only she WAS 16. But she's not, right? Romancing her would be creepy if she was. She's just a very very self-centered and kinda dumb.

Yeah, agreed.  She is not young and foolish.  As keeper's first she would have been chosen and trained to be more responsible than the usual, and that is how she comes across in Origins.  Someone hit her with a stupid stick on the way to the Free Marches.

Though I would also raise you see next to nothing of her personality in Origins, nor does she actually talk much aside from things about history.

[Addai]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

nodice wrote...
If only she WAS 16. But she's not, right? Romancing her would be creepy if she was. She's just a very very self-centered and kinda dumb.

Yeah, agreed.  She is not young and foolish.  As keeper's first she would have been chosen and trained to be more responsible than the usual, and that is how she comes across in Origins.  Someone hit her with a stupid stick on the way to the Free Marches.

Though I would also raise you see next to nothing of her personality in Origins, nor does she actually talk much aside from things about history.

If you don't lie to her about Fenarel or don't have the Coercion to back it up, she makes you go back to the Keeper to get permission.  She's also all about "quit fooling around, we've got this job to do."  It's quite a different impression.

[Emperor Iaius I]

nodice: Do you think her people are better served as refugees and/or slaves? Or more properly posed, in what way will the one not lead to the other?

draken heart: Sure, she could have found another way. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't have chosen the path that she did. The rivalry path dissuades her from blood magic, but the friendship path leads her to realize that the Keeper never understood what she was doing. They're both geared to represent plausibly good outcomes for the type of character that would propose either.

That's not evidence of either perspective being right. More to the point, I've already acknowledged that blood magic is risky if used improperly: the real question is the "than its worth" part of your assessment. That's a proposition, and it's a bit like begging the question to say that blood magic is a bigger problem than it's worth because we have to examine what is, in fact, the value behind what she's doing.

Addai: I'm going to presume she knows more about it than you do, given that she's described as a master of Keeper lore and all. Demons have nothing to do with the taint: having the mirror turn somebody into a darkspawn is not what the demon has in mind: the demon wants to be free, it wants to experience the mortal world. It can't do that to a darkspawn.

As far as mugging: I'm terribly sorry that you don't buy it, but I'm disinclined to accept your fiat that violent robbery is not that mystifying to every culture. Want to provide a stronger basis for it than "I disagree therefore she's an idiot" ? Are you, perhaps, a cosmopolitan globe-trotter who can discourse to us at length about how violent robbery isn't that mystifying? Just because a view doesn't make sense to you don't mean it's nonsense: that's an astonishingly limited way of looking at things.

And--as that other fellow points out--there is a possibility she was making a joke. It's generally not best to operate from the premise that a person is an idiot and then interpret everything they say in that particular light. It's probably a better maxim of construction to construe said comments in the light that makes the most sense: in other words, give her the benefit of the doubt.

"Since when? Some of them do, some of them don't- ask Avernus. "

Avernus made no deals: he just summoned them. He was sloppy, and he paid for it.When demons make pacts, they hold to them: it's a trope that DA's adopted.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 18 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

nodice wrote...
If only she WAS 16. But she's not, right? Romancing her would be creepy if she was. She's just a very very self-centered and kinda dumb.

Yeah, agreed.  She is not young and foolish.  As keeper's first she would have been chosen and trained to be more responsible than the usual, and that is how she comes across in Origins.  Someone hit her with a stupid stick on the way to the Free Marches.

Though I would also raise you see next to nothing of her personality in Origins, nor does she actually talk much aside from things about history.

If you don't lie to her about Fenarel or don't have the Coercion to back it up, she makes you go back to the Keeper to get permission.  She's also all about "quit fooling around, we've got this job to do."  It's quite a different impression.

Honestly, she was also a sort of cookie cutter character in Origins. Simply there to push the Dalish origin forward. If we would have had the same Merrill from Origins in DA2 she would have been pretty incredibly boring I think.

I think this also has a lot to do with perception as well maybe. I think she's pretty intelligent frankly, though she's wrapped up in her own big quest so that clouds her judgment sometimes. She seems to be fully aware of what she's doing but she's willing to put herself at risk to try and achieve what she wants.

But then I hear a lot of people just say she's stupid and leave it at that. So I guess it's all relative. 

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Addai: I'm going to presume she knows more about it than you do, given that she's described as a master of Keeper lore and all.

Marethari is pretty knowledgeable and she has no clue about magic mirrors when you find one in Origins.
 

Demons have nothing to do with the taint: having the mirror turn somebody into a darkspawn is not what the demon has in mind: the demon wants to be free, it wants to experience the mortal world. It can't do that to a darkspawn.

Demons also lie to get what they want.

As far as mugging: I'm terribly sorry that you don't buy it, but I'm disinclined to accept your fiat that violent robbery is not that mystifying to every culture. Want to provide a stronger basis for it than "I disagree therefore she's an idiot" ? Are you, perhaps, a cosmopolitan globe-trotter who can discourse to us at length about how violent robbery isn't that mystifying? Just because a view doesn't make sense to you don't mean it's nonsense: that's an astonishingly limited way of looking at things.

As a point of fact I have traveled quite a bit and lived in several countries, but I'd prefer not to make this personal.  If the Dalish were as idiotic as that, perhaps they would deserve their fate.  I can buy what someone else said, that she was just making a silly joke.

Avernus made no deals: he just summoned them. He was sloppy, and he paid for it.When demons make pacts, they hold to them: it's a trope that DA's adopted.

I know of no lore that says that demons are bound by anything but themselves and the limitations of the Fade.  The fact that you see several demons making deals doesn't say that they all honor them- that's an interpretation and might or might not be valid.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2011 - 06:38 .

[draken-heart]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

nodice: Do you think her people are better served as refugees and/or slaves? Or more properly posed, in what way will the one not lead to the other?

draken heart: Sure, she could have found another way. That doesn't mean that she shouldn't have chosen the path that she did. The rivalry path dissuades her from blood magic, but the friendship path leads her to realize that the Keeper never understood what she was doing. They're both geared to represent plausibly good outcomes for the type of character that would propose either.

That's not evidence of either perspective being right. More to the point, I've already acknowledged that blood magic is risky if used improperly: the real question is the "than its worth" part of your assessment. That's a proposition, and it's a bit like begging the question to say that blood magic is a bigger problem than it's worth because we have to examine what is, in fact, the value behind what she's doing.

Addai: I'm going to presume she knows more about it than you do, given that she's described as a master of Keeper lore and all. Demons have nothing to do with the taint: having the mirror turn somebody into a darkspawn is not what the demon has in mind: the demon wants to be free, it wants to experience the mortal world. It can't do that to a darkspawn.

As far as mugging: I'm terribly sorry that you don't buy it, but I'm disinclined to accept your fiat that violent robbery is not that mystifying to every culture. Want to provide a stronger basis for it than "I disagree therefore she's an idiot" ? Are you, perhaps, a cosmopolitan globe-trotter who can discourse to us at length about how violent robbery isn't that mystifying? Just because a view doesn't make sense to you don't mean it's nonsense: that's an astonishingly limited way of looking at things.

And--as that other fellow points out--there is a possibility she was making a joke. It's generally not best to operate from the premise that a person is an idiot and then interpret everything they say in that particular light. It's probably a better maxim of construction to construe said comments in the light that makes the most sense: in other words, give her the benefit of the doubt.

"Since when? Some of them do, some of them don't- ask Avernus. "

Avernus made no deals: he just summoned them. He was sloppy, and he paid for it.When demons make pacts, they hold to them: it's a trope that DA's adopted.

im saying that merrill should have weighed her options:  is the power she gains, which is enough to help her people, worth the potential of losing her life and the lives of those around her?

was just my opinion anyways, and you are allowed to have yourrs

[Emperor Iaius I]

Addai: That's the thing that bothers me, though. Marethari doesn't know much about it, and she doesn't want to know about it because she fears it. Merrill knows enough to know that it's worth looking into, and she's spent 7 years (at least) looking into it. Yet despite Marethari's lack of knowledge about it, she decides to step into it.

Yes, demons lie to get what they want. She acknowledged that. She accepted the risk, and she accounted for it. If worst came to worst and the demon had no intention of helping her, she would be possessed and Hawke would kill her. Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Nothing. If the demon helped her, and then possessed her? Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Dalish. If the demon helped her out of the goodness of its heart (lol), then nobody loses and everybody wins.

So, best case scenario, (excluding the stupid one), Merrill dies and the elves recover some of their heritage. Worst case, Merrill dies having tried to help the elves.

As a point of fact I have traveled quite a bit and lived in several countries, but I'd prefer not to make this personal. If the Dalish were as idiotic as that, perhaps they would deserve their fate. I can buy what someone else said, that she was just making a silly joke.

I'm glad you're well traveled and I commend you for it, but that was just one example of how one point of view shouldn't represent the universe of perspective views.Just as you say, it's not about you personally. As far as deserving the fate just for that, well, I generally hate the elves and even I think that's pretty harsh of you.

But let's go with the joke one because it's also a good policy to minimize the scope of disagreements.

I know of no lore that says that demons are bound by anything but themselves and the limitations of the Fade. The fact that you see several demons making deals doesn't say that they all honor them- that's an interpretation and might or might not be valid.

If you like. There's no requirement to take observance of the trope as unassailable fact, sure. I do feel, though, it's a reasonable assumption in light of what we know and the lack of even scanty evidence of the opposite (cf. the observation about many evil blood mages and the smaller number of non-corrupted mages like Merrill, the magisters, certain Wardens, etc., where there does exist contradictory evidence).

So I take it as prima facie evidence that demons honor their deals. It's a rebuttable presumption, and there's nothing to the contrary.

But it's still a presumption. So ok, you don't accept the presumption. What now? Well, again, we go back to the worst and best case scenarios: Merrill accounted for that possibility. The worst that happens is that Merrill dies. She's ok with that.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 18 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[nodice]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

nodice: Do you think her people are better served as refugees and/or slaves? Or more properly posed, in what way will the one not lead to the other?

How is this exactly connected to the ****ing around with a demon thing?

I think it tells a lot that the only way to avoid slaughtering the whole clan is to take the blame for Merrill. Even if Hawke tries to warn and forbid Merrill the whole time knowing it'll go badly (as it does).

[Emperor Iaius I]

So Hawke told her "if you go down this path, Marethari will be an idiot?" How is that related at all to Merrill? How is that her fault? Hawke takes the blame for Merrill, and Merrill takes the blame for Marethari, who apparently gets to act without regard to consequences? Must be nice to be a Keeper, I guess, you get to blame other people for your mistakes.

Merrill never got the chance to try. She never got the chance to do it. She took precautions. Marethari was a hasty idiot who didn't even tell anybody what she did--what if Marethari failed to keep the demon in check? Whoops! But that's ok: let's give her a blank check.

It's silly.

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Addai: That's the thing that bothers me, though. Marethari doesn't know much about it, and she doesn't want to know about it because she fears it. Merrill knows enough to know that it's worth looking into, and she's spent 7 years (at least) looking into it. Yet despite Marethari's lack of knowledge about it, she decides to step into it.

Marethari does want to study it, when she first hears about it in Origins.  However she has the sense to take Duncan's warning seriously and to realize that moving the clan takes priority.  She only involves herself in it again after Merrill forces her hand.

Yes, demons lie to get what they want. She acknowledged that. She accepted the risk, and she accounted for it. If worst came to worst and the demon had no intention of helping her, she would be possessed and Hawke would kill her. Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Nothing. If the demon helped her, and then possessed her? Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Dalish. If the demon helped her out of the goodness of its heart (lol), then nobody loses and everybody wins.

She made her deal before Hawke comes along, or am I not understanding what you're getting at??

Also she knows how dangerous the eluvian can be, and that messing with it endangers not only herself but the entire clan.  If she doesn't know that, then she really is incredibly stupid and we come back around to that.

I'm glad you're well traveled and I commend you for it, but that was just one example of how one point of view shouldn't represent the universe of perspective views.Just as you say, it's not about you personally. As far as deserving the fate just for that, well, I generally hate the elves and even I think that's pretty harsh of you.

I don't actually think they're that stupid as a people.  I certainly never assumed my Mahariel Wardens to be.  It frustrates me to see them portrayed as idiots, though.  I was hoping for a stronger portrayal in DA2, but maybe I've just had my own idea of them and should accept they really are a naive and pigheaded people who are succumbing to Thedas Darwinism.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Addai:

Marethari does want to study it, when she first hears about it in Origins. However she has the sense to take Duncan's warning seriously and to realize that moving the clan takes priority. She only involves herself in it again after Merrill forces her hand.

Yeah. Because it was tainted by darkspawn. That particular issue was solved, though. I'm not sure I accept that Merrill forced her hand: Merrill had a backup plan, Marethari did not. Taking in the demon was an inexcusable risk on her part.

It's telling, I think. Marethari thinks she was protecting Merrill. In reality, she was corrupted by a Pride Demon.

She made her deal before Hawke comes along, or am I not understanding what you're getting at??

Well, yes, at first she wanted Marethari to be the one to do it, but she was unwilling. She was stuck and unable to proceed further, and it wasn't until she broached the subject with Hawke that she continued with it, now that she had someone to be the safeguard.

Also she knows how dangerous the eluvian can be, and that messing with it endangers not only herself but the entire clan. If she doesn't know that, then she really is incredibly stupid and we come back around to that.

How is it a threat to the entire clan if the demon within is killed by Hawke?

Moreover, she expected her clan to leave--and it should have, YEARS ago. The demon and eluvian cannot threaten them if they're not there.

I don't actually think they're that stupid as a people. I certainly never assumed my Mahariel Wardens to be. It frustrates me to see them portrayed as idiots, though. I was hoping for a stronger portrayal in DA2, but maybe I've just had my own idea of them and should accept they really are a naive and pigheaded people who are succumbing to Thedas Darwinism.

Heh. Well, I'm not going to defend the Dalish as a people. I think they're idiots too. Merrill's the only smart one out of the lot. Moreover, I say their naivete and pigheadedness relates to not letting Merrill do what she needed to do.

Anyway, though we seem to disagree, I am enjoying this discussion. No hard feelings, yes?

[congealeddgtllvr]

Addai67 wrote...

Yes, demons lie to get what they want. She acknowledged that. She accepted the risk, and she accounted for it. If worst came to worst and the demon had no intention of helping her, she would be possessed and Hawke would kill her. Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Nothing. If the demon helped her, and then possessed her? Net harm? Merrill. Net gain? Dalish. If the demon helped her out of the goodness of its heart (lol), then nobody loses and everybody wins.

She made her deal before Hawke comes along, or am I not understanding what you're getting at??

Also she knows how dangerous the eluvian can be, and that messing with it endangers not only herself but the entire clan.  If she doesn't know that, then she really is incredibly stupid and we come back around to that.

I think calling Merrill stupid is legitimate but I think the better word is arrogant.  She's actually less stupid and naive than Anders despite appearances.  There is a banter between the two where she says she is sorry for him.  He starts berating her telling her that this could be her.  She responds with: "Anders, there's no such thing as a good spirit, there never was.  All spirits are dangerous.  I understood that.  I'm sorry that you didn't."  It's one of the few times in the game you get to see her edge come out a little bit.

This shows that she actually does understand what she is doing and simply believes that when the time comes to collect she can either outsmart or defeat her demon in some way.  Arrogant.

This is why I like the rivalmance much better than the friend romance.  If you romance her as a friend she continues to think she is invincible and that the keeper was stupid to do what she did.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 18 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[nodice]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

So Hawke told her "if you go down this path, Marethari will be an idiot?" How is that related at all to Merrill? How is that her fault? Hawke takes the blame for Merrill, and Merrill takes the blame for Marethari, who apparently gets to act without regard to consequences? Must be nice to be a Keeper, I guess, you get to blame other people for your mistakes.

Merrill never got the chance to try. She never got the chance to do it. She took precautions. Marethari was a hasty idiot who didn't even tell anybody what she did--what if Marethari failed to keep the demon in check? Whoops! But that's ok: let's give her a blank check.

It's silly.

Excuse me? Marethari was trying to protect Merrill, because she knew what the demon wanted to do. How was that idiotic? I'm not at all convinced Merrill could have handled the demon any better. This is a Connor-Isolde-situation. The mother (figure) dies for the mistakes of the child. Or a child-like adult. Marethari must have known Merrill so well she knew for sure she'd come back and mess with the demon. Otherwise why would have she sacrificed herself.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

So Hawke told her "if you go down this path, Marethari will be an idiot?" How is that related at all to Merrill? How is that her fault? Hawke takes the blame for Merrill, and Merrill takes the blame for Marethari, who apparently gets to act without regard to consequences? Must be nice to be a Keeper, I guess, you get to blame other people for your mistakes.

Merrill never got the chance to try. She never got the chance to do it. She took precautions. Marethari was a hasty idiot who didn't even tell anybody what she did--what if Marethari failed to keep the demon in check? Whoops! But that's ok: let's give her a blank check.

It's silly.

But we'll never know if Merrill could have outsmarted the demon will we?  These things usually end badly.  I'm glad Marethari did what she did; it means I get to keep having Merrill with me (even though Varric says I'm with Isabella meh.)

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Heh. Well, I'm not going to defend the Dalish as a people. I think they're idiots too. Merrill's the only smart one out of the lot. Moreover, I say their naivete and pigheadedness relates to not letting Merrill do what she needed to do.

Anyway, though we seem to disagree, I am enjoying this discussion. No hard feelings, yes?

Certainly, and I'm expressing myself very strongly but it's with the hope that someone can change my mind.  DA writers don't write jack plots and their characters are nuanced, I just at the moment see the situation in exact reverse as you do- that Marethari and the clan were using the better part of discretion and care for Merrill (despite casting her out) and it was Merrill who was reckless and dumb.  It doesn't help that in my game I had to kill the whole clan and that tore me up. 

[Emperor Iaius I]

nodice: Merrill would have sacrificed herself too: the difference is that she told somebody, so she could be killed and the demon thereby stopped. Marethari was reckless and told nobody until afterwards, because she felt she could trap the demon.

Marethari was deceived by pride--by the Pride Demon.

Addai: I guess that our different views pretty much encapsulate sthe friendship/rivalry difference, though. Depending on which you take, the game validates that angle and that view wins out. So it's a matter of whether you give her the benefit of the doubt or not: if you do, then you're right. If you don't . . . then you're right.



I just happen to like Merrill, and I like blood magic, and the game provides a ton of evidence to prove my point. But as you've demonstrated, if you dislike blood magic (or Merrill!), then you can get plenty of evidence for that too. Either way, there's a game path that supports the view.

So you disagree--but do you see where the point of view is coming from, at least, now?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 18 mars 2011 - 08:23 .

[Thiefy]

I never understood why no matter how nice my hawke was with her, i kept getting rivalry points. even when i supported her. =|