323 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

The might be a bug, because some people seem to get rivalry points with some companions no matter what they do.

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Addai: I guess that our different views pretty much encapsulate sthe friendship/rivalry difference, though. Depending on which you take, the game validates that angle and that view wins out. So it's a matter of whether you give her the benefit of the doubt or not: if you do, then you're right. If you don't . . . then you're right.



I just happen to like Merrill, and I like blood magic, and the game provides a ton of evidence to prove my point. But as you've demonstrated, if you dislike blood magic (or Merrill!), then you can get plenty of evidence for that too. Either way, there's a game path that supports the view.

So you disagree--but do you see where the point of view is coming from, at least, now?

Er, well I don't take the "blood magic is evil" view.  In fact my Hawke is a blood mage, which is one reason I didn't ever complete Merrill's rivalry/friendship path- because I didn't find her abilities very useful to my party so rarely took her anywhere.  My primary Mahariel is also one I made using the Dalish mage mod and she was a blood mage (I wrote out her story on my ff page if you're interested).

I would have been sympathetic to her goal if what she had wanted was survival related.  The elusive concept of "this mirror could help the elves restore our heritage" does not outweigh "this mirror worked us over and got people killed."  If she had had her back up against the wall and was fighting for the survival of the clan, that is something I could be sympathetic to.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2011 - 08:31 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Ah. Well, that could be part of it. Without hearing her feedback on the situation during companion banter, or being able to get the dialogue options that full friendship/romance gives, you're not getting a full picture of her motivations.

My Hawke is a blood mage as well, but I don't pick my party based on abilities (I don't play on Nightmare or anything like that) but rather, I look for interesting banter and/or who I prefer to have around. At first, I knew little enough about Merrill going into the game. I hate elves and I saw her as just another fanservice-y character, perhaps somebody geared towards people for whom Isabela is too much. But then I saw her use blood magic to open that magic barrier, and suddenly she became much more interesting.

In short time, she became my favorite RPG companion because her views are almost completely in tune with my own. Blood magic aside, I rather like the concept of restoring a lost civilization and seeing value in the past. Our past shows who and what we were, and we ought to remain rooted to it lest we lose something. Progress is one thing; forgetting is another. I'd probably like her a lot less if it were something desperate like survival. I like that she has this lofty, noble aspiration--what you call elusive. quicquid elusio ελυθαντα est.

As for your Dalish elf's story, sure, I wouldn't mind seeing it. Could you PM me a link?

[Dan-mac RI]

Merrill has an insatiable thirst for old knowledge. The Dalish seek to recover as much of the old knowledge as possible; this is how she believes she is saving her people. At some point, if new discoveries aren't made, if the knowledge stagnates, the Dalish will cease to exist. She is trying to recover culture.

It's another case of Anders. There are certainly other options to accomplish the same goal, but none are as immediate or direct as the path she took. The Eluvian would undoubtedly provide knowledge. Anders considered many options, it's why he waited so long. Merrill spent so much time on one path that she could consider no other options. This willful blindness is her tragic flaw. It's all classical tragic theater.

She recognized that the mirror had been a negative, but that goes into the risk/reward thing. The risk was her own life. The reward was lore that could help her people regain what they had lost, which was a lot. What would you do for all mankind to be immortal and have the talent of magic? That's what she believes the mirror may do. Also, because she is almost certain that only herself is in danger(by the time she tells you about the mirror, Hawke has killed a few dozen abominations) she continues.

Modifié par Dan-mac RI, 18 mars 2011 - 09:39 .

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Ah. Well, that could be part of it. Without hearing her feedback on the situation during companion banter, or being able to get the dialogue options that full friendship/romance gives, you're not getting a full picture of her motivations.

My Hawke is a blood mage as well, but I don't pick my party based on abilities (I don't play on Nightmare or anything like that) but rather, I look for interesting banter and/or who I prefer to have around. At first, I knew little enough about Merrill going into the game. I hate elves and I saw her as just another fanservice-y character, perhaps somebody geared towards people for whom Isabela is too much. But then I saw her use blood magic to open that magic barrier, and suddenly she became much more interesting.

Part of it is that I just don't find her that charming or endearing.  Actually she's kind of annoying.  So it's not just that I found her squish and not very useful.  I do plan to pursue her story more fully, probably whenever I get around to playing a male character, but I don't have much motivation to do so.  Hence why I'm fishing for input on the forums. 

In short time, she became my favorite RPG companion because her views are almost completely in tune with my own. Blood magic aside, I rather like the concept of restoring a lost civilization and seeing value in the past. Our past shows who and what we were, and we ought to remain rooted to it lest we lose something. Progress is one thing; forgetting is another. I'd probably like her a lot less if it were something desperate like survival. I like that she has this lofty, noble aspiration--what you call elusive. quicquid elusio ελυθαντα est.

I like it in principle, but not when it threatens the survival of your already struggling clan.  It's hard for me not to see her story through the eyes of my Mahariel, who I imagine would probably take the ironbark to her.

As for your Dalish elf's story, sure, I wouldn't mind seeing it. Could you PM me a link?

I'm at work currently and my work filter blocks ffnet, but if you follow the link in my signature, it's the Idun cycle and starts with Vir Assan.  The early stuff is rough, I was just fooling around with backstory and never intended for it to get out of hand. 

[Raiil]

I understand Merril completely. I, too, was once an immature teen girl who was pretty damn sure that I knew what I was getting into and that no one would be able to gainsay me and I'd prove them all wrong.


Maybe that's why I don't like her. Been there, done that, suffered the hormonal insanity and lived to tell the tale. Dealing with Merril is like dealing with my teenage cousins. I just want to pop them sometimes.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Dan-mac RI wrote...
This willful blindness is her tragic flaw. It's all classical tragic theater.

'Αμαρτια should not be translated as "tragic flaw." That's not what it means, and that's not how Aristotle used it. High hchools, universities, and theatre programs in general keep propogating this mistake and it's troublesome. Hamartia is an error: or in the Aristotelean sense, an error that begets a tragedy. It's less about a character and more about casuality: even determinism. That is the essence of Attic tragedy: for all human strivings, certain things are just meant to happen.

Anyway--aside from the hamartia (heh) and the assertion of blindness (a subjective disagreement), you're spot on.

Addai: Rock armor helps with the squish. Seriously, she's the toughest person in my party. Part of that might be that I respecc'd her since she doesn't need all that willpower anymore.

I'm actually considering another playthrough to explore her story in more detail, and to see more banter opportunities. I am completely enthralled. Perhaps, speaking of ff, I might elect to start a project I had considered working on: writing about how Merrill adjusts to human life. It was meant to be reflective and introspective, so perhaps it'd answer the concerns you have too.

See, I played a Cousland and a human mage. The latter was an anti-Circle blood mage anyway, and the former probably cares a bit about heritage.

Oh, signature links. I need to pay more attention. Thanks, I'll try and take a look.

[Rhostadt]

nodice wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

nodice: Do you think her people are better served as refugees and/or slaves? Or more properly posed, in what way will the one not lead to the other?

How is this exactly connected to the ****ing around with a demon thing?

I think it tells a lot that the only way to avoid slaughtering the whole clan is to take the blame for Merrill. Even if Hawke tries to warn and forbid Merrill the whole time knowing it'll go badly (as it does).

This is a misconception I keep seeing in these Merrill debate threads.  You don't spare the clan by having Hawke take responsibility for Marethari's death (i.e. lying), you actually promise the clan you'll take responsibility for making sure Merrill doesn't cause any more trouble with them.

Also, I'm going to repeat myself since everyone seemed to ignore it the first time: comments made by Merrill during other quests definitively show that she understands the dangers of what she's doing.  For example, she says something along the lines of, "It's dangerous to trust demons/spirits."  At one point, you can even consult with her about whether some mage is possessed.  All the evidence suggests that demonology, blood magic, and the eluvian are her areas of expertise, despite how ignorant she is about other things (an idiot savant if you will).  She understands, and is willing to take the risk upon herself.  She leaves the clan by her own choice.

Finally, any claims that Merrill is arrogant/stupid and overestimates her abilities to deal with demons is either completely false, or merely inconclusive.  We never get to see how her actions would have turned out, so we can't know either way for sure.  We already know for a fact that it's possible to do blood magic and summon demons without becoming an abomination, as the Tevinter Magisters are infamous for it.  So there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off too.

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Addai: Rock armor helps with the squish. Seriously, she's the toughest person in my party. Part of that might be that I respecc'd her since she doesn't need all that willpower anymore.

I'm actually considering another playthrough to explore her story in more detail, and to see more banter opportunities. I am completely enthralled. Perhaps, speaking of ff, I might elect to start a project I had considered working on: writing about how Merrill adjusts to human life. It was meant to be reflective and introspective, so perhaps it'd answer the concerns you have too.

Alright, I'm replaying my blood mage's game (I'm sort of stuck on her lol) and I'll keep Merrill in the party more often.  Though the friendship path will probably reinforce my notions of her foolishness. 

[Addai]

Rhostadt wrote...
Finally, any claims that Merrill is arrogant/stupid and overestimates her abilities to deal with demons is either completely false, or merely inconclusive.  We never get to see how her actions would have turned out, so we can't know either way for sure.  We already know for a fact that it's possible to do blood magic and summon demons without becoming an abomination, as the Tevinter Magisters are infamous for it.  So there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off too.

It's stupid to take the eluvian in and trust a demon's word that it's safe.  She can't know that, and doesn't even know how it works.  There's no way that Marethari's first could know about eluvians when Marethari herself didn't know anything about them prior to fleeing north.  Ariane's keeper didn't even know the word.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 01:26 .

[Clover Rider]

Modifié par Some Geth, 19 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Clover Rider]

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

[Maria Caliban]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...

wonky? giving her a 5 gold gift is -15 rivalry no matter your responces. Thats not wonky, thats god damn retarded. I am begining to loath every conversation in this hack job of a sequel. I cant even sell the gift. what a fking waste.

I gave her both gifts and did not get rivalry from either one. 

If you're on the rivalry path, gifts give rivalry points. If you're on the friendship path, they have friendship points. It's this way for all the companions.

[Mifune013]

If Merrill were to react like a normal person after her Personal Quest she would become unplayable for the rest of the game. She would just mope around and become a shut in for a few months, far after Hawke saved the day, and finally come back to her senses.

[Teemu733]

Merrill rivalmance was amazing.

[Cat Fancy]

Rhostadt wrote...

Finally, any claims that Merrill is arrogant/stupid and overestimates her abilities to deal with demons is either completely false, or merely inconclusive.  We never get to see how her actions would have turned out, so we can't know either way for sure.  We already know for a fact that it's possible to do blood magic and summon demons without becoming an abomination, as the Tevinter Magisters are infamous for it.  So there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off too.

What's inconclusive about Merrill falling for the Pride demon's offer in the fade? I think Marethari is just super-dumb and her behavior is baffling, but Merrill seems to have  taken quite a leap from "blood magic can be practiced safely" to "it is never a bad idea to consort with demons." Okay, this isn't true. She raises concerns about dealing with the Sloth demon in the fade, but only because they're untrustworthy, and not because of human sacrifice (maybe she just really believes that it's benign? still makes me question her wisdom). And she does recognize that she can and possibly will become an abomination, but I really don't see how that's only a danger to herself, as she seems her work is. It's entirely possible that the thing with the Pride demon and the mirror could've worked out, though. Maretheri, you are just the worst.

[Maria Caliban]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

'Αμαρτια should not be translated as "tragic flaw." That's not what it means, and that's not how Aristotle used it. High hchools, universities, and theatre programs in general keep propogating this mistake and it's troublesome. Hamartia is an error: or in the Aristotelean sense, an error that begets a tragedy. It's less about a character and more about casuality: even determinism. That is the essence of Attic tragedy: for all human strivings, certain things are just meant to happen.

classical theater is not the same as Greek classical theater.

High schools, universities, and theater programs "propagate this mistake" because it's not a mistake; it's a vital part of Western art, literature, and viewpoint.

In Greek theater, horrible and tragic things can happen to you through no fault of your own. You pissed off the wrong god. You were cursed before you were born. You did something that made sense at the time but turned out to be a horrible mistake. You were put into an impossible situation.

Then something called Christianity came along and dominated Western culture for about two millennia. It said that mankind's suffering was because of mankind's sin, and that God was just and righteous. Tragedy changed to suit this shift in conceptual landscape.

To paraphrase: The fault is not in the stars, but in ourselves.

That is classical tragedy and it is all about great people with fatal flaws. Modern tragedy is something like Requiem for a Dream or Death of a Salesman; small people with fatal flaws in a world is not caprious (Greek) or just and righteous (Christian) but indifferent.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[Spatchmo]

I like Merril but I have to take myself down the rivalry path with her everytime. The aggressive chat options often make you sound like a father figure talking to his child, which is pretty much how I view my Hawke / Merril relationship. I do her companion quest, but then I keep the item as the Keeper requests. Then for the quest to meet the pride demon I basically berate her the whole way up. After everything is finished she says, "You were right all along..." Yes. Yes, I was.

[Addai]

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

[Addai]

Spatchmo wrote...

I like Merril but I have to take myself down the rivalry path with her everytime. The aggressive chat options often make you sound like a father figure talking to his child, which is pretty much how I view my Hawke / Merril relationship.

Ugh... that's just...ugh.  I hope this is not while romancing her?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Spatchmo]

Addai67 wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

I like Merril but I have to take myself down the rivalry path with her everytime. The aggressive chat options often make you sound like a father figure talking to his child, which is pretty much how I view my Hawke / Merril relationship.

Ugh... that's just...ugh.  I hope this is not while romancing her?

Haha, oh god no, I won't romance her because of the whole blood magic thing. Also because I view her as a child. Not literally, just emotionally and mentally.

[Sarah1281]

I think this banter really explains my issues with Merrill.

Aveline: You're incredibly talented, Merrill. I can see you are meant for great things.
Merrill: Thank you!
Aveline: But, you're stupid.
Merrill: I'm sorry, what?
Aveline: Don't you think it would be better to work on where you are now instead of recreating old glory?
Merrill: No, no that's kind of the opposite of what I've been saying. I'm the stupid one? Whatever.

It's all well and good to want to preserve her heritage but she's choosing that over trying to make the lives of her people NOW better. Finding out more about their past could make them feel better about themselves, I guess, but is it REALLY more important than the well-being of the living Dalish which she seems to have abandoned?

Oh, and if Merrill actually meant that last line then that doesn't give me any more faith in her intelligence.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[MPSai]

Why is she a blood mage? Maybe to give her a conflicting character trait so she won't just be a cliche?

[Rhys1984]

I thought she was trying to bring back past knowledge to help her people now, to uncover lost secrets to assist in the present, through the mirror. It's somewhat consumed her however, the demon of pride may have niggled her mind somewhat in their first meeting, making her feel that this should be a priority and damn the opinions of her keeper.

But I think she is stubborn, naive, has conviction, power, love, all wrapped up in a big ball of shyness and wonder.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Rhostadt wrote...

Finally, any claims that Merrill is arrogant/stupid and overestimates her abilities to deal with demons is either completely false, or merely inconclusive.  We never get to see how her actions would have turned out, so we can't know either way for sure.  We already know for a fact that it's possible to do blood magic and summon demons without becoming an abomination, as the Tevinter Magisters are infamous for it.  So there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off too.

Wrong.  The fact that it is possible does not equal "there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off."  It equals that it is possible (and extremely extremely rare in modern times).  

So, what evidence do we have as to whether or not she could have pulled it off?  Well, she is successfully tricked by a pride demon in the fade.  When she talks to you later she says she shouldn't have screwed up because really she knows what she's doing with spirits really no really.  So while you're right that we'll never know, I see no reason to believe that she could have pulled it off.