323 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhostadt]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...
 (and extremely extremely rare in modern times).  

Now you're making stuff up.

So, what evidence do we have as to whether or not she could have pulled it off?

None whatsoever, for either case, that's the point.

Well, she is successfully tricked by a pride demon in the fade.

As near as I can tell, every companion cab be tricked by a demon in that sequence (with the seeming exception of Justice).  So that's not a very strong argument.

When she talks to you later she says she shouldn't have screwed up because really she knows what she's doing with spirits really no really.

That's not what she says.

 So while you're right that we'll never know, I see no reason to believe that she could have pulled it off.  

And I see no reason to believe that she couldn't pull it off.

[Sarah1281]

As near as I can tell, every companion cab be tricked by a demon in that sequence (with the seeming exception of Justice). So that's not a very strong argument.

Why not? None of the other companions (except possibly Anders who wasn't even there) ever claim to be experts on spirits and controlling demons.

[cglasgow]

I recently finished a long Merrill post on another message board. Here it is:

My own opinion of Merrill is that I just love that poor little elf girl all to pieces. I did the friendship romance path with her and the ending was a total kick in the balls.

But when I stepped back and thought about it, I realized that I still couldn't blame her for how badly it ended. Merrill never wanted anybody to die except her. She set things up so that she was going to pay her own price, and not sacrifice anybody else. The Keeper changed that without asking Merrill... and from Merrill's reaction shot, it was the absolute last thing Merrill ever wanted.

Merrill had made the choice to risk, and 99% likely sacrifice, her own life to try and give her people a better future. Normally, we call this kind of decision heroic! But since the mirror was actually all a lie, like a certain cake, and not going to actually help the elven renaissance, then it goes from 'heroic' to 'tragic' instead. And dear Maker, is it tragic.

But I still can't call it wrong. It's not like she was proceeding in ignorance of the risks (because that would be stupidity), or proceeding on the basis that she doesn't care if other people get hurt as long as she gets what she wants (because that would be evil); instead, from the beginning Merrill's entire reasoning was 'A chance at restoring Arlathan is worth my life. It wasn't doing much good for the People any other way, anyway.'

Heck, Merrill's 'Don't try to save me! I don't want you to get hurt!' dialogue on the rivalry romance path also shows her awareness of what the end of her road is going to be, and her desire to make sure that it lands on her, not on anybody else.

I just want to give her a hug and tell her 'No, you're wrong; your life is a precious thing, and worth as much as anybody else's. You're not so worthless that the only good thing you can do for your people is sacrifice yourself. Live, dammit, live! And do as much good in the world as you can!'

Instead, we got:

Keeper Marethari: You always knew that your blood magic would have a price, da'len. I have chosen to pay it for you.

Really, the writing on her is, IMO, one of the most brilliant things in the game; she is wrong, but she is so brilliantly and tragically and unselfishly wrong that even when you know its all going to end in tears, you still find yourself compelled to click 'Friendly - Friendly - Friendly' option, because you (or at least I) just could not help but sympathize with that powerful a dream.

Even if the dream was all a lie. Dammit, Dragon Age. I know its a dark fantasy world, but can't we have any nice things? Not even once?

The crux of Merrill's character is a philosophical debate; "At what point does sacrificing yourself to give your people a better life cross the line from hero to lunatic?" Because its undeniably heroic in the proper context.

Edit: And to add on stuff I saw argued elsewhere...

I get  Merrill. I get her entirely. I don't agree with her,  but I am entirely in sync with where her head is. She combines being too dedicated to the mission of the Keepers that she's been raised to believe in with not having very much self-worth with a tremendous amount of unresolved grief for what the mirror did to her friends.

So she's got a core belief ('The only purpose of my life is to preserve and restore the elvhan heritage!') with a flawed self-assessment ('I'd make a horrible Keeper because I'm a total dork, I have no leadership skills or social skills; so trading my life for the eluvian isn't really that bad a trade because my life isn't doing much to help the Dalish any other way!') and a deeply emotional push ('I can't accept that what killed my friends was just another random horrible thing in a random horrible world! There had to be a point! It had to mean something! I'll make it mean something!'), and with all of that mixed up in her head, you get... well, where she was.

And yet even with all that, she still remembered the basic moral tenet that 'Sin is when you treat other people like objects'. So I respect her. I just wish that she'd lived in a world where her heroic purity ofpurpose would mean that narratively, the mirror actually would be worth something and not just be another trick, a demon's trap.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Sabariel]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Avernus made no deals: he just summoned them. He was sloppy, and he paid for it.When demons make pacts, they hold to them: it's a trope that DA's adopted.

If the Warden makes a deal with "Kitty" she doesn't abide by it. Demons are not bound to do anything you say. The whole point of them is to trick, coax, or tempt you into doing what they want.

Modifié par Sabariel, 19 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Maria Caliban wrote...

classical theater is not the same as Greek classical theater.

"Tragic flaw" is the traditional (and incorrect) translation of hamartia, a vital element of Aristotle's outline of tragedy in his Poetics. Talk about tragic flaws and classical theatre in the same sentence, and context is pretty clear to what you're referring.

Out of curiosity--what other period of Western theatrical tradition is described as classical and features tragic flaws as the crucial element? In my brief survey of said tradition, I cannot recall seeing the same terms appear twice but with startling different contexts. It is a fantastic coincidence. Are you familiar with the Elizabethan dramas? I refer, of course, to English theatre of the 1940s and not to Shakespeare and Marlowe and that lot. It's a common misunderstanding, people really ought to be more specific.

Really, though, I'm not sure how that commentary was illuminating: of course theatre's changed over the centuries, but that has nothing to do with where the term "tragic flaw" came from and how people didn't read Aristotle properly. You've explained why (the Christian context) but that just means "times change." We know that, though. Doesn't mean people aren't constantly invoking Greek tragedy and doing it wrong (yes yes relevance for modern audiences etc etc., but that whole school of thought is silly and patronizing).

umwhatyousay:

I think Marethari is just super-dumb and her behavior is baffling, but Merrill seems to have taken quite a leap from "blood magic can be practiced safely" to "it is never a bad idea to consort with demons."

Merrill tells Anders that all spirits are dangerous. I'm pretty sure she realizes that it's a bad idea.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think this banter really explains my issues with Merrill.

Aveline: You're incredibly talented, Merrill. I can see you are meant for great things.
Merrill: Thank you!
Aveline: But, you're stupid.
Merrill: I'm sorry, what?
Aveline: Don't you think it would be better to work on where you are now instead of recreating old glory?
Merrill: No, no that's kind of the opposite of what I've been saying. I'm the stupid one? Whatever.

It's all well and good to want to preserve her heritage but she's choosing that over trying to make the lives of her people NOW better. Finding out more about their past could make them feel better about themselves, I guess, but is it REALLY more important than the well-being of the living Dalish which she seems to have abandoned?

Oh, and if Merrill actually meant that last line then that doesn't give me any more faith in her intelligence.

Eh? She's rejecting Aveline's false dichotomy. Recreating Arlathan is vital to their well-being, more vital than just going through the motions like they are now. They're slowly dwindling into nothingness.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Rhostadt wrote...

Finally, any claims that Merrill is arrogant/stupid and overestimates her abilities to deal with demons is either completely false, or merely inconclusive. We never get to see how her actions would have turned out, so we can't know either way for sure. We already know for a fact that it's possible to do blood magic and summon demons without becoming an abomination, as the Tevinter Magisters are infamous for it. So there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off too.

Wrong. The fact that it is possible does not equal "there's a decent chance Merrill could have pulled it off." It equals that it is possible (and extremely extremely rare in modern times).

So, what evidence do we have as to whether or not she could have pulled it off? Well, she is successfully tricked by a pride demon in the fade. When she talks to you later she says she shouldn't have screwed up because really she knows what she's doing with spirits really no really. So while you're right that we'll never know, I see no reason to believe that she could have pulled it off.

Mostly that she's spent years learning about it and seems to know more about the spirits of the Fade than the Keeper and Circle mages like Anders.

Sarah1281 wrote...

As near as I can tell, every companion cab be tricked by a demon in that sequence (with the seeming exception of Justice). So that's not a very strong argument.

Why not? None of the other companions (except possibly Anders who wasn't even there) ever claim to be experts on spirits and controlling demons.

She's not tricked. She just betrays Hawke and or Fenyriel (however it's spelled). There's a difference.

[cglasgow]

To quote Merrill on the topic when she's busy apologizing to you for succumbing to the Pride demon in the Fade during the Feynriel sidequest:

"In the Fade, you can only believe in yourself. Everything there is a trick, a trap, or a lie. I knew that; I knew I couldn't trust anything the demon said. I don't know why I did."

Judging from her reaction, and Isabela's, it seems that the demons in that Fade sequence were throwing in a Suggestion spell (to slip into d20 terminology) along with simply making an offer; they both described it in terms of 'On some level I knew what they were saying was crap all along, but I found myself sucked along with it anyway.'

Edit: And remember, you're in the mind of a guy who has a unique relationship with the Fade, one that lets demons working through him be much more powerful in the real world than they'd otherwise normally be; that's every excuse for demonic temptation to work a bit atypically there.

Merrill knew even as early as act 2 that demons lie a lot; her bargain with the initial one seemed very much a 'I know its going to try and betray me eventually; the question is, can I succeed in my project before it does' thing.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Matterialize]

I like that she "plays" with blood magic, because she's one of the few people in the game (or the only one?) that shares my view that it isn't an inherently bad thing. Just depends on how it's used, same as traditional magic. She abhors its application in necromancy.

I agree that she's a bit too carefree with demons, but then again, perhaps not every spirit she contacts is a demon. Unlikely but possible.

Modifié par Matterialize, 19 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Rhostadt wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...
 (and extremely extremely rare in modern times).  

Now you're making stuff up.

Name me five mages living in the Dragon Age who have made deals with demons and came out the better for it.  I can't think of one.  

So, what evidence do we have as to whether or not she could have pulled it off?

None whatsoever, for either case, that's the point.

Yet on the basis of no evidence you say that you know that Merrill has a "decent chance" of outsmarting it.  This makes no sense.  

Well, she is successfully tricked by a pride demon in the fade.

As near as I can tell, every companion cab be tricked by a demon in that sequence (with the seeming exception of Justice).  So that's not a very strong argument.

How does that weaken my argument that most people who try to outsmart demons fail?  If anything it makes it stronger.  And how are the other companions relevant at all to my point that Merrill has already failed to outsmart a demon?  

When she talks to you later she says she shouldn't have screwed up because really she knows what she's doing with spirits really no really.

That's not what she says.

Why would this instance of being outsmarted by a demon even though she was sure she was safe be different from when she tried to outsmart Audacity?

 So while you're right that we'll never know, I see no reason to believe that she could have pulled it off.  

And I see no reason to believe that she couldn't pull it off.

What you said is that she had a decent chance.  That is not the same thing.

[Dan-mac RI]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think this banter really explains my issues with Merrill.

Aveline: You're incredibly talented, Merrill. I can see you are meant for great things.
Merrill: Thank you!
Aveline: But, you're stupid.
Merrill: I'm sorry, what?
Aveline: Don't you think it would be better to work on where you are now instead of recreating old glory?
Merrill: No, no that's kind of the opposite of what I've been saying. I'm the stupid one? Whatever.

It's all well and good to want to preserve her heritage but she's choosing that over trying to make the lives of her people NOW better. Finding out more about their past could make them feel better about themselves, I guess, but is it REALLY more important than the well-being of the living Dalish which she seems to have abandoned?

Oh, and if Merrill actually meant that last line then that doesn't give me any more faith in her intelligence.

To Merrill, those two things are one in the same. And considering the things the ancient elves were supposedly capable of, if you recover even a fraction of that knowledge, it sure as hell couldn't hurt the Dalish. I know I already went over it, but if the myths about Arlathan are true, that would be like modern day humans discovering a true AI supercomputer from the stone age. It would be like finding atlantis and it being what the most insane theory says it is(that it was some kind of alien built, hyper-advanced society powered by crystals).

Another thing, I thought the greatest threats to the Dalish were from the outside? Although I think losing their culture would eventually end them too, the gravest, most immediate threat is the Chantry, who is far beyond Merrill's scope to change; she wouldn't know the first thing to do. Besides, that's Anders' job.

You say she should help NOW. My question is what can she do, besides preserve the traditions and/or discover new ones? She is attempting to do the latter through any means necessary.

[cglasgow]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Name me five mages living in the Dragon Age who have made deals with demons and came out the better for it.  I can't think of one.

Avernus, if you go for the Good Ending of Warden's Keep.

[Matterialize]

Mage Warden counts for the other four.

[Cat Fancy]

Rhostadt wrote...

As near as I can tell, every companion cab be tricked by a demon in that sequence (with the seeming exception of Justice).  So that's not a very strong argument.

Why does the fact that other people can be fooled by a demon/spirit/whatever nullify the fact that Merrill, ostensibly an expert at protecting herself against this kind of thing, can? This was a weak Pride demon, too, compared to others in the game, although you're welcome to call gameplay/story segregation.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 19 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[GillianRey]

I think Merrill is the one character I can understand the most. Well the only one I have a clear interpretation of that doesn't annoy me. Her story loosely reminds me of Macbeth. Her pride clouds her judgement and thats her Fatal flaw. Shes a good person in her original intentions but that seed is planted by the demon and it consumes her even though she thinks everything is under control. She says she doing it for her clan but really shes doing it all for herself, she wants the clan to see her as the hero and that selfishness leads her to lose out in the end. Merrill is cute like a puppy and hilarious but not everyone is all angsty and dark on the outside, she puts on a brave face and she'll try to shrug it of, clearly not wanting to burden anyone. Think about it, if something is eating at you then you rarely shout it from the roof tops most people hide there issues with humour and frivolity to make things easier. Conversions with her at her house is where you really hit the nerve and see whats going on under the surface and can really see how torn she is, I find her to be a heartbreakingly tragic character.

[Cat Fancy]

mrsph wrote...

The Warden comes out pretty well off if you bargain with the demon possessing Conner. Conner? Not so much.

But onto Merrill. Yes, she is very foolish and has no idea what she is doing when she starts mucking around with demons and blood magic. Sadly, the Keeper has to die because Merrill is too stubborn and idiotic to learn anything until the end.

Marethari's an idiot, too, though. I have no idea what she was thinking, sacrificing herself without telling anyone in the clan and giving Merrill a chance to think she could've done better because she wasn't going to willing give herself over to the demon.

[cglasgow]

Actually, I call it an effect of Feynriel's unique mindscape; remember, Feynriel has the ability to actually kill people for real, in the real world, just by entering their dreams and 'killing' them there. He's a mutant that way. It's a plot point.

So, if you're inside Feynriel's dreams... how much more vulnerable are you, in ways that you aren't normally as vulnerable, when in the Fade?

That would adequately explain why Merrill was caught off guard; under normal circumstances she is pretty expert with handling demons in the Fade, but she forgot to allow for the Feynriel-as-dreamer factor.

Also, you cannot blame Merrill for the Keeper's death; its not like she let the demon out and it ate Merethari.   Merethari deliberately chose her death when she could totally have lived simply by not volunteering herself, and she had no obligation to volunteer herself but chose to do so for her own reasons.   So the moral onus lies on her alone.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[cglasgow]

Yeah, I got +rivalry for giving her a gift once; there's bugs all over there.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

She's not tricked. She just betrays Hawke and or Fenyriel (however it's spelled). There's a difference.

Wrong.  She believes the demon when he says he can give her Fenyriel's power.  Her line: "You can do that?"

In her apology to Hawke she said she didn't want to believe it, she just had to.  Those are her exact words.  

I'm not saying there isn't an element of betrayal in her action.  There is.  But she is beaten by the demon, no question.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 19 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

mrsph wrote...

The Warden comes out pretty well off if you bargain with the demon possessing Conner. Conner? Not so much.

The Warden and Hawke are both Mary Sues.  They're plot protected, nothing bad will ever come of their deals or use of blood magic.  Nothing that affects them anyway.  

[Cat Fancy]

mrsph wrote...

Hawke to sloth demon: I'm not letting you possess Feynriel

Merill: Derp +10 rivalry

though that is probably just the approval system being stupid.

No, I think it's pretty revealing. It is weird that you apparently get rivalry no matter what for bringing her into the Fade, though.

cglasgow wrote...

Yeah, I got +rivalry for giving her a gift once; there's bugs all over there.

Gifts give you rivalry if you're rivals and friendship if you're friends.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 19 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

mrsph wrote...

True.

I don't even consider blood magic when Hawke or the Warden use it to be canon anyway. Just a gameplay thing.

srsly

[Emperor Iaius I]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

She's not tricked. She just betrays Hawke and or Fenyriel (however it's spelled). There's a difference.

Wrong.  She believes the demon when he says he can give her Fenyriel's power.  Her line: "You can do that?"

In her apology to Hawke she said she didn't want to believe it, she just had to.  Those are her exact words.  

I'm not saying there isn't an element of betrayal in her action.  There is.  But she is beaten by the demon, no question.  

Not wanting to believe and being untrue are not the same thing. Dreamwalkers have that power, apparently. She's not saying that the demon lied: she's saying that she had no choice because it was too good to pass up. Moreover, the "trick" we're concerned with isn't that a demon will lie to her--she expects that--but that a demon will possess her.

[wikkedjoker]

She's just Moe.