323 réponses à ce sujet

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Not wanting to believe and being untrue are not the same thing. Dreamwalkers have that power, apparently. She's not saying that the demon lied: she's saying that she had no choice because it was too good to pass up. Moreover, the "trick" we're concerned with isn't that a demon will lie to her--she expects that--but that a demon will possess her.

She is saying that the demon lied.  When she wakes up she realizes that the pride demon could never have given her the Dreamer power.  

Furthermore, she says she "forgot that you can't bind a demon with words."  This means that, in the fade, she believed she had it in her to bind the demon and is now admitting to Hawke that she couldn't.  This is an admission of defeat on her part.

And when it comes to matters of lies and possession, I think the boundaries between the two are pretty nebulous.  

Anyway I think we might just be seeing things differently.  But even if I conceded to you that she was not tricked or defeated in the fade (which I am not!  but just hypothetically) there is still absolutely zero evidence indicating that she would be able to outwit or overpower a Pride (Audacity).  And since no one I can think of not being controlled by a player has been able to do this I don't understand why people are convinced Merrill will be the exception.

Let me just end by saying that none of this is meant to bash Merrill.  She is my favorite character in DA2 and I criticize her pride because I care.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 19 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Merrill is fantastic. She is terribly flawed as a character and much of her reasoning for using blood magic to try and repair the Eluvian is hard for us to understand. However it is partly because of this that she is such a good character, she mixes the alien with the overly familiar. I found her story arc to be the perfect example of how good the rivalry system can be as well.

I had originally intended to get to know her better on a future playthrough and focus on other characters, however by Act 3 I was pretty much enthralled. Hell, it could have BEEN blood magic it was that effective. As my Hawke strongly disagreed with the use of blood magic I naturally tried to get her not to, and it is through pushing her like that (in a direction that would usually result in us having to kill the character, exile them or otherwise lose them to some extent in a previous Bioware game), that I saw a whole new dynamic arise. No more pandering to a characters whims to follow their plot, instead my Hawke challenged her at every turn; and then finally felt like he had helped her turn a corner.

Sort of like trying to help someone overcome an addiction and growing closer to them, wanting to protect them from themselves so badly that you grow to love them and they in turn fall for you despite also feeling so much anger at you for holding them back from the thing they feel they need.

Yes Merrill is lovely, cute as a button and with a voice to die for. But at the end of the day it is how well written her battle with addiction is, and it's context with the world of Dragon Age, that makes her story so compelling. Particularly as a love story.

Oh and no tragic ending here, and I even sided with the Templars.

[Clover Rider]

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

History is important to Merrill she thinks it will help her people even if she will be hated by her people.

See I can get this without history we are nothing imo=].

[Matterialize]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Merrill is fantastic. She is terribly flawed as a character and much of her reasoning for using blood magic to try and repair the Eluvian is hard for us to understand.

I would dispute this. Her reasoning for using blood magic is pretty straightforward: it's what she needed (or so she thought) to do, so she did it. Similarly, when breaking that barrier during her recruitment and you have the option to chew her out for it, she'll just say "What? It worked, didn't it?". To her, blood magic is just another tool in her toolbox. I don't think she considers it with the same drama/greed/fear that most other people do. Her attitude towards blood magic is one of the things I like most about her.

Reminds me of a quote from the novel Losing Joe's Place. "We needed money, so we got some."

[Clover Rider]

Matterialize wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Merrill is fantastic. She is terribly flawed as a character and much of her reasoning for using blood magic to try and repair the Eluvian is hard for us to understand.

I would dispute this. Her reasoning for using blood magic is pretty straightforward: it's what she needed (or so she thought) to do, so she did it. Similarly, when breaking that barrier during her recruitment and you have the option to chew her out for it, she'll just say "What? It worked, didn't it?". To her, blood magic is just another tool in her toolbox. I don't think she considers it with the same drama/greed/fear that most other people do. Her attitude towards blood magic is one of the things I like most about her.

Reminds me of a quote from the novel Losing Joe's Place. "We needed money, so we got some."

What's funny is I bet you most players role play blood mages that way too:whistle:.

[Maria Caliban]

Arnyhold wrote...

Only Merill's concept staggers my mind. I do understand they wanted to make a naive, bashful character, but WHY the hell she have to be a bloodmage? Or even a mage?

What character class best fits naive and bashful? Rogue?

They made her a blood mage because she has a specific, difficult goal but doesn't have a stockpile of lyrium. Also, because her people aren't fearful of blood magic like humans are.

I mean even if you love her you must admit she is not simply naive and bashful, but stupid.

I notice that when someone says "you have to admit," they typically follow it up with something that many people disagree with. This is especially amusing on the companion forums when a brief skimming of topics will show you that others have very different options than you do.

It's sort of like if they simply ignore ideas other than their own, those ideas will stop existing.

[mesmerizedish]

Even if you disagree with me, you have to admit that everything I say is fact.

[Esbatty]

Why is it whenever someone says "with all due respect" what they really mean is "kiss my ass"?

[Apollo Starflare]

Matterialize wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Merrill is fantastic. She is terribly flawed as a character and much of her reasoning for using blood magic to try and repair the Eluvian is hard for us to understand.

I would dispute this. Her reasoning for using blood magic is pretty straightforward: it's what she needed (or so she thought) to do, so she did it. Similarly, when breaking that barrier during her recruitment and you have the option to chew her out for it, she'll just say "What? It worked, didn't it?". To her, blood magic is just another tool in her toolbox. I don't think she considers it with the same drama/greed/fear that most other people do. Her attitude towards blood magic is one of the things I like most about her.

Reminds me of a quote from the novel Losing Joe's Place. "We needed money, so we got some."

I didn't really mean that, I probably worded it badly (I do that alot. ) but what I was getting at was that her opinion of blood magic being 'just a tool' and her insistance that the mirror must be repaired does seem hard for some to understand. Note I said 'hard for us to understand' not impossible. My Hawke could understand her reasoning, but completely disagreed with it and felt he needed to protect her from herself despite respecting her abilities.

Blood magic corrupts no matter how talented and strong someone is, Hawke and Merathari knew this and that's why they did everything they could to push her away from it. I can just see how someone else oppposed to blood magic in this way wouldn't be able to understand why someone seemingly so good wouldn't respect the danger of what she is doing, Merrill (like so many people) IS hard to understand to the layman, and that is just one of the things I love about her.

Out of interest, did you do the friendship romance with her or something? I doubt even Merrill herself agreed with her use of blood magic by the end of my game, considering how she felt after her final companion quest. DA2 has left me pretty much certain blood magic can never be a good thing.

Yeesh I'm not very coherant today, sorry.

Maria wrote...
Also, because her people aren't fearful of blood magic like humans are.

Eh? Tell that to Marethari and the Elves who shunned Merrill? The Dalish don't like blood magic either, at least the ones we've seen so far havn't (Zathrien is an exception obviously).

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 19 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Or, "no offense," but [offensive comment].

edit: Apollo:

Blood magic corrupts no matter how talented and strong someone is

Prove it.

The Tevinter magisters (and Merrill herself) stand as examples of the opposite, whereas plenty of non-blood mages (including the Keeper herself) get tricked by demons. Therefore blood magic is neither necessary nor a sufficient condition of demonic possession, nor is it inevitable.

And no, at least as far as friendship goes, Merrill does not recant her views (nor should she) and I should have thought that fairly obvious given that her friendship bonus is greater proficiency with blood magic.

Eh? Tell that to Marethari and the Elves who shunned Merrill? The Dalish don't like blood magic either, at least the ones we've seen so far havn't (Zathrien is an exception obviously).

They shunned her for the demons, not for the blood magic. Remember: it's thought that the elves of Arlathan were one of the possible sources for the blood magic practiced by the Imperium. "Wounds of the Past" and Merrill's own comments imply she follows this view, and given that she's said to know all remaining Elven lore, that's significant.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 19 mars 2011 - 07:36 .

[Sarah1281]

Eh? She's rejecting Aveline's false dichotomy. Recreating Arlathan is vital to their well-being, more vital than just going through the motions like they are now. They're slowly dwindling into nothingness.

Is she? Aveline said "Don't you think it would be better to work on where you are now instead of recreating old glory?" Merrill said that is the opposite of what she wants. The opposite of putting the well-being of her people above old glory is to put old glory above the well-being of her people. Using old glory to further the well-being of her people or placing them at the same level importance is not the opposite of what Aveline said.

How does she really think recovering the eluvian will help her anyway? Will it create a portal to literally take her back to Arlathan?

[Emperor Iaius I]

Well, you're really begging the question there, aren't you? Why should "where you are now" mean "the well-being of your people"? You've already decided the issue for yourself, and then are using your conclusion to demonstrate the meaning of that phrase--but that's not what she said.

Moreover, your gloss makes no sense. Both Aveline and Merrill know she's recreating old glories and not focusing on where she is now--otherwise there's no point in Aveline saying "wouldn't it be better . . . ?" Merrill's annoyance with the question is because she rejects the premise that the two are unrelated, especially given that her other dialogue makes it clear that she believes fixing the eluvian will help her people. She maintains this the entire game.

And I don't know how the eluvian will help. Should we speculate now? How will running after some mythical powder that may not actually exist help against the Blight? I don't know. There's only one way to find out, isn't it? I mean, we don't have threads on how the Warden's entire party (except Sten) consisted of numbskulls, do we? More to the point: we know the eluvian exists, we know it was connected to Arlathan, we also know it was a Tevinter device (this only if she goes with the Dalish Warden) and contained in Tevinter ruins, and we know that these ruins somehow show some common link between humanity and the elves of old. It's an immensely intriguing quandry and could settle thousands of years of conflict if it's shown that, despite the oral tradition, humanity and the elves actually had some sort of common background. This is tremendous.

But I suppose there were a bunch of people at the eve of the Renaissance wondering why the heck we were wasting our time with Greek and Roman texts from the Byzantines and Arabs and there's no way anything interesting would come from those blasphemous pagan texts which were evil and demonic and might destroy all Christendom.

[Apollo Starflare]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...


Prove it.

The Tevinter magisters (and Merrill herself) stand as examples of the opposite, whereas plenty of non-blood mages (including the Keeper herself) get tricked by demons. Therefore blood magic is neither necessary nor a sufficient condition of demonic possession, nor is it inevitable.

And no, at least as far as friendship goes, Merrill does not recant her views (nor should she) and I should have thought that fairly obvious given that her friendship bonus is greater proficiency with blood magic.

You really think so? Tevinter is, if anything, proof that blood magic DOES corrupt, any magisters who don't use it to it's full potential don't get any real power. At least according to Fenris. Plus even the Tevinters know it's neccesary to come down hard on mages who go overboard. It's certainly possible to use blood magic without going batcrap crazy in seconds, but you are walking the world's thinnest tight rope and it seems to me that in every example given so far it most aren't able to walk it.

Merrill is another bad example, if Merethari hadn't intervened it seems likely the demon would have possessed her or killed her. Not to mention her life was spiraling out of control ever since she made that deal and started using it, it made her lose everything. It was only a matter of time before the inevitable.

Just because her friendship path gives her a bonus to blood magic doesn't mean she is in the right or that eventually it won't cost her. The keeper wasn't tricked, she knew precisely what she was doing when she dealt with the demon. Yes 'normal' Mages can fall to demons as well, of course they can, but the chance of it happening with blood magic is increased exponentionally.

They shunned her for the demons, not for the blood magic. Remember: it's thought that the elves of Arlathan were one of the possible sources for the blood magic practiced by the Imperium. "Wounds of the Past" and Merrill's own comments imply she follows this view, and given that she's said to know all remaining Elven lore, that's significant.

I got the impression it was both, can you prove otherwise? Zathrien's use of blood magic was hardly endorsed either. That's a lot of speculation and considering the source I hardly think it's difinitive. If the Dalish felt that strongly that blood magic was okay why doesn't Marethari use it?

To add to my initial point it wasn't just the blood magic anyway, Merrill IS fine with talking to a demon. That is considered bad by the Dalish and just about everyone except some Tevinters. When you start taking a demons advice you are on the road to a fall, and if that same demon is the one that told you to start using blood magic? Yeah in this instance the two are quite closely tied, corruption wise.

[Sarah1281]

And I don't know how the eluvian will help. Should we speculate now?

There's REALLY no need to bite my head off. What is wrong with wondering how the eluvian will help the Dalish? I didn't say that because the game doesn't tell us, it must have no way of helping at all. It was just an inquiry. I suppose that instead of asking in here I could have started an 'I wonder what the eluvian is supposed to do' thread but God...

[Emperor Iaius I]

Sarah: Your head is quite fine. I'm a vegetarian.

There's a difference between how something will help and whether something could help. You asked the former, as if to suggest it wasn't worth pursuing without certainty.

Apollo:

You really think so? Tevinter is, if anything, proof that blood magic DOES corrupt, any magisters who don't use it to it's full potential don't get any real power. At least according to Fenris. Plus even the Tevinters know it's neccesary to come down hard on mages who go overboard. It's certainly possible to use blood magic without going batcrap crazy in seconds, but you are walking the world's thinnest tight rope and it seems to me that in every example given so far it most aren't able to walk it.

Of course it's risky. That's not under contest. The issue is whether or not blood magic always results in abominations, and we've now established that this is not the case. Whether or not a particular individual will be corrupted is another matter. I'll note, though, that Merrill's blood magic is a product of intense study--like the magisters--rather than of desperation, like corrupted mages. Moreover, even Fenris himself seems to suspect that Merrill will end up like a magister some day, and not an abomination.

Merrill is another bad example, if Merethari hadn't intervened it seems likely the demon would have possessed her or killed her. Not to mention her life was spiraling out of control ever since she made that deal and started using it, it made her lose everything. It was only a matter of time before the inevitable.

What is with people here and begging the question? You need to prove your claims--you don't use your own conclusion as evidence! "Why is Alistair the greatest king in Ferelden? Because he's the greatest!" Uh, no.

Inevitable? You can't prove that, and you've just engaged in selective and subjective interpretation. I'm not convinced by your argument.

Just because her friendship path gives her a bonus to blood magic doesn't mean she is in the right or that eventually it won't cost her. The keeper wasn't tricked, she knew precisely what she was doing when she dealt with the demon. Yes 'normal' Mages can fall to demons as well, of course they can, but the chance of it happening with blood magic is increased exponentionally.

I didn't say anything like that. I said the friendship path establishes that she doesn't give up blood magic if you follow that path.

As for Marethari--she knew what she was doing, eh? Just like any number of abominations, I'm sure. I'll take in a demon, I can control it just fine, and by the way, I won't tell my clan or anybody until after the fact. This is a perfectly sensible and responsible thing to do. But oh, that Merrill, she's so reckless for studying demonic lore and spending years in preparation!

I got the impression it was both, can you prove otherwise? Zathrien's use of blood magic was hardly endorsed either. That's a lot of speculation and considering the source I hardly think it's difinitive. If the Dalish felt that strongly that blood magic was okay why doesn't Marethari use it?

I didn't say the Dalish felt strongly about anything: I said the elves of Arlathan were known to use it. As far as the demon goes, well, we can only go by what we're told, and people complain about her contact with a demon. Blood magic is scarcely mentioned.

To add to my initial point it wasn't just the blood magic anyway, Merrill IS fine with talking to a demon. That is considered bad by the Dalish and just about everyone except some Tevinters. When you start taking a demons advice you are on the road to a fall, and if that same demon is the one that told you to start using blood magic? Yeah in this instance the two are quite closely tied, corruption wise.

She's not "fine." She tells us that demons and spirits are the same, and she tells us that all spirits are dangerous. She's not stupid. She's making a calculated risk. She passes it off as nothing in the beginning, because she doesn't want to drive away her new helpers just as soon as she's met them. Her dialogue makes clear that she knows better, and that she's being quite careful about all this.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 19 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[cglasgow]

Exactly.

'Stupid', 'foolish', etc. is if Merrill did it in ignorance of the risks, or if the risks she was running were wildly disproportionate to the expected reward.

Since she did know about all the risks, and the hoped-for reward was a massive one, her behavior seems to move out of the 'what an idiot' category and into the 'she thought that restoring the legacy of Arlathan was worth her own life' category.

Note that if the demon hadn't been lying about what the mirror did, and it actually was a key to the lost past of the elves, then if she'd gotten it up and running -- even if it cost her her own life in the process -- the Dalish history books would all be calling her Merrill the Martyr, Bringer of the Elven New Dawn.   As is, the whole thing was a trap from the getgo -- because the eluvian would have just been used as an escape route by the demon, not because Merrill was 'inevitably' doomed to end up an abomination -- and the only winning move was not to play.

But its not like she, or anybody else who hadn't actually melded themself with the Pride demon first, could ever have known this.   Even Merrill specifically points out that if there was literally any other being available who also knew about the eluvian's functionings, she wouldn't be talking to that demon in the first place.   Also, it is a known historical fact that the eluvians used to be benign and powerful artifacts, so its not like she 'should have known' it was being repurposed into a demon gate.  Especially after she'd gone through so much effort to get rid of the darkspawn taint on it.

'Stupid' is when you should have known better. 'Tragic' is when you had no possible way of knowing better.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Iaius:

The original dispute was never whether blood magic always causes abominations, it was whether it corrupts. Everything shown to us by the games so far shows that to be the case to some degree or another. The only possible exception is the not so bad Tevinter magisters, and I don't think it's ever confirmed that they even use blood magic - the way Fenris describes it makes me think that the reason they don't have more power is because they don't use it.

I agree about the difference born from investigating it as opposed to using it as desperation, however the main difference just seems to be demonic possession (in the case of desperate mages). Presumably if you take baby steps with it you can stave off the worse ramifications of the study. However even if you know the dangers (like Merrill does as you say) you are more willing to take the risks because you have used it for x long or an x amount etc. Thus whilst your ability to use the magic increases so does the level of danger/stakes.

As for what would have happened to Merrill, I was merely putting forth the most obvious interpretation of what is shown, speculating much in the way you do when you suggest blood magic originated in Arlathan. I don't see how you can dispute that Merrill's life was at a low point (with the possible exception of Hawke if you are romancing her), and I added 'most likely' precisely because I was speculating not stating a fact without evidence. I should have added 'in my opinion' to the inevitable bit, sorry?

I know it does and I acknowledged that, I was just re-stating my opinion that just because she sticks to it on the friendship path doesn't mean it wasn't bad for her. You seem to have a different take on the Marethari situation to me. The way it played out it seemed pretty obvious from the dialogue that she knew the demon would possess her and take control but she also felt it was the best chance for Merrill's survival. She obviously wouldn't tell the clan because they would either restrain her or kill her based on their reaction to Merrill's dabbling. You seem quite vehment about this, surely you don't presume I have negative opinion of Merrill? I don't. Oh and in game I said Marethari was stupid because in an ideal world they could have all talked it out and worked out a better solution. They were both reckless.

I inferred a dislike of her use of blood magic from the dialogue, but as you say it isn't explicitly stated I don't think. The fact her use of it is tied so closely to her dealing with the mirror and demon clouds the issue.

I never said Merrill was stupid, and yes she is 'fine' with talking to a demon. I know she is aware of the risks, that doesn't stop it being one. One of the reasons she is so likable is that she backs up her opinions and desires with intelligence and reasoning, she isn't just some crazy who uses blood magic for some abstract reason she backs it all up and makes it sound reasonable. But at the end of the day she is still going to make a deal with a demon despite everything she and the rest of the group knows about how often that goes wrong.

But this isn't really going anywhere as we obviously disagree to quite a large extent about blood magic in general. At least we can both agree Merrill is a great character.

[Addai]

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

History is important to Merrill she thinks it will help her people even if she will be hated by her people.

See I can get this without history we are nothing imo=].

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value, unless somehow Ariane found her and told her what the Warden had found out in Witch Hunt.  It's just an artifact that killed a member of her clan and doomed another, but she's willing to risk her whole clan over it.

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Exactly.

'Stupid', 'foolish', etc. is if Merrill did it in ignorance of the risks, or if the risks she was running were wildly disproportionate to the expected reward.

Since she did know about all the risks, and the hoped-for reward was a massive one, her behavior seems to move out of the 'what an idiot' category and into the 'she thought that restoring the legacy of Arlathan was worth her own life' category.

What reward is that??

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value,

Not even remotely so.  Even Duncan tells us as far back as DA1's Dalish Elf origin what the eluvians used to be used for, before they were corrupted.

How to fix them and exactly how they work is knowledge so old that only Fade spirits still remember it, but what they did is all over Dalish history texts.  Merrill was a Keeper's apprentice; she's read them all.  (Not to mention that she's actually talked to Duncan, when he visited her clan back in Ferelden... remember, Duncan and Keeper Merethari knew each other.)

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value,

Not even remotely so.  Even Duncan tells us as far back as DA1's Dalish Elf origin what the eluvians used to be used for, before they were corrupted.

How to fix them and exactly how they work is knowledge so old that only Fade spirits still remember it, but what they did is all over Dalish history texts.  Merrill was a Keeper's apprentice; she's read them all.  (Not to mention that she's actually talked to Duncan, when he visited her clan back in Ferelden... remember, Duncan and Keeper Merethari knew each other.)

I've played the Dalish origin numerous times and I don't recall anything like that.  Marethari says she wants the mirror because she hopes to find a cure for the PC's illness, and there is no discussion of it being a portal that I can recall.  If you have a video or something from the toolset I'd be interested to see it.  As far as I recall, we knew nothing of the eluvians until Witch Hunt and it was Finn, not Ariane, who knew what they were and what they were used for.  Ariane's book is one of a kind and they don't even know what the term eluvian means.  It is not general keeper's knowledge.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Blood magic corrupts no matter how talented and strong someone is,

People keep saying that, and yet in DA:O and DA2, a mage HoF Warden, mage Hawke, and multiple companion mages, can all learn blood magic, without being corrupted in any way. 

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

I've played the Dalish origin numerous times and I don't recall anything like that.

Starts at 2:45.   Duncan misidentifies it as a Tevinter communications artifact (when we know that the Tevinter only inherited them from ancient Arlathan), but he does identify it.   It was not just a random mirror of killing to him; it was something that spread taint because it had been broken, corrupted, from an original benevolent purpose.

But, right there, in one of the DA1 origins, is when we are first told that the mirror is something ancient and powerful and useful... or that it was, before it was tainted and then broken.

And hrm, Merrill untainted it, and is busy trying to fix it.

Also remember that Duncan is a Grey Warden, not a mage scholar, and yet even he knows the basics of these things.   So the knowledge of them is out there.  Merrill is a genius scholar who has spent years obsessively researching the topic; the possibility is vanishingly remote that she did not know at least this much.

So, yeah.  'Reward'.   She didn't just pick up some random deathtrap and delude herself that it was an ancient artifact of her people that she could cleanse and restore... it actually was an ancient artifact.

The Eluvian wikia entry from DA2.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Eluvian

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 10:08 .