323 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

So a Tevinter artifact helps Merrill recover her heritage how? I mean, the fact that it's an ancient artifact is blindingly obvious. It's still not keeper knowledge that these were elven, and a vague promise of some reward to her research does not excuse her stupidity in bringing it into the clan's camp. Marethari took Duncan's word for it that it was corrupted, and was not waiting around because the clan had to get out of there for its safety. Merrill decided her intellectual curiosity was more important than the clan's safety. She then trusted a demon that it could be purified- as if demons never lie to get what they want.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Apollo: 

The original dispute was never whether blood magic always causes abominations, it was whether it corrupts. Everything shown to us by the games so far shows that to be the case to some degree or another. The only possible exception is the not so bad Tevinter magisters, and I don't think it's ever confirmed that they even use blood magic - the way Fenris describes it makes me think that the reason they don't have more power is because they don't use it.

If not demonic possession, precisely what sort of corruption are you worried about?

Fenris says on multiple occasions that the magisters still use blood magic, and you see examples of such in his Act 2 companion quest when you go into the slaver's tunnels. He even comments after Merrill expresses revulsion at their experimentation on live subjects that such things are in her future, and on other occasions that her blood magic makes her just one step from becoming like the magisters.

I agree about the difference born from investigating it as opposed to using it as desperation, however the main difference just seems to be demonic possession (in the case of desperate mages). Presumably if you take baby steps with it you can stave off the worse ramifications of the study. However even if you know the dangers (like Merrill does as you say) you are more willing to take the risks because you have used it for x long or an x amount etc. Thus whilst your ability to use the magic increases so does the level of danger/stakes.

Are we talking about demonic possession, then, or not? To what other dangers/risks do you refer?

As for what would have happened to Merrill, I was merely putting forth the most obvious interpretation of what is shown, speculating much in the way you do when you suggest blood magic originated in Arlathan

This is not my theory. This theory is in the lore: the three possible origins for Tevinter blood magic are that it was taught by: I. the elves of Arlathan II. the Old Gods III. demons. Stating the lore is different than making up an outcome that does not exist in the game.

You seem to have a different take on the Marethari situation to me. The way it played out it seemed pretty obvious from the dialogue that she knew the demon would possess her and take control but she also felt it was the best chance for Merrill's survival. She obviously wouldn't tell the clan because they would either restrain her or kill her based on their reaction to Merrill's dabbling. You seem quite vehment about this, surely you don't presume I have negative opinion of Merrill? I don't. Oh and in game I said Marethari was stupid because in an ideal world they could have all talked it out and worked out a better solution. They were both reckless.

Marethari's calm assurance that she is fully in control suggests to me that the Pride Demon tricked her. She thinks she's fully in control, and that's exactly what pride demons do with the most powerful of mages. She didn't prepare herself like Merrill did. Indeed, how much more interesting is it that after warning Merrill of the lure of the demon, she herself succumbed? After all: they both heard its call.

But this isn't really going anywhere as we obviously disagree to quite a large extent about blood magic in general. At least we can both agree Merrill is a great character.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. You don't need to respond to my post here, then.

There's not all that much to respond to anyway. It has a good sense of finality. We can conclude.

Addai: It's worth noting that demons and darkspawn don't work together. The former doesn't understand the latter, as we saw in DA:O's codex. It would do a demon no good if a tainted mirror turned somebody into a darkspawn; possession would be worthless at that point since the host was doomed to die. Demons don't work against their own self-interest.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 19 mars 2011 - 10:31 .

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

So a Tevinter artifact helps Merrill recover her heritage how?

... it's not a Tevinter artifact.  Its an ancient elven artifact that was later on dug up and then used again by the Tevinter Imperium.   Duncan, not being as intense a student of the history as Merrill, only knows about the more recent 'Tevinter' part.

I've already said this, and Merrill would know about this.

Your whole theory is that 'There is no way that Merrill could know about the stuff from Witch Hunt!'   Says who?  Says where?  Where did that character find all this stuff out, anyway?   From thin air?   Or from reading up?

Finn is a human mage.  The knowledge that the eluvians were originally from Arlathan and only later on inherited by the Tevinter, instead of actually being Tevinter, is stuff you can find out about even in the Circle tower.   If that knowledge has gotten as far as the shemlen, how the frig can the Dalish Keepers not know?

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So a Tevinter artifact helps Merrill recover her heritage how?

... it's not a Tevinter artifact.  Its an ancient elven artifact that was later on dug up and then used again by the Tevinter Imperium.   Duncan, not being as intense a student of the history as Merrill, only knows about the more recent 'Tevinter' part.

I've already said this, and Merrill would know about this.

No she wouldn't.  They don't know for jack about the mirror, not Marethari or anyone.  All she would know at that point is what Duncan told her.  And while Marethari heard the "it's dangerous, it has to be destroyed, darkspawn are nearby and more are coming, your clanmates are dead or sick and this sickness could endanger the clan", Merrill apparently skipped all that and just heard "ooh, cool, a Tevinter cell phone, let's bring the pretty shiny into the camp."  She must have gone back and gotten it before the clan fled north, before it was "purified."

Your whole theory is that 'There is no way that Merrill could know about the stuff from Witch Hunt!'   Says who?  Says where?  Where did that character find all this stuff out, anyway?   From thin air?   Or from reading up?

Finn is a human mage.  The knowledge that the eluvians were originally from Arlathan and only later on inherited by the Tevinter, instead of actually being Tevinter, is stuff you can find out about even in the Circle tower.   If that knowledge has gotten as far as the shemlen, how the frig can the Dalish Keepers not know?

The Circle has access to books that the Dalish don't.  That's why you have to go to them to find out about the eluvian.  Ariane's clan doesn't even know what the word means, let alone what the mirrors do.

Meanwhile, Merrill's clan is in the Free Marches and the mirror is already there.  If Ariane did contact them, it was long after Merrill had already started fooling around with the artifact that got her clanmate killed and nearly killed the Warden, and which represented a danger to the entire clan.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 11:05 .

[mesmerizedish]

Merrill knew that the Eluvians were artifacts of Arlathan that the Tevinters appropriated and said as much several times.

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

The Circle has access to books that the Dalish don't.  That's why you have to go to them to find out about the eluvian.

Actually, the Circle has access to an ancient spirit, bound in stone, that remembers the Tevinter era.

And hey!  So does Merrill.  In fact, hers is even older and remembers Arlathan directly!

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 11:20 .

[Addai]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Merrill knew that the Eluvians were artifacts of Arlathan that the Tevinters appropriated and said as much several times.

She couldn't have known that when she took it.  When you tell Marethari that you found a mirror that caused your illness, she says "A mirror?  And it caused all this?  I have never heard of such a thing in all the lore we have collected."

Now Merrill might have surmised because there were elven statues in the ruins, and Tamlen says that there is writing on the mirror which might have been elven writing.  However all of this is circumspect.  At the time she takes it into her clan's camp, all she knows is that it's a Tevinter artifact that has caused a sickness that killed one clanmate, nearly killed another and forced that one to leave the clan because if unchecked the illness could kill the whole clan.  So her response is hey, let's go back and get the mirror?  Because maybe it was from Arlathan and maybe I can find a demon to help me figure it all out?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 11:25 .

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Circle has access to books that the Dalish don't.  That's why you have to go to them to find out about the eluvian.

Actually, the Circle has access to an ancient spirit, bound in stone, that remembers the Tevinter era.

And hey!  So does Merrill.  In fact, hers is even older and remembers Arlathan directly!

She would not have known that when she put the whole clan at risk, and that assumes that the demon is telling the truth.  A demon would never spin an illusion in order to gain control of a person, right?

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[MasterSamson88]

DA2 does take place several years after Origins, so I would assume that with further research Merrill could probably be capable of finding out what the Mirror is. Especially with Merrill being so determined to find out.

[cglasgow]

Actually, what Marethari says is that she's never heard of a mirror causing darkspawn taint before, not that she's never heard of an eluvian before.

I might point out that Marethari, in the Dalish Elf origin, is so utterly ignorant of the Darkspawn Taint that she can't even recognize a case of it when she sees it; Duncan has to tell her what's wrong with you before she finally clues in.

But that's not the same thing as saying that the Dalish have lost knowledge of what came from ancient Arlathan and what didn't.   Keepers are experts on ancient elven stuff, not on darkspawn.   Heck, even Tamlen is able to identify those ruins you find the eluvian in as elven, yet from before the fall of the elvhan.

PS: Marethari, in the Dalish Elf origin, also criticizes Duncan for smashing the mirror; she says that she had 'intended to use it to research this mysterious illness'.  

Are we sure it was Merrill who originally took the thing's bits and pieces along?  Really really sure?

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 11:36 .

[MasterSamson88]

cglasgow wrote...

Actually, what Marethari says is that she's never heard of a mirror causing darkspawn taint before, not that she's never heard of an eluvian before.

I might point out that Marethari, in the Dalish Elf origin, is so utterly ignorant of the Darkspawn Taint that she can't even recognize a case of it when she sees it; Duncan has to tell her what's wrong with you before she finally clues in.

But that's not the same thing as saying that the Dalish have lost knowledge of what came from ancient Arlathan and what didn't.   Keepers are experts on ancient elven stuff, not on darkspawn.   Heck, even Tamlen is able to identify those ruins as elven, yet from before the fall of the elvhan.

You make a good point actually. 

I'll also mention that Marethari never even actually saw the mirror in the first place. She was only told that some mirror was causing trouble without really recieving any kind of description or detailed context.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 19 mars 2011 - 11:36 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Addai: Isn't your outrage based on the completely unsubstantiated speculation that Merrill hauled off the eluvian against the wishes of the Keeper? What, did nobody decide to stop her, or did she just hide the giant mirror in her pocket? You can't exactly sneak something onto an aravel without people noticing. But that, too, is speculation. We can't say anything either way, and if that's the entire basis of your objection, it's based in fantasy.

Just for funsies, I'm going to start up the Dalish Elf origin. Let's see what they know.

[cglasgow]

Complete Dalish Elf origin on Youtube

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSMIBVNxsoc

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Addai: Isn't your outrage based on the completely unsubstantiated speculation that Merrill hauled off the eluvian against the wishes of the Keeper? What, did nobody decide to stop her, or did she just hide the giant mirror in her pocket? You can't exactly sneak something onto an aravel without people noticing. But that, too, is speculation. We can't say anything either way, and if that's the entire basis of your objection, it's based in fantasy.

Just for funsies, I'm going to start up the Dalish Elf origin. Let's see what they know.

Do that.  They don't know jack.

Is everyone else thinking Merrill is justified because you haven't played a Dalish PC?  It would make sense.  I just keep picturing my Mahariel walking into Merrill's shack and seeing that thing sitting there, the thing that took everything away from her.  If the whole clan got wiped out in addition, as it did in my game, there would be only one Dalish elf walking back out of that shack.  And I am guessing it would be the Warden.

[Beaynid]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

wonky? giving her a 5 gold gift is -15 rivalry no matter your responces. Thats not wonky, thats god damn retarded. I am begining to loath every conversation in this hack job of a sequel. I cant even sell the gift. what a fking waste.

what 5g gift you give her caused 15 rivalry? the halla carving?  i always get friendship points with her from it.

[MasterSamson88]

I always like the whole "My warden would do this" argument.

[cglasgow]

No, some of us have been through the entire Dalish Elf Origin repeatedly and we still think you're wrong.

Also, we have canon for when Merrill started dreaming about restoring the ancient knowledge of her people; after her clan arrived at Sundermount. Because that's when she makes first contact with the demon.

http://social.biowar...82342/1#5682342

Read the short story there. That's when Merrill first talks to the demon.

So either that eluvian's pieces were already brought with them for another reason (and its Marethari who talks about wanting to research the mirror in the Dalish Elf origin, not Merrill), or else she went back to Ferelden later and got them. Either way, the scenario you keep insisting happened, did not happen.

Oh, unrelated, did anybody else spot a subtle thing in that intro fiction? Merrill's first use of blood magic was apparently accidental; she fell and skinned her palms, and then touched the glowing archway at the mouth of the cave with her still-bleeding hand.

That only makes things more tragic, to think about...

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[mesmerizedish]

Beaynid wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...

wonky? giving her a 5 gold gift is -15 rivalry no matter your responces. Thats not wonky, thats god damn retarded. I am begining to loath every conversation in this hack job of a sequel. I cant even sell the gift. what a fking waste.

what 5g gift you give her caused 15 rivalry? the halla carving?  i always get friendship points with her from it.

All gifts give you whatever you already have. So, if you're on Merrill's rivalry path, you get rivalry points, and if you're on her friendship path, you get friendship points. All gifts for all companions are like this.

[Addai]

Why would Marethari bring the mirror with them but oppose Merrill purifying it and researching it? That makes no sense.

And even if I grant that Merrill went back for the mirror, she still took the word of a demon, and naively assumed that she would be the only one who got hurt if anything went wrong.  So nothing about that convinces me she isn't just incredibly stupid.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Addai]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

I always like the whole "My warden would do this" argument.

It's not an "argument."  I'm just saying it's hard for me not to see her story in any other light.  But feel free to actually add something to the discussion.

[mesmerizedish]

Addai67 wrote...

Why would Marethari bring the mirror with them but oppose Merrill purifying it and researching it? That makes no sense.

Plot hole? They happen from time to time. All I know is that they knew that the mirrors were of elven make.

[Emperor Iaius I]

No, I've played the Dalish origin before. It's just that I got the same impression that the others here got, and I wanted to check to be sure. Regardless, though, that text seems to be dispositive here. It wasn't Merrill's idea.

As for not making sense--don't be too sure. Marethari clearly wanted to look into it, and had it brought with them from Ferelden. It's clearly the encounter with the demon at Sundermont that spooked her--and that's where her opposition comes from. Before, she was eager to look into it--and her First was supportive. If anything, Merrill got the idea from Marethari, and the latter ended up getting spooked later on.

Marethari, then, brought this threat to the Dalish. And then Marethari refused to move the clan (as Merrill wanted) and Marethari took the demon in without warning anybody to take her out (as Merrill did).

So who is it that your Dalish Warden wants to kill now, Addai?

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

I always like the whole "My warden would do this" argument.

It's not an "argument."  I'm just saying it's hard for me not to see her story in any other light.  But feel free to actually add something to the discussion.

Oh, you wound me. 

But anyway what I actually meant was that bringing a Warden's viewpoint into this argument is rather pointless. Mostly because of the fact that it's entirely subjective. I mean for instance your warden might hate Merrill for what she's doing but I could just as easily say that my Dalish Warden may have loved Tamlen and didn't want to accept whatever reason for not looking into the mirrors history that the Keeper and Duncan gave me.

Maybe my Warden has had so many run ins with death that she doesn't really care at this point and instead just wants some kind of answer out of it, while also taking precautions to try and keep the clan out of trouble no matter how ignorant and fearful they might be of old magic. At the same time perhaps my Warden didn't really have an opinion on blood magic other than the fact that a lot of jerks tend to use it for selfish gains of power, but appreciated the fact that Merrill took it up to actually try to uncover some of the lost history of a culture that's slowly dying in the stranglehold that is human society. 

Like I said, it's entirely subjective. I personally feel that no knowledge has ever been gained without playing with fire in some sense. The Dalish much of the time seem ready to sacrifice their history and dignity only to avoid danger in anyway. I feel like that's probably why Merrill became upset with Keeper Marethari, and that's why she decided she had to leave the clan in order to get anywhere with her research.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 20 mars 2011 - 12:27 .

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

No, I've played the Dalish origin before. It's just that I got the same impression that the others here got, and I wanted to check to be sure. Regardless, though, that text seems to be dispositive here. It wasn't Merrill's idea.

What text??  The story is about the statue on Sundermount, not the eluvian.  What am I missing?  The story says nothing about the mirror.