323 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

And even if I grant that Merrill went back for the mirror, she still took the word of a demon, and naively assumed that she would be the only one who got hurt if anything went wrong.

Actually, Merrill 'assumed' that she'd be first one to get hurt if something went wrong because she deliberately asked her friends to kill her if something went wrong.   That's the entire reason Hawke is invited along on the final Sundermount trip, remember; to make that in case of worst case scenario, Merrill's total lifespan as an abomination is <2 minutes.

So, yeah, Merrill did deliberate preplanning to try and make sure that nobody got hurt but her.  It's not 'naivete' to fail to anticipate that Keeper Marethari would literally commit suicide on her behalf.   Cripes, Marethari willingly invited the demon into her body; that's further than Merrill ever went.

[Clover Rider]

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

History is important to Merrill she thinks it will help her people even if she will be hated by her people.

See I can get this without history we are nothing imo=].

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value, unless somehow Ariane found her and told her what the Warden had found out in Witch Hunt.  It's just an artifact that killed a member of her clan and doomed another, but she's willing to risk her whole clan over it.

What people got killed? and she did not risk anyone but her own life I also think you forget the power of history and what people will do for it:whistle:.

[Emperor Iaius I]

It's Marethari who shows an interest in the mirror in the Dalish origin, right? She chastises Duncan for just up and destroying it. You were perplexed by it, because you said it seemed inconsistent with her opposition to Merrill. The Sundermont story shows us where their split of opinion originated. It seems evident, though perhaps not patently so, that the Keeper and her First were in accord about the eluvian until the incident with the demon.

I mean, it's possible that the demon is Marethari's entire problem, not the mirror at all.

[MasterSamson88]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And even if I grant that Merrill went back for the mirror, she still took the word of a demon, and naively assumed that she would be the only one who got hurt if anything went wrong.

Actually, Merrill 'assumed' that she'd be first one to get hurt if something went wrong because she deliberately asked her friends to kill her if something went wrong.   That's the entire reason Hawke is invited along on the final Sundermount trip, remember; to make that in case of worst case scenario, Merrill's total lifespan as an abomination is <2 minutes.

So, yeah, Merrill did deliberate preplanning to try and make sure that nobody got hurt but her.  It's not 'naivete' to fail to anticipate that Keeper Marethari would literally commit suicide on her behalf.   Cripes, Marethari willingly invited the demon into her body; that's further than Merrill ever went.

Once again you make a very valid point. 

[Wulfram]

mrsph wrote...

Duncan told her not to mess with it: Nuff said.

Duncan told Cailan that the plan would work at Ostagar.

[Addai]

If the PC asks Marethari "what about the mirror", she says that finding Tamlen is more important. She does say she wanted to study it, but accepts Duncan's word that it needed to be destroyed. Her urgency is to get the clan to safety and worry about roaming elven ruins later. I see the same dynamic in the story, where Marethari is investigating the demon because she wants to find out if it will be a danger to their clan, but Merrill is lured in by the fascination of it.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 12:40 .

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And even if I grant that Merrill went back for the mirror, she still took the word of a demon, and naively assumed that she would be the only one who got hurt if anything went wrong.

Actually, Merrill 'assumed' that she'd be first one to get hurt if something went wrong because she deliberately asked her friends to kill her if something went wrong.   That's the entire reason Hawke is invited along on the final Sundermount trip, remember; to make that in case of worst case scenario, Merrill's total lifespan as an abomination is <2 minutes.

So, yeah, Merrill did deliberate preplanning to try and make sure that nobody got hurt but her.  It's not 'naivete' to fail to anticipate that Keeper Marethari would literally commit suicide on her behalf.   Cripes, Marethari willingly invited the demon into her body; that's further than Merrill ever went.

I'm talking about her getting and keeping the eluvian.  That is where she puts her entire clan at risk.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Is that why Marethari stayed there for so long? To protect her clan?

Is that why she let a pride demon inside her and didn't warn anybody?

For her clan?

Seriously, I cannot fathom why you give Marethari a pass and want to bash Merrill over the head when Marethari's the one doing all the stupid stuff.

[Addai]

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

History is important to Merrill she thinks it will help her people even if she will be hated by her people.

See I can get this without history we are nothing imo=].

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value, unless somehow Ariane found her and told her what the Warden had found out in Witch Hunt.  It's just an artifact that killed a member of her clan and doomed another, but she's willing to risk her whole clan over it.

What people got killed? and she did not risk anyone but her own life I also think you forget the power of history and what people will do for it:whistle:.

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm talking about her getting and keeping the eluvian. That is where she puts her entire clan at risk.

You mean the part you have 0 evidence about?

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

You mean the entire clan attacked Hawke's party after Marethari took in a pride demon.

Or does everybody in the entire universe get a pass and gets to avoid responsibility except Merrill?

This consistent bias is getting tiresome.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 20 mars 2011 - 12:44 .

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm talking about her getting and keeping the eluvian. That is where she puts her entire clan at risk.

You mean the part you have 0 evidence about?

She's got it sitting in her shack!  What more evidence do I need?

[mesmerizedish]

Addai67 wrote...

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

Which was entirely Marethari's fault. Don't try to blame Merrill for a decision that the Keeper made.

[Emperor Iaius I]

But we've been over this! It's the demon Marethari's warning about, not the eluvian, and there's no evidence that Merrill brought it all the way from Ferelden by hiding it behind her back. It's the Marethari that caused everybody to die, not the eluvian. The eluvian is a useless MacGuffin!

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Is that why Marethari stayed there for so long? To protect her clan?

Is that why she let a pride demon inside her and didn't warn anybody?

For her clan?

Seriously, I cannot fathom why you give Marethari a pass and want to bash Merrill over the head when Marethari's the one doing all the stupid stuff.

She's obviously waiting for Flemeth.  Afterward, I'm not sure why they remain.  I would guess she still feels some responsibility for Merrill and wants to stay close by to keep an eye on her.

Why did she feel she had to let a demon in?  Because Merrill wasn't going to give up.  I'm not saying Marethari is blameless, but it's Merrill's stubbornness and naivete that force the issue.

[Addai]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

Which was entirely Marethari's fault. Don't try to blame Merrill for a decision that the Keeper made.

It would never have happened but for Merrill's pursuit of the eluvian and courting of the demon.

[Clover Rider]

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

I think you have to love history to get Merrill and not just any love a big love for it imo.

  I'm a history nerd.  What does that have to do with it?

History is important to Merrill she thinks it will help her people even if she will be hated by her people.

See I can get this without history we are nothing imo=].

My love for history never got a bunch of people killed.  She doesn't even know that the eluvian has any value, unless somehow Ariane found her and told her what the Warden had found out in Witch Hunt.  It's just an artifact that killed a member of her clan and doomed another, but she's willing to risk her whole clan over it.

What people got killed? and she did not risk anyone but her own life I also think you forget the power of history and what people will do for it:whistle:.

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

What does that have to do with Merrill?

[Emperor Iaius I]

Flemeth was there six years before the clan was wiped out. What's she doing after that? An extended BBQ? Not only was the demon a threat to the clan, but so are the Templars crawling all over Kirkwall.

Why did she feel she had to let a demon in? Because Merrill wasn't going to give up. I'm not saying Marethari is blameless, but it's Merrill's stubbornness and naivete that force the issue.

And what about Marethari's stubborness in persisting? What about her naivete in thinking she had control over the demon and she had tricked it? She's as idiotic as any abomination we've ever seen. Merrill's the one who's smart enough to realize that if the demon takes her, she needs to be killed.

It would never have happened but for Merrill's pursuit of the eluvian and courting of the demon.

"But for" you say? Causal chains are broken by subsequent intervening actions of independent agents (Marethari). Marethari is the proximate cause of the clan dying. Basic causality.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 20 mars 2011 - 12:50 .

[Lord Atlia]

I thought the Dalish clan remained because they lost their halla.

[mesmerizedish]

Addai67 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

In my game, the entire clan got wiped out.

Which was entirely Marethari's fault. Don't try to blame Merrill for a decision that the Keeper made.

It would never have happened but for Merrill's pursuit of the eluvian and courting of the demon.

It would never have happened if Marethari hadn't decided to do what she did. That's all that matters. Merrill didn't force the Keeper to do anything. In fact, Merrill expressed anger at the Keeper, because it wasn't her risk to take.

Saying "It never would have happened if not for..." is absurd. It also never would have happened if they had stayed in Ferelden. It never would have happened if Tamlen hadn't been a reckless idiot.

The bottom line is that Marethari decided, of her own free will, to do what she did. Not Merrill, not the PC, not the demon. As far as that goes, it's all on the Keeper.

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

"But for" you say? Causal chains are broken by subsequent intervening actions of independent agents (Marethari). Marethari is the proximate cause of the clan dying. Basic causality.

Merrill knew what the eluvian had done, and chose to court a demon in pursuit of studying it.  That is what started the whole ball rolling down the hill that eventually consumed the whole clan, and the end was predictable.  So there were other circumstances.  It's enough that Merrill knew that the eluvian killed people and could have sickened the whole clan.  Taking the word of a demon and then going back to the same demon again and again in single-minded pursuit of it while not even knowing if there is any benefit to be had is just plain stupidity and arrogance.

[Lord Atlia]

@Addai67

I think it was more pride than arrogance that drove Merrill, she believed she was going to recover lost history, and had she done so she would have probably been the most important "keeper" of her time.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yeah, see, that's called hindsight. Everything looks deterministic if you look at it backwards and ignore the fact that people can make decisions. It's not a reasonable or intelligent position to take. It's emotive--and you've admitted it was the case because of what happened to your Warden.

I've already outlined the numerous precautions Merrill took and how Marethari messed things up at every turn, but you persist on this hangup because you can't get over the Dalish elf origin. Fine. You're a writer, that happens. But at least acknowledge that you're essentially just going through the blaming stage of mourning, and you've found a convenient target and fixated on her.

I'm not going to repeat myself all night here.

P.S. a single minded pursuit of things without any known gain is how we progress as a society. Do you think scientists set out and say "I am going to follow this course because it is KNOWN exactly what I'll get out of it!" Life isn't easy!

Earlier you said something that amounted to a statement that intellectual curiosity is blameworthy. That's absurd. You are too emotionally attached.

I'm not trying to be rude about this, please don't mistake me. I wouldn't get this worked up about it if I didn't think you were perfectly capable of seeing this reasonably. I just can't shake the feeling that you don't want to. I know I'm being presumptuous, and I apologize.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 20 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[Clover Rider]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, see, that's called hindsight. Everything looks deterministic if you look at it backwards and ignore the fact that people can make decisions. It's not a reasonable or intelligent position to take. It's emotive--and you've admitted it was the case because of what happened to your Warden.

I've already outlined the numerous precautions Merrill took and how Marethari messed things up at every turn, but you persist on this hangup because you can't get over the Dalish elf origin. Fine. You're a writer, that happens. But at least acknowledge that you're essentially just going through the blaming stage of mourning, and you've found a convenient target and fixated on her.

I'm not going to repeat myself all night here.

P.S. a single minded pursuit of things without any known gain is how we progress as a society. Do you think scientists set out and say "I am going to follow this course because it is KNOWN exactly what I'll get out of it!" Life isn't easy!

Earlier you said something that amounted to a statement that intellectual curiosity is blameworthy. That's absurd. You are too emotionally attached.

I'm not trying to be rude about this, please don't mistake me. I wouldn't get this worked up about it if I didn't think you were perfectly capable of seeing this reasonably. I just can't shake the feeling that you don't want to. I know I'm being presumptuous, and I apologize.

Hey now that's not how you debate on the internet you can't be nice you have to be rude:whistle:.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm only rude to Templars and Chantry priests. I try to be courteous to everybody else.

[Clover Rider]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm only rude to Templars and Chantry priests. I try to be courteous to everybody else.

Well stop that!