323 réponses à ce sujet

[MorningBird]

Honestly, if Marethari didn't want to keep the eluvian, I highly doubt it would have made it all the way to Sundermount. Merrill isn't exactly sneaky or underhanded with her motives. She's completely honest about her intentions with the mirror, about consorting with a 'spirit', that the spirit may be dangerous, and that she uses blood magic throughout the game. The eluvian wasn't a dirty secret that no one knew about. She didn't pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

The Dalish knew she had the mirror in her possession, and allowed her to carry it as far as Sundermount. They just didn't consider it a threat until the demon showed an interest in it.

That's why Merrill and Marethari started fighting. It was never about the eluvian. It was always about using the demon as a means to repair it.

If the eluvian made it all the way to Sundermount, it was at the Keeper's bequest/allowance. If Marethari considered it dangerous before leaving Ferelden, but allowed Merrill to hold on to it regardless, then she shares the 'blame' for what transpired. If she refused to move the clan away from the demon after seven years, then she shares the blame. If she voluntarily took the demon into her own body--clan be damned--then she shares the blame.

Like most things in Dragon Age, what transpired between Merrill and her clan is hardly as black and white as 'Merrill damned them all.'

Modifié par MorningBird, 20 mars 2011 - 02:03 .

[mesmerizedish]

<3MorningBird<3

[MasterSamson88]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

<3MorningBird<3

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm not trying to be rude about this, please don't mistake me. I wouldn't get this worked up about it if I didn't think you were perfectly capable of seeing this reasonably. I just can't shake the feeling that you don't want to. I know I'm being presumptuous, and I apologize.

Well I've said numerous times I can't really look at her story objectively- no argument there.

I can see that Marethari was taking risks, too.  If she knew Merrill would keep coming back, she probably should have made an end of her.  I assume she blamed herself, which is also why she chose to sacrifice herself.  People are saying she didn't take any precautions, but there I assume she already knew Hawke and Merrill were coming back and so had the same insurance that Merrill was counting on.

[Addai]

MorningBird wrote...

If the eluvian made it all the way to Sundermount, it was at the Keeper's bequest/allowance. If Marethari considered it dangerous before leaving Ferelden, but allowed Merrill to hold on to it regardless, then she shares the 'blame' for what transpired. If she refused to move the clan away from the demon after seven years, then she shares the blame. If she voluntarily took the demon into her own body--clan be damned--then she shares the blame.

Like most things in Dragon Age, what transpired between Merrill and her clan is hardly as black and white as 'Merrill damned them all.'

Just saying that Marethari is also to blame doesn't exonerate her.

[mesmerizedish]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

<3MorningBird<3

B*tch, if you leer at my MorningBird, so help me I will snap you like a twig.

[MasterSamson88]

Marethari for some reason also didn't move the clan for nearly 8 years. Heck, when Merrill showed up to talk to the Demon one last time she was shocked that they were even there. She had another argument with Marethari over why she was keeping them in one place for so long as it was a danger to the clan.

[MasterSamson88]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

<3MorningBird<3

B*tch, if you leer at my MorningBird, so help me I will snap you like a twig.

*cowers before you*

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

Just saying that Marethari is also to blame doesn't exonerate her.

Actually, it does.   Marethari's the Keeper; Merrill's only the apprentice.   So all of the bad decisions that Marethari and Merrill agreed upon way back before they split land with the great majority on Marethari's account, and only tiny little bits on Merrill's.   Especially given that if Merrill is only 18 when she's leaving with us, then she's still a freaking kid back in Ferelden.  Blaming Merrill for anything done as a mutual thing with her and Marethari is like blaming a 2nd lieutenant for a dumb decision by their general.

(add) Or to quote Mr. Miyagi (the original one): "No such thing as bad student.  Only bad teacher."

That takes care of phase one.  Phase two, the part where after they split and Merrill is sent to Kirkwall, Merrill's participation in Marethari's decision-making goes from 'the minority share' to 'absolutely zero'.  Likewise, Merrill is now sinking or swimming entirely on her own devices.

It's just, from that point on, Merrill does exactly two things; sit around and try to fix a mirror, and then invite you all on a trip back to Sundermount that she acknowledges will probably end in her own death.   None of this killed anybody else.   No, not even the trip to Sundermount.  Marethari's death is entirely Marethari's own decision.   Marethari would still be alive if she hadn't deliberately gone and bound the demon into herself, and she can't blame Merrill for that bright idea; it was all hers.

So, yeah, the fallout for Marethari's own bad decisions lie, like, 99% on Marethari.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Just saying that Marethari is also to blame doesn't exonerate her.

Actually, it does.   Marethari's the Keeper; Merrill's only the apprentice.   So all of the bad decisions that Marethari and Merrill agreed upon way back before they split land with the great majority on Marethari's account, and only tiny little bits on Merrill's.   Especially given that if Merrill is only 18 when she's leaving with us, then she's still a freaking kid back in Ferelden.

And after they split and Merrill is sent to Kirkwall, Merrill's participation in Marethari's decision-making goes from 'the minority share' to 'absolutely zero'.

So, yeah, the fallout for Marethari's own bad decisions lie, like, 99% on Marethari.

Where does it say that Merrill is 18?  She's an adult in Origins.

If the entire story boils down to she's just a stupid kid...  I hate it even more.

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

Where does it say that Merrill is 18?  She's an adult in Origins.

I could have sworn I heard that in her dialogue somewhere.  I could be wrong.

[Addai]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Marethari for some reason also didn't move the clan for nearly 8 years. Heck, when Merrill showed up to talk to the Demon one last time she was shocked that they were even there. She had another argument with Marethari over why she was keeping them in one place for so long as it was a danger to the clan.

I would like to know that, too.  I'd also like to know just how hooked in they are with Flemeth.

But as I said, my guess is that they stayed because Marethari still felt responsible for Merrill and she had a feeling that bad sh*t was going to come down from her demon-loving first being cut loose onto Kirkwall.  A stronger keeper would probably have killed Merrill rather than let keeper knowledge be spread or used for who knows what.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[cglasgow]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Where does it say that Merrill is 18?  She's an adult in Origins.

I could have sworn I heard that in her dialogue somewhere.  I could be wrong.

If the entire story boils down to she's just a stupid kid...  I hate it even more.

Actually, in a way, the entire story boils down to the tragedy of treating her like a stupid child.  

An adult has the right to choose to risk their own life.  Marethari did not acknowledge that in Merrill's case, and so unilaterally stepped in to take the bullet for her.   Which is the last thing Merrill wanted anyone to do.

It's a tragedy of loving too much on both sides.   Merrill loved her people so much she was willing to risk near-certain death for them; Marethari loved Merrill so much she couldn't hold herself back and allow Merrill to do it.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

I should have paid more attention to the Dalish in DA:O, but I find it interesting that the Keeper always refers to Merrill as Da'len. Did she do that with the player Warden?

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Marethari for some reason also didn't move the clan for nearly 8 years. Heck, when Merrill showed up to talk to the Demon one last time she was shocked that they were even there. She had another argument with Marethari over why she was keeping them in one place for so long as it was a danger to the clan.

I would like to know that, too.  I'd also like to know just how hooked in they are with Flemeth.

But as I said, my guess is that they stayed because Marethari still felt responsible for Merrill and she had a feeling that bad sh*t was going to come down from her demon-loving first being cut loose onto Kirkwall.  A stronger keeper would probably have killed Merrill rather than let keeper knowledge be spread or used for who knows what.

I don't really think Keepers are all about killing their kin when they step out of line. Merrill having the gift like she does is rare enough among their kind, kill her and that's one more piece of your culture you've murdered. 

Nobody really knows why Marethari stayed. There's numerous reasons, from fearing for Merrill to having no Halla to live off of. 

But really I don't think there was any chance of Marethari killing Merrill. It wouldn't be intelligent to do, nor would she be able to bring herself to do it.

Merrill was brough into Marethari's clan at the age of 4 from a clan in Nevarra. From that point Marethari took care of Merrill, teaching her all she knew and raising her to adulthood. Merrill wasn't just Marethari's first, she was her own child practically. I understand in that sense then why Marethari took the bullet for Merrill. She loved her far too much to allow something terrible to happen to her. 

This doesn't exactly leave the clan without a keeper either. From what I can remember, Merrill mentions the keeper having found a new First and wishing she could have met her. 

Why did Marethari not tell anyone where she was going? I don't know, perhaps a quick decision without telling anyone and simply hoping that the clan would understand.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 20 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[LobselVith8]

cglasgow wrote...

I recently finished a long Merrill post on another message board. Here it is:

My own opinion of Merrill is that I just love that poor little elf girl all to pieces. I did the friendship romance path with her and the ending was a total kick in the balls.

But when I stepped back and thought about it, I realized that I still couldn't blame her for how badly it ended. Merrill never wanted anybody to die except her. She set things up so that she was going to pay her own price, and not sacrifice anybody else. The Keeper changed that without asking Merrill... and from Merrill's reaction shot, it was the absolute last thing Merrill ever wanted.

Merrill had made the choice to risk, and 99% likely sacrifice, her own life to try and give her people a better future. Normally, we call this kind of decision heroic! But since the mirror was actually all a lie, like a certain cake, and not going to actually help the elven renaissance, then it goes from 'heroic' to 'tragic' instead. And dear Maker, is it tragic.

But I still can't call it wrong. It's not like she was proceeding in ignorance of the risks (because that would be stupidity), or proceeding on the basis that she doesn't care if other people get hurt as long as she gets what she wants (because that would be evil); instead, from the beginning Merrill's entire reasoning was 'A chance at restoring Arlathan is worth my life. It wasn't doing much good for the People any other way, anyway.'

Heck, Merrill's 'Don't try to save me! I don't want you to get hurt!' dialogue on the rivalry romance path also shows her awareness of what the end of her road is going to be, and her desire to make sure that it lands on her, not on anybody else.

I just want to give her a hug and tell her 'No, you're wrong; your life is a precious thing, and worth as much as anybody else's. You're not so worthless that the only good thing you can do for your people is sacrifice yourself. Live, dammit, live! And do as much good in the world as you can!'

Instead, we got:

Keeper Marethari: You always knew that your blood magic would have a price, da'len. I have chosen to pay it for you.

Really, the writing on her is, IMO, one of the most brilliant things in the game; she is wrong, but she is so brilliantly and tragically and unselfishly wrong that even when you know its all going to end in tears, you still find yourself compelled to click 'Friendly - Friendly - Friendly' option, because you (or at least I) just could not help but sympathize with that powerful a dream.

Even if the dream was all a lie. Dammit, Dragon Age. I know its a dark fantasy world, but can't we have any nice things? Not even once?

The crux of Merrill's character is a philosophical debate; "At what point does sacrificing yourself to give your people a better life cross the line from hero to lunatic?" Because its undeniably heroic in the proper context.

Edit: And to add on stuff I saw argued elsewhere...

I get  Merrill. I get her entirely. I don't agree with her,  but I am entirely in sync with where her head is. She combines being too dedicated to the mission of the Keepers that she's been raised to believe in with not having very much self-worth with a tremendous amount of unresolved grief for what the mirror did to her friends.

So she's got a core belief ('The only purpose of my life is to preserve and restore the elvhan heritage!') with a flawed self-assessment ('I'd make a horrible Keeper because I'm a total dork, I have no leadership skills or social skills; so trading my life for the eluvian isn't really that bad a trade because my life isn't doing much to help the Dalish any other way!') and a deeply emotional push ('I can't accept that what killed my friends was just another random horrible thing in a random horrible world! There had to be a point! It had to mean something! I'll make it mean something!'), and with all of that mixed up in her head, you get... well, where she was.

And yet even with all that, she still remembered the basic moral tenet that 'Sin is when you treat other people like objects'. So I respect her. I just wish that she'd lived in a world where her heroic purity of purpose would mean that narratively, the mirror actually would be worth something and not just be another trick, a demon's trap.

I thought that was very well written, cglassgow. I think it provides some good insight into Merrill's character and motivations for the Eluvian, and how tragic her goal is.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[Addai]

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work? So they would have a working eluvian. There's one of those in Ferelden already. Her sacrifice isn't heroic in the slightest. It's based on hubris. It would be one thing if she took those risks for something that had tangible benefit. Sacrificing yourself so your clan could eat, or survive attack from raiders, or whatever- that is noble sacrifice.

@Emperor: Marethari also calls the PC da'len. Merrill had her vallaslin in Origins, and that is the mark of adulthood in the Dalish.

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work?

Off the top of my head...

It would allow them to explore the Fade for any and all surviving knowledge of ancient Arlathan without requiring them to bargain further with demons.   And when a lost and vanished kingdom had material access to the Fade, it is reasonable to presume that their ancient Fade gateways can lead you to the one place where a preserved remnant of their glory could still exist; the place where time has very different meaning.

Also, a pair of Eluvian apparently allows for teleportation; a magic otherwise impossible for anyone on Thedas.   Having unique access to highly useful things can, if leveraged properly, grant political and economic power.

There are definite possibilities.  These things were not some of the most treasured and powerful artifacts of ancient Arlathan because all they were good for was making free phone calls.

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work? So they would have a working eluvian. There's one of those in Ferelden already. Her sacrifice isn't heroic in the slightest. It's based on hubris. It would be one thing if she took those risks for something that had tangible benefit. Sacrificing yourself so your clan could eat, or survive attack from raiders, or whatever- that is noble sacrifice.

@Emperor: Marethari also calls the PC da'len. Merrill had her vallaslin in Origins, and that is the mark of adulthood in the Dalish.

I would say that the idea of adult hood for the Dalish could be different than humans. Her markings don't really mean she was 18 or anything if that's what you're implying.

Also I feel like having an Eluvian and learing from it would actually be what the Dalish want. It seems that the only reason the Dalish clans exist and put themselves in isolation to begin with is to regain what was lost. It's stressed multiple times that they hope to gain pieces of their culture from wherever they can. 

So in a sense I feel like sacrifice for knowledge would be honored just as much as sacrifice for sustinance. The Dalish aren't exactly barbarians, they want to do more than eat and sleep. They want to regain their lost culture.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 20 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

I wasn't speculating on her age, but rather how Marethari treated her. However, if she also used it for the PC, then it's perhaps just because she regards them all as children, as a wise woman might call a middle aged person "my child" or some such.

Hybris, by the way, isn't the same as futility, and your statements about heroism are laden with value judgments and subjectivity. Not everything in life is based on immediate needs, and it's very short-sighted to value only what's useful in the next five minutes.

The whole point of the Dalish is to preserve what they have left, not to wander around like savages. If they just wanted to make a living, they could do that in a simpler way. Why do you think they regularly risk attacks by Templars to preserve the old lore? According to you, the entire Dalish way of life is hybristic.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 20 mars 2011 - 02:57 .

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...
Just saying that Marethari is also to blame doesn't exonerate her.

When did I say that it did?

I was simply pointing out how useless it is to play 'the blame game' in regards to what happened to Merrill's clan when no one person is at fault for what transpired, nor could they have predicted what would/could occur.  As someone else mentioned, that's hindsight.

Was Marethari supposed to know that there was a demon imprisoned at Sundermount when they first arrived with the eluvian?  Was she supposed to know that the demon would try to use the eluvian to break free of its cage?  Would Merrill have been able to fight off the demon's pursuations if given the chance?  Was she supposed to know that Marethari would refuse to move the clan to a safer location after 7 years when it was a known fact that she considered the demon stationed right above them a dangerous influence?  When there were human settlements all around them?  Was Merrill supposed to know that her Keeper--the leader of her clan--would ignore her duties to 'save' Merrill?  Did Merrill even need saving?

No one is all seeing, not even the keeper, apparently.  No one could have predicted what happened, or how it would happen.

If there's a moral to be learned here, I think it's that people will gladly throw themselves in harm's way for the people they love.  Merrill knowingly put herself at risk to restore a piece of her people's history because they meant everything to her.  Marethari abandoned her clan and duty as a Keeper because she loved Merrill like a daughter and couldn't bear the thought of seeing her become an abomination.  The Dalish attacked Merrill because they loved and cherished their Keeper and felt lost without her presense and guidance.

Personally, the only person/thing I would blame completely in all this is the demon.

Modifié par MorningBird, 20 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work? So they would have a working eluvian. There's one of those in Ferelden already.

I suppose it depends on what's on the other side of the Eluvian - which was cryptically referred to merely as a place "beyond this world and beyond the Fade." Morrigan certainly thought it was important enough to procure a Dalish book and put a great deal of effort into making the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes functional again. Morrigan's few answers simply provided us with the idea that it would grant her some measure of power that she was seeking.

Addai67 wrote...

Her sacrifice isn't heroic in the slightest. It's based on hubris. It would be one thing if she took those risks for something that had tangible benefit. Sacrificing yourself so your clan could eat, or survive attack from raiders, or whatever- that is noble sacrifice.

I suppose it's an issue of perception, really. The Dalish are focused on restoring the lore and culture of Arlathan and the Dales. Their goal is ultimately to have a new homeland and teach the city elves all the things that they have forgotten. Part of their history is the Eluvian, which mystified even the Tevinters to the point that all they could do was use it for communication over vast distances. If the risk Merrill took provided some tangible benefit, then wouldn't it have been worth it? The restoration of a piece of their forgotten history and culture that might hold a few answers to so many that they lost over the centuries. Merrill already accounted for how it could have gone wrong, after all.

[Addai]

MorningBird wrote...

Personally, the only person/thing I would blame completely in all this is the demon.

That's like saying you blame Anders' actions on the poop.  Anders wasn't completely responsible for what he did, but he was as much responsible as Justice.  Likewise Merrill IS responsible for what happens, even if not Marethari allowed it.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work? So they would have a working eluvian. There's one of those in Ferelden already.

I suppose it depends on what's on the other side of the Eluvian - which was cryptically referred to merely as a place "beyond this world and beyond the Fade." Morrigan certainly thought it was important enough to procure a Dalish book and put a great deal of effort into making the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes functional again. Morrigan's few answers simply provided us with the idea that it would grant her some measure of power that she was seeking.

Merrill didn't play Witch Hunt.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I wasn't speculating on her age, but rather how Marethari treated her. However, if she also used it for the PC, then it's perhaps just because she regards them all as children, as a wise woman might call a middle aged person "my child" or some such.

The Dalish do seem to be paternalistic.  In this case Marethari and the others weren't wrong to think she was acting foolishly.

Hybris, by the way, isn't the same as futility, and your statements about heroism are laden with value judgments and subjectivity. Not everything in life is based on immediate needs, and it's very short-sighted to value only what's useful in the next five minutes.

The whole point of the Dalish is to preserve what they have left, not to wander around like savages. If they just wanted to make a living, they could do that in a simpler way. Why do you think they regularly risk attacks by Templars to preserve the old lore? According to you, the entire Dalish way of life is hybristic.

Preserving is fine, as long as you don't put the clan's very survival at risk in doing so.  Being a "savage" (which they are not) is preferable to being extinct.

I would probably have more resonance with the story if it were a matter of survival.  People wavering in the face of demons or grasping for power out of natural human (elven) weakness, that is something I can sympathize with.  Human (elven) ambition, much less so.  But I'm probably also to find Merrill cute and feel sorry for her, and I don't.  Well, I did feel sorry for her, up until I saw her shack decor.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 03:59 .