323 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

Preserving is fine, as long as you don't put the clan's very survival at risk in doing so.

We're back to criticizing Keeper Marethari here, not Merrill.   Her primary duty wasn't to save Merrill at the cost of her own life; it was to get the clan away from that goddamn demon.   Instead, she parks them directly on Sundermount and keeps them there so long that Merrill is honestly, jaw-droppingly surprised that they're not half a continent away by now.

Merrill isolated herself from the clan (and vice versa) when doing her most dangerous experiments.   Marethari then put/kept the clan back on Ground Zero for highest risk factor.   And we blame Merrill?

Modifié par cglasgow, 20 mars 2011 - 04:27 .

[Addai]

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

[MasterSamson88]

I'd call it human nature for her to feel concern for Merrill, but that's just me I guess.

[Clover Rider]

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

Not really as it is all on Marethari not Merrill=].

[MasterSamson88]

Some Geth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

Not really as it is all on Marethari not Merrill=].

Right, you can't really blame Merrill for what Marethari feels about her.

[cglasgow]

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

No, because it would mean Marethari put her personal feelings for Merrill above her responsbility to the rest of the clan, which still makes her wrong.

Understandable, perhaps.   But still wrong.

Marethari (and if it shakes out that way in your playthrough, the rest of the clan) all die as a direct result because of choices Marethari made.   The choice to stay there for so long when they should have gotten out of dodge.   The choice to merge with the demon herself.   (The choice to go up the sodding mountain without even having the brains to tell the rest of the clan in advance that what she was doing was going to kill her, so that they don't all freak out on you when she turns up dead.)  

So, no, no 'around the circle' at all.  Merrill did her best to make sure that fallout from her **** would not land on her family; its not her fault that Marethari didn't do her job.

[MasterSamson88]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

No, because it would mean Marethari put her personal feelings for Merrill above her responsbility to the rest of the clan, which still makes her wrong.

Understandable, perhaps.   But still wrong.

Marethari (and if it shakes out that way in your playthrough, the rest of the clan) all die as a direct result because of choices Marethari made.   The choice to stay there for so long when they should have gotten out of dodge.   The choice to merge with the demon herself.   (The choice to go up the sodding mountain without even having the brains to tell the rest of the clan in advance that what she was doing was going to kill her, so that they don't all freak out on you when she turns up dead.)  

So, no, no 'around the circle' at all.  Merrill did her best to make sure that fallout from her **** would not land on her family; its not her fault that Marethari didn't do her job.

Like I said earlier, Marethari raised Merrill since she was 4 years old. As far as I consider it that practically makes Merrill her child. So it's quite obvious she loved her. Love makes people do crazy, sometimes irresponsible things. Honestly I can't blame Marethari, or anyone, she was just trying to protect her child essentially. Even though Merrill made it clear that if anyone was to suffer for her actions it would be herself. Marethari just didn't let that happen either way.

And as far as I know, from what Merrill says at least, Marethari did either already have a new First with her or had one coming. So if Marethari would have died she would have had a replacement either way. And as I said before, she probably didn't tell the rest of the clan because it was a split second decision to go up on top of that mountain and take the demon herself.

That's the only reason really, why the clan can turn violent on you. Because Marethari didn't bother to tell them before hand. And if you do choose the right reasoning with them they'll essentially admit that the keeper loved Merrill more than she did the clan sometimes. They don't understand it, but they admit that must mean something, so they let you go.  

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 20 mars 2011 - 05:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

How exactly would the eluvian give her clan a better life, even if she got it to work? So they would have a working eluvian. There's one of those in Ferelden already.

I suppose it depends on what's on the other side of the Eluvian - which was cryptically referred to merely as a place "beyond this world and beyond the Fade." Morrigan certainly thought it was important enough to procure a Dalish book and put a great deal of effort into making the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes functional again. Morrigan's few answers simply provided us with the idea that it would grant her some measure of power that she was seeking.

Merrill didn't play Witch Hunt.

Merrill didn't play Witch Hunt, so she wouldn't be privy to Morrigan's cryptic information about the Eluvian, but she understands it's part of her people's history. The whole premise behind the Dalish is to reclaim their past, so it's not really a surprise that she's doing precisely that by restoring the broken Eluvian.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Merrill didn't play Witch Hunt? Neither did I! We really do have a lot in common.

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

Personally, the only person/thing I would blame completely in all this is the demon.

That's like saying you blame Anders' actions on the poop.  Anders wasn't completely responsible for what he did, but he was as much responsible as Justice.  Likewise Merrill IS responsible for what happens, even if not Marethari allowed it.

Perhaps it was poor/confused wording on my part, so let me clarify:

I said that the demon was the only one I would blame completely,  not that it was the only one at fault.  In fact, I said several times (in two posts, including the one you're quoting) that if anything, everyone is at fault.

If your point in responding to me was to say, "there were more forces at work here than the demon." Yes, I agree.  I said as much already.

Having said that, however, Marethari didn't just allow the situation to happen.  She actively participated in it.  She is just as responsible for what occurred as Merrill.  Heck, the entire Dalish clan can share in some of the blame for losing their Halla, or keeping their settlement at the base of Sundermount for 7 years.

If you wanted to, you could even spread some of that blame to Hawke.  After all, how Hawke deals with the situation directly influences how the Dalish react to the loss of their Keeper.  Maybe if he/she possessed more tact, they wouldn't have had to slay an entire Dalish clan.

There's lots of blame to go around, and it hardly all rests on Merrill's shoulders.  I don't even think the blame can be measured in a way where one could convincingly state that, "Merrill was wrong, but Marethari was MORE WRONG" or "Marethari was wrong, but Merrill was MORE WRONG."

The tragedy of the situation is lessened when people just stand around pointing fingers.

Modifié par MorningBird, 20 mars 2011 - 05:33 .

[Addai]

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

No, because it would mean Marethari put her personal feelings for Merrill above her responsbility to the rest of the clan, which still makes her wrong.

Understandable, perhaps.   But still wrong.

Look, you can't have it both ways.  I see that you're trying to scapegoat Marethari, but if you're saying that what Marethari should have done is run a dagger through her, I wouldn't disagree.  But you can't exonerate Merrill and then blame Marethari for not doing something about her.  She let Merrill drag the clan off the cliff, it's true.  But it's still Merrill doing the dragging.

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But if Marethari was staying because she felt responsible for Merrill, then we go back around the circle.

No, because it would mean Marethari put her personal feelings for Merrill above her responsbility to the rest of the clan, which still makes her wrong.

Understandable, perhaps.   But still wrong.

Look, you can't have it both ways.  I see that you're trying to scapegoat Marethari, but if you're saying that what Marethari should have done is run a dagger through her, I wouldn't disagree.  But you can't exonerate Merrill and then blame Marethari for not doing something about her.  She let Merrill drag the clan off the cliff, it's true.  But it's still Merrill doing the dragging.

I don't see how you can just say that it's all Merrill's fault and everyone else had nothing to do with it. All this talk about just killing her off makes it sound like you're really doing nothing but hating on her while the rest of us are trying to give you thought out reasons.

[Addai]

MasterSamson88 wrote...
I don't see how you can just say that it's all Merrill's fault and everyone else had nothing to do with it. All this talk about just killing her off makes it sound like you're really doing nothing but hating on her while the rest of us are trying to give you thought out reasons.

I've explained the reasons.  She's a danger to herself and others.  You might disagree, but it's not like I'm saying I don't like her tattoo so murderknife her.

People are suggesting that Marethari is to blame for what happens, but Marethari is just trying to stop Merrill from doing what she's determined to do because somehow she knows better than everyone else.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Merrill's already left her clan--by her own choice. What more could she have done to be less of a danger? Would you prefer she ritualistically stabbed herself while chanting the name of Tamlen and your Dalish Warden?

I mean poor helpless Keeper, with no control over the situation and nothing at all to do because Merrill had a gun to her back and forced her to do everything that she did. I bet Merrill killed Andraste AND corrupted the Golden City, too.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 20 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[MasterSamson88]

Addai67 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...
I don't see how you can just say that it's all Merrill's fault and everyone else had nothing to do with it. All this talk about just killing her off makes it sound like you're really doing nothing but hating on her while the rest of us are trying to give you thought out reasons.

I've explained the reasons.  She's a danger to herself and others.  You might disagree, but it's not like I'm saying I don't like her tattoo so murderknife her.

People are suggesting that Marethari is to blame for what happens, but Marethari is just trying to stop Merrill from doing what she's determined to do because somehow she knows better than everyone else.

And in turn we raise that Merrill knows these risks and has taken nearly every precaution aside from leaving the continent to keep her clan safe from herself. I don't really know how you can blame Merrill for any of this when she's repeatedly told the Keeper to leave her alone so she can do her work and not harm anyone around her. She even has Hawke acompany her to Sundermount so she can be killed in case she becomes an abomination. 

As MorningBird said we can't simply blame Merrill and act like the clan is completely faultless in what ensues, it's the equivalent of pointing a finger at Merrill and saying "She started it, it's all her fault.". Rather it's more or less everyones. It's Merrill's for being determined to do this, it's Merethari's for not being able to let her go, it's the clans for not being able to understand their relationship and judging Merrill which basically eggs her on to prove to them that she's not full of it. 

[Addai]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Merrill's already left her clan--by her own choice. What more could she have done to be less of a danger? Would you prefer she ritualistically stabbed herself while chanting the name of Tamlen and your Dalish Warden?

I mean poor helpless Keeper, with no control over the situation and nothing at all to do because Merrill had a gun to her back and forced her to do everything that she did. I bet Merrill killed Andraste AND corrupted the Golden City, too.

I would prefer that she'd have listened to them and not messed with the eluvian at all.  It is that foolish determination that I fault her for.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[Addai]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

As MorningBird said we can't simply blame Merrill and act like the clan is completely faultless in what ensues, it's the equivalent of pointing a finger at Merrill and saying "She started it, it's all her fault.". Rather it's more or less everyones. It's Merrill's for being determined to do this, it's Merethari's for not being able to let her go, it's the clans for not being able to understand their relationship and judging Merrill which basically eggs her on to prove to them that she's not full of it. 

LOL.. the clan is at fault because Merrill's ego got hurt by their treatment of her?  Good grief.

I think I'm done.  We're going in circles.  Maybe the cute little elf will be vindicated in the long run if the eluvian turns out to do something important.  As it is, I'm afraid I still think she's an idiot.

[Maria Caliban]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Love makes people do crazy, sometimes irresponsible things.

Melethari probably was there when some of the clan members were born. While they might be minor NPCs to us, they shouldn't be that to her. While she might love Merrill, she should love the rest of her clan as well. And she's the Keeper. Its her job to care about the clan as a whole. Not just one person.

[Esbatty]

It was a friggin Pride Demon, and the damn Dalish are built upon their own Pride. The Nobility of the Elvhenan were the ones who became the Dalish when they sunk Arlathan into the ground. And again when the Exalted March came crashing down on the Dales, the Nobility again up and ran off not wanting to be corrupted and controlled by the humans. They have Pride in their themselves and their heritage. So that was the easiest hook ever to latch into Merrill.

Her wanting the love of her people despite the fact she felt so isolated from them, she thought resurrecting a chunk of their past would help her earn that love of her clan... her family. And who doesn't, deep down, want to secure the love of their family?

So here she was trying to ascert herself for the good of her people to resurrect their past, even at the cost of her own life. But Merrill's folly does have precedent (Velanna's disregard for her own Keeper, and Zathrian using blood magic/demon summoning for his own means).

To me those other Dalish First and Keeper examples lessen the "OMGWTF"ness of Merrill's actions. Its not unreasonable and it just seems the Dalish culture seems to bring about Zealots in their leadership. Its just - human nature? elven nature? BAH.

[MasterSamson88]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Love makes people do crazy, sometimes irresponsible things.

Melethari probably was there when some of the clan members were born. While they might be minor NPCs to us, they shouldn't be that to her. While she might love Merrill, she should love the rest of her clan as well. And she's the Keeper. Its her job to care about the clan as a whole. Not just one person.

It's obvious that she didn't quite think that way though. Not even the clan really understands why. 

[Emperor Iaius I]

Even if the eluvian ends up to be a useless piece of chunk, she still did the right thing. Mindless, ignorant fear is not a virtue. But I guess some people wouldn't have minded if humanity never got out of the dark ages, because taking risks with no certain benefits is just stupid.

Damn those Wright Brothers and their foolishness!

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...

I would prefer that she'd have listened to them and not fooled with the eluvian at all.  It is that foolish determination that I fault her for.

Then you may as well fault the Dalish as a people, as nothing is more important to them than recovering their lost history.  Merrill--being a Keeper's First--would have known and felt more strongly about this than anyone, as it's a Keeper's job to remember the history of their people to pass on to the next generation, while also expanding upon it.

Merrill's 'foolish' determination isn't exactly rare amongst the Dalish.

However, is it fair to blame the Dalish community for caring so much about their lost heritage that one of their own would one day willingly lay their head down on the chopping block to see a bit of it restored?  Maybe in hindsight.

Modifié par MorningBird, 20 mars 2011 - 06:37 .

[MasterSamson88]

MorningBird wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I would prefer that she'd have listened to them and not fooled with the eluvian at all.  It is that foolish determination that I fault her for.

Then you may as well fault the Dalish as a people, as nothing is more important to them than recovering their lost history.  Merrill--being a Keeper's First--would know and feel more strongly about this than anyone, as it's a Keeper's job to remember the history of their people for the next generation, and also to expand upon it.

Merrill's 'foolish' determination isn't exactly rare amongst the Dalish.

However, is it fair to blame the Dalish community for caring so much about their lost heritage that one of their own would willingly lay their head down on the chopping block to see a bit of it restored?  Maybe in hindsight.

I feel like in the end, Merrill is what the Dalish made her. 

[MorningBird]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

I feel like in the end, Merrill is what the Dalish made her. 

I think the same can be said for most of the characters, which is one of the (many) things I liked in DA2 over Origins.  I'm not saying the characters in Origins weren't shaped by their environments (they were), but I feel like the DA2 characters were handled more... effectively. xD

Modifié par MorningBird, 20 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[MasterSamson88]

MorningBird wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

I feel like in the end, Merrill is what the Dalish made her. 

I think the same can be said for most of the characters, which is one of the (many) things I liked in DA2 over Origins.  I'm not saying the characters in Origins weren't shaped by their environments (they were), but I feel like the DA2 characters were handled more... effectively. xD

Yeah, I definetly feel the same to be honest. While a lot of this Merrill is evil talk annoys the living daylights out of me I think it shows just how much better the writing is now. Certain characters in this game really are absolutely controversial, their big personal quests twisting more than a few arms sometimes and challenging what some players percieve as canon. Merrill's isn't the only one who does this. And Merrill definetly isn't the only one shaped by her surroundings and environment.  

I feel like this is the kind of split reaction to certain characters that the writers wanted to achieve honestly. xD