191 réponses à ce sujet

[BingoParadox]

First, you've got Isabela who stole the Qunari artifact and then kept it when she knew it was the cause of the ENTIRE problem with the Qunari. How many people died because of that whole situation?
Then, you've got Anders, who destroys the Chantry with a magical nuclear weapon just to force you to make a choice when it was the Templars he had a problem with. At least Isabela was just greedy, he's killing people that were trying to help him, or at least trying to not make the situation worse..
So, the two people who INTENTIONALLY caused more people to die then all of the villains combined are your companions, in your party.
I've been a gamemaster for over 30 years, and if I wrote a game than ran like this I wouldn't have any players left.
Who the hell wrote this piece of garbage? If I was REALLY standing there when Anders blew up the Chantry, my first act would have been to reach over and kill him, especially considering that he used me to plant the damn bomb! But that's not one of the choices. When faced with the actual choice between Mages or templars, I just shut the machine off. This is one of the worst written stories I have ever had the misfortune of either reading or playing. They portray mages as the weakest individuals I have ever heard of. All of them know what blood magic leads to, but they end up using it anyway, thus proving *everything* the Templars say about them.
To say I am disappointed in this story is a HUGE understatement. I read through enough threads looking for other opinions that I have a decent idea of what comes next, and I may not subject myself to it. I'm fed up with getting attacked by people I've been trying to help the entire game. Whoever wrote this needs to be canned.

[Vilegrim]

Din't realise that Hawke was friends with Mereidth and the Divine....

[Clonedzero]

yes. two of Hawkes friends cause pretty mucht he two biggest crisis's in the time, but thats part of the story. how is is any worse than a generic evil dragon controling a generic evil army? i think its alot better actually because you develop the relationships and then get betrayed which is great. sure you dont have direct control if it happens or not. but thats not a bad thing, you just have control of how deep your relationship with those characters is.

you might be mad about them betraying you but thats kinda the point, you're supposed to react with "GOD DAMMIT ANDERS WTF!!!!!!!!!" thats what the writers were going for. also you can kill him afterwards so uh? whats your issue with that?

hawkes story isnt meant to be a happy heroic story. if you thought that then you are wrong. its not supposed to be a generic hero saves the day against an motivationless evil like in DA:O. its supposed to be a character piece. and when you get betrayed both times you can completely react harshly towards those people. so again, WHAT IS YOUR COMPLAINT? those moments are written to make you angry at your companions and they did exactly that, so uh? seriously?

[Kesica]

BingoParadox wrote...

First, you've got Isabela who stole the Qunari artifact and then kept it when she knew it was the cause of the ENTIRE problem with the Qunari. How many people died because of that whole situation?
Then, you've got Anders, who destroys the Chantry with a magical nuclear weapon just to force you to make a choice when it was the Templars he had a problem with. At least Isabela was just greedy, he's killing people that were trying to help him, or at least trying to not make the situation worse..
So, the two people who INTENTIONALLY caused more people to die then all of the villains combined are your companions, in your party.
I've been a gamemaster for over 30 years, and if I wrote a game than ran like this I wouldn't have any players left.
Who the hell wrote this piece of garbage? If I was REALLY standing there when Anders blew up the Chantry, my first act would have been to reach over and kill him, especially considering that he used me to plant the damn bomb! But that's not one of the choices. When faced with the actual choice between Mages or templars, I just shut the machine off. This is one of the worst written stories I have ever had the misfortune of either reading or playing. They portray mages as the weakest individuals I have ever heard of. All of them know what blood magic leads to, but they end up using it anyway, thus proving *everything* the Templars say about them.
To say I am disappointed in this story is a HUGE understatement. I read through enough threads looking for other opinions that I have a decent idea of what comes next, and I may not subject myself to it. I'm fed up with getting attacked by people I've been trying to help the entire game. Whoever wrote this needs to be canned.

I actually agree, the plot/storyline is horrible, if Bw cut corners with The Old Republic which is a MMO that should be released next year, its going to be a epic failure

Modifié par Kesica, 18 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[Lithuasil]

Remind me to thank every decent DM I know for not being you then. Because I'd much, much rather roleplay through this, then through most D&d campaign books :<

[SmokePants]

You can kill Anders and Isabella is a **** with a heart of gold, if you treat her right.

[DrGulag]

I agree.

I have never played an rpg where I felt no sympathy towards so many of my friends.

Anders is a terrorist.
Merrill is responsible for killing a very noble person
Isabela is a selfish idiot who has no concern towards the safety of others

And the story only has bad poor choices.

 Isabella is a **** with a heart of gold, if you treat her right.

No she's not. She claims to have changed if you try your darnest but at what point does she walk the walk instead of just talking?

She is responsible for the Qunari riot which should already warrant a life sentence (atleast). 

Isabela somehow claims to have a change of heart but later on is willing to let a brutal slaver go free if she gets a boat for it. ROFL. I really had to laugh when she had that "Now I'm a good person" talk afterwards.

I would have preferred Arishok to all those three companions and he was supposed to be the antagonist. Atleast he was honorable and a strong character.

The worst thing is that your choices have no effect. Anders is going to blow up the chantry no matter what. Atleast in Origins I could have a different outcome in my second playthrough. Why even bother now?

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Rafe34]

Clonedzero wrote...

yes. two of Hawkes friends cause pretty mucht he two biggest crisis's in the time, but thats part of the story. how is is any worse than a generic evil dragon controling a generic evil army? i think its alot better actually because you develop the relationships and then get betrayed which is great. sure you dont have direct control if it happens or not. but thats not a bad thing, you just have control of how deep your relationship with those characters is.

you might be mad about them betraying you but thats kinda the point, you're supposed to react with "GOD DAMMIT ANDERS WTF!!!!!!!!!" thats what the writers were going for. also you can kill him afterwards so uh? whats your issue with that?

hawkes story isnt meant to be a happy heroic story. if you thought that then you are wrong. its not supposed to be a generic hero saves the day against an motivationless evil like in DA:O. its supposed to be a character piece. and when you get betrayed both times you can completely react harshly towards those people. so again, WHAT IS YOUR COMPLAINT? those moments are written to make you angry at your companions and they did exactly that, so uh? seriously?

Although I do agree with most of the rest of your post, the bolded part makes me .

If anything, the character's motivations and the conversations were deeper in DA:O than in DA2. Generic? Which game can you only be a generic human and which can you be one of 6 different origins?

Though Anders part was one of the best moments of DA2, since I had clean forgotten about helping him, and then he shows up. And I just knew what was about to happen but was helpless to stop it. Quite like, I imagine, Hawke felt.

Isabela is... weird. From a RP point of view, it doesn't make sense to me, at least. I have helped every last one of the rest of my companions with their problems, by this point we've taken down an ogre, which Carver/Bethany would have told her about, several dragons, and ancient spirits, and she's so scared of Castillion that she doesn't trust Hawke to keep him from her?

I have a question for the OP, too. Did Isabela just run off with the relic and not show her face again?

[Rafe34]

Merrill is responsible for killing a very noble person

Are you referring to Keeper Marethari?

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[DrGulag]

Are you referring to Keeper Marethari?

Yup. I felt really bad for her.

Merrill was determined to go through with the ritual and Marethari sacrificed herself. As a result her clan has no keeper and she failed everyone she was supposed to help.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[BingoParadox]

I mean, let's total it up:
There's a brother and sister killed by darkspawn...
A mother killed by an insane mage...
An uncle who stole mom's inhertance and left the family destitute...
A girlfriend willing to watch half a city burn before she owns up to what she's done...
Another potential girlfriend so wrapped up in a demon's BS she almost got her entire village killed...
A best friend who uses you to collect parts for a bomb (since it's pretty obvious he had no intention of getting rid of Justice/Vengeance/whatever), and then uses you as a distraction while he plants it...
And the war you just spent six years trying to do something about happening no matter what you do.
The overall story line is so depressing, I can't believe it. And nothing you do in the game can change a single bit of it.

My choice, after Anders plays terrorist and pushes the *WAR* button, would be to kill him and then turn to Aveline and say "You know what, I spoke with the Ferelden King the other day. He seems like an OK fellow. What do you say we hop a boat back home and leave these sick idiots to kill each other off as they are so obviously hell-bent on doing?"

[Rafe34]

DrGulag wrote...

Are you referring to Keeper Marethari?

Yup. I felt really bad for her.

Merrill killed her because she was an abomination.

You might be able to get away with, "Merrill is responsible for the death of a noble person," but Merrill did not force her to take the demon into herself. That part was the Keeper's choice. You can't say that Merrill killed her- she was dead from the moment she took the demon into her to save Merrill.

I'm not saying it wasn't Merrill's fault, but she isn't a murderer because of what happened there.

[Rafe34]

BingoParadox wrote...

I mean, let's total it up:
There's a brother and sister killed by darkspawn...
A mother killed by an insane mage...
An uncle who stole mom's inhertance and left the family destitute...
A girlfriend willing to watch half a city burn before she owns up to what she's done...
Another potential girlfriend so wrapped up in a demon's BS she almost got her entire village killed...
A best friend who uses you to collect parts for a bomb (since it's pretty obvious he had no intention of getting rid of Justice/Vengeance/whatever), and then uses you as a distraction while he plants it...
And the war you just spent six years trying to do something about happening no matter what you do.
The overall story line is so depressing, I can't believe it. And nothing you do in the game can change a single bit of it.

My choice, after Anders plays terrorist and pushes the *WAR* button, would be to kill him and then turn to Aveline and say "You know what, I spoke with the Ferelden King the other day. He seems like an OK fellow. What do you say we hop a boat back home and leave these sick idiots to kill each other off as they are so obviously hell-bent on doing?"

Well. Brother OR sister. Unless you took the survivor into the deep roads and left Anders behind.

Merrill does get her entire village killed in my playthrough. Is there a way to stop that? Besides not doing her companion quest.

It is a pretty depressing storyline. And I DID feel that the War needed to start because of story purposes, and we were kinda forced into it by the writers, which isn't a good thing. 

And yes, Aveline . I was really annoyed that she wasn't an LI- she's one of the better, if not the best, companion. It was almost an awesome move by Bioware- an LI who isn't really beautiful on the outside, (at least, in the opinion of most people I hang out with), but then... nope. All my flirting just goes right over her head. Another kinda sad thing. After Hawke helps her out with Donnic, you can get her to give you a kiss on the cheek. It's like insult to injury.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Ookay... not sure why having companions that would be in complete agreement with what you do and never cross you no matter what, would make for a better story... but you guys can keep on rambling anyway.

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...


Although I do agree with most of the rest of your post, the bolded part makes me .

If anything, the character's motivations and the conversations were deeper in DA:O than in DA2. Generic? Which game can you only be a generic human and which can you be one of 6 different origins?

The Warden was one of six interesting characters, right up until the origin story ended. After that, it's ~15 hours of "I have no voice and I must scream, why would any sane person go along with this suicidal madness" from a roleplaying perspective.

[DrGulag]

You might be able to get away with, "Merrill is responsible for the death of a noble person," but Merrill did not force her to take the demon into herself. That part was the Keeper's choice.

It was Merrill's own doing. She was a blood mage who was using demons in order to fix the mirror. She would have release a chaotic presence from the fade, Maker knows how many people would have died.

Marethari knew this and was forced to take action.

It was a tragedy. Not only for those two but for the whole clan, I doubt the Dalish came out of it well.

Atleast Morrigan was honest to herself and had character, that's why I liked to travel with her. Merrill was just another blood mage who decided to disregard common sense.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[Augustei]

Vilegrim wrote...

Din't realise that Hawke was friends with Mereidth and the Divine....

Whats wrong with the divine? She hasn't done anything wrong so far except save Lelaianas life... if you think thats wrong.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Din't realise that Hawke was friends with Mereidth and the Divine....

Whats wrong with the divine? She hasn't done anything wrong so far except save Lelaianas life... if you think thats wrong.

what IS the divine?

[BingoParadox]

Rafe34 wrote...
Merrill does get her entire village killed in my playthrough. Is there a way to stop that? Besides not doing her companion quest.

Yes. If you take responsibility for her actions (bottom choice) the male elf speaks up and keeps the others from attacking, It doesn't make a lot of sense, but there it is...

And my players stay in my games because I know how to tell a story. I write my own material except for using an odd Savage Worlds Plot Point campaign now and then.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...


Although I do agree with most of the rest of your post, the bolded part makes me .

If anything, the character's motivations and the conversations were deeper in DA:O than in DA2. Generic? Which game can you only be a generic human and which can you be one of 6 different origins?

The Warden was one of six interesting characters, right up until the origin story ended. After that, it's ~15 hours of "I have no voice and I must scream, why would any sane person go along with this suicidal madness" from a roleplaying perspective.

15? So it gets interesting again somewhere down the line?

I don't know about you, but taking a Dwarven noble back into Orzammar was one of the best role-playing experiences I have had on the PC.

The voiceless main character is because it's impossible for many people to role-play if the main character is voiced. Also, there are a ton more options for conversations when you don't have to get someone to say all those lines. Just think, if a guy with really deep voice was voicing the Warden male side, many things wouldn't fit. It's why DA2's voiced main character HAS to be human, though I suppose a Dwarf male would have worked too.

An elf talking like Hawke? Makes no sense at all, unless it's someone like Fenris, who is not a typical elf, to say the least.

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[Rafe34]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Din't realise that Hawke was friends with Mereidth and the Divine....

Whats wrong with the divine? She hasn't done anything wrong so far except save Lelaianas life... if you think thats wrong.

what IS the divine?

The WHITE divine, which I assume people are referring to, is the leader of the Chantry. Kinda like the Pope, except they must be female, not male.

The black divine is the leader of Tevinter's... religion? I guess that's the right word.

[Wereparrot]

BingoParadox wrote...

First, you've got Isabela who stole the Qunari artifact and then kept it when she knew it was the cause of the ENTIRE problem with the Qunari. How many people died because of that whole situation?
Then, you've got Anders, who destroys the Chantry with a magical nuclear weapon just to force you to make a choice when it was the Templars he had a problem with. At least Isabela was just greedy, he's killing people that were trying to help him, or at least trying to not make the situation worse..
So, the two people who INTENTIONALLY caused more people to die then all of the villains combined are your companions, in your party.
I've been a gamemaster for over 30 years, and if I wrote a game than ran like this I wouldn't have any players left.
Who the hell wrote this piece of garbage? If I was REALLY standing there when Anders blew up the Chantry, my first act would have been to reach over and kill him, especially considering that he used me to plant the damn bomb! But that's not one of the choices. When faced with the actual choice between Mages or templars, I just shut the machine off. This is one of the worst written stories I have ever had the misfortune of either reading or playing. They portray mages as the weakest individuals I have ever heard of. All of them know what blood magic leads to, but they end up using it anyway, thus proving *everything* the Templars say about them.
To say I am disappointed in this story is a HUGE understatement. I read through enough threads looking for other opinions that I have a decent idea of what comes next, and I may not subject myself to it. I'm fed up with getting attacked by people I've been trying to help the entire game. Whoever wrote this needs to be canned.

I like the idea of traitors in your midst. It separates the wheat from the chaff, and brings you closer to those of your companions who are most loyal. I've just got to the part of Isabela's betrayal: not just a betrayal to Hawke but treason against Kirkwall. I was planning to fight the Arishok for her, but now...how things change. Things might change further still, but I'll address that issue if and when it arises.

[BingoParadox]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Ookay... not sure why having companions that would be in complete agreement with what you do and never cross you no matter what, would make for a better story... but you guys can keep on rambling anyway.

There's a big difference between disagreeing with someone and being somewhat responsible for mass murder.

[BingoParadox]

Vilegrim wrote...

Din't realise that Hawke was friends with Mereidth and the Divine....

Do you really think that Meredith killed more people than the war with the Qunari did?

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...


The Warden was one of six interesting characters, right up until the origin story ended. After that, it's ~15 hours of "I have no voice and I must scream, why would any sane person go along with this suicidal madness" from a roleplaying perspective.

15? So it gets interesting again somewhere down the line?

I don't know about you, but taking a Dwarven noble back into Orzammar was one of the best role-playing experiences I have had on the PC.

The voiceless main character is because it's impossible for many people to role-play if the main character is voiced. Also, there are a ton more options for conversations when you don't have to get someone to say all those lines. Just think, if a guy with really deep voice was voicing the Warden male side, many things wouldn't fit. It's why DA2's voiced main character HAS to be human, though I suppose a Dwarf male would have worked too.

An elf talking like Hawke? Makes no sense at all, unless it's someone like Fenris, who is not a typical elf, to say the least.

Well, the ting was kind of ok, and I have a soft spot for Lhogain. I didn't play any dwarfs personally - the two defining moments for me, when coming back to the place of my origin where 

a) Having Cullen embarass me infront of everyone for five minutes, and once he's saved not being able to ever speak a word to him again

Not being able to retake my fathers castle from an ursurper, despite having tens of thousands of soldiers under arms, just two days march away.

And how could having a voice, but not using it in conversations, possibly enhance roleplaying, ever? oO