191 réponses à ce sujet

[KenKenpachi]

Err, Only Varric and Avy, would I call friends in mine. Anders I didn't trust from day one, period, and only a fool would trust a pirate.

[Shepard Lives]

Wait, is the OP implying that the PC is not supposed to consort with morally objectionable characters? Your gamemaster sessions must be boring as all hell, I'll wager.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Except, the city is FULL of Templars.

Why the heck would you take Bethany/go there yourself, to a city that is full of Templars?

Like I said, the ending in DA:O, we knew who we were fighting. It was the journey that was memorable. Although, the US ending, despite it being obvious, yes, etc., was still ridiculously good, IMO.

So, I play through all of DA2 and I can barely roleplay in it, just to get a memorable ending. 40+ hours of gameplay for 30min of awesome ending. (Though, from the mage side, I'd completely disagree. The ending made little-to-no sense. Orcino is just an idiot.)

DA:O had the standard hero ending, (with a rather dark twist if you accept Morrigan's ritual), which doesn't make it bad, I must point out, but you went through 80+ hours of roleplaying goodness to get there. Which game, therefore, brings more enjoyment?

While I'd agree on Orsino being... well the guy looks like gargamel, what did we expect?
To me, Da2 was a lot more fun, simply because I cared - I tried to care, when my human nobles family died in Origins, I tried to care when the circle was wiped, but I'm the only one who does, because the game, in all it's massiveness, didn't properly support so many variables. Da2 on the other hand, had dozens of occasions where I was emotionally moved by onscreen action. The scene after my mother died, and Merill came in, an inept, akward, naive character trying their best to emotionally support her lover, that scene alone brought me a thousand times closer to Hawke, then I've ever been to any of my Wardens.

Of course you're right, in a perfect world, I'd like a game with actual freedom to roleplay - but since we have to pick our poison, I'd much rather die of rushed out third acts, and taste the sweetness of actual human drama on the way

That scene was great regardless of which Li- though I haven't tried Isabela yet. Hell, I hate Fenris mostly, and he was even great in that scene.

There were several occasions where I cared about what happened, I'm not saying that. There were more in DAO, but there were some in DA2. There were even two where I was physically affected: When the Chantry was blown to bits, (and that was more of annoyance... really, Anders? I was about to talk them down), and when my mother stood up after... you know. It was worse because after seeing her picture, I momentarily thought that my father had come back, and had taken my mother down here, and that this was all a big misunderstanding, and that the white lilies were just a coincidence, (denial, anyone?).

I'd even say that it was a bit too strong- I nearly threw up. I was/am... unnerved about my sister playing through DA2 because of that one scene, (she hasn't got there yet, I think). Mostly because I immediately envision my mother there. Ah, the brain is a wonderful, horrible, thing. It was really the one time where I immediately and strongly connected with Hawke. Honestly, though, for RP sake, I wouldn't have been capable of fighting- I thought that would have been a good option to have, that the other 3 members of the party fought off the blood mage while Hawke was just sitting there with his/her mother in their lap. (Oh, and now all the other replays, I can't see Hawke's mother without remembering how she looks after she's... tortured. Its viscerally unnerving.)

And then, the other option is that Hawke just annihilates everything. That was the first time my mage Hawke used blood magic in the game. (He's bugged, and has all 3 specializations, which I must admit, I take full advantage of. ) There could have been a great scene if Anders was the LI and was with Hawke if Hawke used BM, trying to comfort her/him and yet warn her/him against using Blood Magic.

Missed. Opportunities. Gah.

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[Rafe34]

Shepard Lives wrote...

Wait, is the OP implying that the PC is not supposed to consort with morally objectionable characters? Your gamemaster sessions must be boring as all hell, I'll wager.

Your sig is great, lol. The Emporium was an awesome little addition, especially with the mirror.

[Kekkis]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Err, Only Varric and Avy, would I call friends in mine. Anders I didn't trust from day one, period, and only a fool would trust a pirate.

That pirate returned with that stupid book and cursed me, becouse she just could not leave me into trouble. One of the few moments that amused me.

And in the end they all were with me to kill those lunatics. (I don´t have the DLC dude)

[Medhia Nox]

They're great as characters - they suck as people I'd associate with.

Why wouldn't I report Anders in? I'd lead the Templars right to his clinic and have them Tranquil the fool immediately.

I'd also hand Isabela over to Avenline.

But no, Bioware has decided that the NPCs are more important than the PC because they want to tell their story. In tabletop roleplaying - this is bad DMing.

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...

That scene was great regardless of which Li- though I haven't tried Isabela yet. Hell, I hate Fenris mostly, and he was even great in that scene.

There were several occasions where I cared about what happened, I'm not saying that. There were more in DAO, but there were some in DA2. There were even two where I was physically affected: When the Chantry was blown to bits, (and that was more of annoyance... really, Anders? I was about to talk them down), and when my mother stood up after... you know. It was worse because after seeing her picture, I momentarily thought that my father had come back, and had taken my mother down here, and that this was all a big misunderstanding, and that the white lilies were just a coincidence, (denial, anyone?).

I'd even say that it was a bit too strong- I nearly threw up. I was/am... unnerved about my sister playing through DA2 because of that one scene, (she hasn't got there yet, I think). Mostly because I immediately envision my mother there. Ah, the brain is a wonderful, horrible, thing. It was really the one time where I immediately and strongly connected with Hawke. Honestly, though, for RP sake, I wouldn't have been capable of fighting- I thought that would have been a good option to have, that the other 3 members of the party fought off the blood mage while Hawke was just sitting there with his/her mother in their lap. (Oh, and now all the other replays, I can't see Hawke's mother without remembering how she looks after she's... tortured. Its viscerally unnerving.)

And then, the other option is that Hawke just annihilates everything. That was the first time my mage Hawke used blood magic in the game. (He's bugged, and has all 3 specializations, which I must admit, I take full advantage of. ) There could have been a great scene if Anders was the LI and was with Hawke if Hawke used BM, trying to comfort her/him and yet warn her/him against using Blood Magic.

Missed. Opportunities. Gah.

To be fair all bioware games suffer from the disconnection between gameplay and cutscenes/dialogue (Me II being on the best track here). The problem with DA is imho that they can't decide whether they want a fitting and immersive combat, or an "oldschool tactical" combat system. But hey, baby steps but they're getting there.

I'd personally say the problem I had the most with Origins (not that I'd ever call it a bad game mind you) was that while I cared, me and the npcs didn't care for the same things. 
In Da2 I worry about my family, and about what's going to happen to my home-city. So does everyone else.
In Origins, everyone seems bothered by that big invasion going on, while I (knowing everything will be fine) am far more bothered by where to find a new pair of dailish boots for my Zhevran. 

[Rafe34]

Medhia Nox wrote...

They're great as characters - they suck as people I'd associate with.

Why wouldn't I report Anders in? I'd lead the Templars right to his clinic and have them Tranquil the fool immediately.

I'd also hand Isabela over to Avenline.

But no, Bioware has decided that the NPCs are more important than the PC because they want to tell their story. In tabletop roleplaying - this is bad DMing.

I do agree that it doesn't make sense to be unable to turn Anders in, (Isabela, I don't really see why Aveline would arrest her until you know she took the Qunari's relic).

Of course, we're also unable to turn Morrigan in for being an apostate in DAO. Though, at least she isn't an abomination.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

That scene was great regardless of which Li- though I haven't tried Isabela yet. Hell, I hate Fenris mostly, and he was even great in that scene.

There were several occasions where I cared about what happened, I'm not saying that. There were more in DAO, but there were some in DA2. There were even two where I was physically affected: When the Chantry was blown to bits, (and that was more of annoyance... really, Anders? I was about to talk them down), and when my mother stood up after... you know. It was worse because after seeing her picture, I momentarily thought that my father had come back, and had taken my mother down here, and that this was all a big misunderstanding, and that the white lilies were just a coincidence, (denial, anyone?).

I'd even say that it was a bit too strong- I nearly threw up. I was/am... unnerved about my sister playing through DA2 because of that one scene, (she hasn't got there yet, I think). Mostly because I immediately envision my mother there. Ah, the brain is a wonderful, horrible, thing. It was really the one time where I immediately and strongly connected with Hawke. Honestly, though, for RP sake, I wouldn't have been capable of fighting- I thought that would have been a good option to have, that the other 3 members of the party fought off the blood mage while Hawke was just sitting there with his/her mother in their lap. (Oh, and now all the other replays, I can't see Hawke's mother without remembering how she looks after she's... tortured. Its viscerally unnerving.)

And then, the other option is that Hawke just annihilates everything. That was the first time my mage Hawke used blood magic in the game. (He's bugged, and has all 3 specializations, which I must admit, I take full advantage of. ) There could have been a great scene if Anders was the LI and was with Hawke if Hawke used BM, trying to comfort her/him and yet warn her/him against using Blood Magic.

Missed. Opportunities. Gah.

To be fair all bioware games suffer from the disconnection between gameplay and cutscenes/dialogue (Me II being on the best track here). The problem with DA is imho that they can't decide whether they want a fitting and immersive combat, or an "oldschool tactical" combat system. But hey, baby steps but they're getting there.

I'd personally say the problem I had the most with Origins (not that I'd ever call it a bad game mind you) was that while I cared, me and the npcs didn't care for the same things. 
In Da2 I worry about my family, and about what's going to happen to my home-city. So does everyone else.
In Origins, everyone seems bothered by that big invasion going on, while I (knowing everything will be fine) am far more bothered by where to find a new pair of dailish boots for my Zhevran. 

Well, sure, except their baby steps went backwards in DA2.

Why do you worry about those things in DA2 and not about the Blight in DAO? (Which, you're meta-gaming in DAO if you know everything is going to be fine, which is impossible to "defend" against from a developer's standpoint.) You know the city is going to hell regardless, from a meta-gaming standpoint, so why bother? Go find some new shoes.

Modifié par Rafe34, 18 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[KenKenpachi]

Kekkis wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Err, Only Varric and Avy, would I call friends in mine. Anders I didn't trust from day one, period, and only a fool would trust a pirate.

That pirate returned with that stupid book and cursed me, becouse she just could not leave me into trouble. One of the few moments that amused me.

And in the end they all were with me to kill those lunatics. (I don´t have the DLC dude)

Thats really the only reasson I didn't leave her to the Arishock.

[Rafe34]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Kekkis wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Err, Only Varric and Avy, would I call friends in mine. Anders I didn't trust from day one, period, and only a fool would trust a pirate.

That pirate returned with that stupid book and cursed me, becouse she just could not leave me into trouble. One of the few moments that amused me.

And in the end they all were with me to kill those lunatics. (I don´t have the DLC dude)

Thats really the only reasson I didn't leave her to the Arishock.

That, and the Arishok really needed to die for killing all those innocents, I'm sure you mean. We don't reward people going on rampages throughout entire towns by giving them what they want, in civilized society.

[SkitSkit]

I'm talking directly to the OP, a game that literaly forced you to walk away because it presented you with a situation that you couldn't handle is a good thing. That this medium can invoke this kind of rage, denial, what ever it is you have experienced is /amazing/. i know its small comfort, if any, but there you go.

The part where hawkes mother dies... it was late and I'm more emotionaly unbalanced then, what? i get cranky when i'm tired ok, besides its only a little more. I was /nearly/ moved to a tear, I have, in my life /nearly/ been moved to a tear 5 times. Amazing

This game got me through the whole spectrum of emotion, that is a personal milestone for gaming.

People who hate this game because nothing works out i think are turly looking for escapism. The fact is **** Happens, and when it happens, and it happens alot , we have to deal. Just for refernece, I live in Australia, where we had that epic flood and was born in christchurch, where they had that epic earth quake. with out getting more personal than that, **** Happens, most of the time it doesn't work out, you just have to go through life with a dry sense of humor about the whole thing, a tactful disposition and take comfort in the things that do work out. Hawke, or at least my Hawke got that. She was sadend by the death of the miners but thought "this armor i got off this dragon is /sweet/". infact the only time she broke down was when i did when her mother did, and I can forgive myself for that, as i can Hawke.

that err, was longer than i thought, huh.

Modifié par SkitSkit, 18 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[Lithuasil]

Rafe34 wrote...

Well, sure, except their baby steps went backwards in DA2.

Why do you worry about those things in DA2 and not about the Blight in DAO? (Which, you're meta-gaming in DAO if you know everything is going to be fine, which is impossible to "defend" against from a developer's standpoint.) You know the city is going to hell regardless, from a meta-gaming standpoint, so why bother? Go find some new shoes.

The blight is nothing but a black spot on the map, that conveniently waits until I'm done picking flowers, and ready to face them. And that the city was doomed, regardless of my actions, was something not quite as obvious, as that the archdemon would eventually be brought down.
Point is, DA2 makes me care. As warrior hawke, I tried my best to keep neutral, and my head down. Then the templars take bethany, I get an absolutely heartwrangling letter, and suddenly I care, not just as a character, but as a person. What did the blight ever do to me? They killed Liam Neeson, and burned down like one village, full of people I didn't care about. In DA2, I feel the effects of the conflict at hand, with my siblings being taken, with my mother being killed in a bloodritual, all around me. In Origins, all the proof I have that something sinister is going on is basically "swooping is baaad".

[KenKenpachi]

Rafe34 wrote...

That, and the Arishok really needed to die for killing all those innocents, I'm sure you mean. We don't reward people going on rampages throughout entire towns by giving them what they want, in civilized society.

I don't know, seems to work out pretty well in Somalia and in area's overran with highway men or barbaric raiders. Or via acts of terrorism today. Western Society today is on rather shaky legs. Allow a few things to go down and you'll have murderous bands of Go-carters raiding your town for gas, women, and cannon fodder. That or my opinion of humanity isn't very high. Or maybe a self reflection on myself. Something to ponder none the less.

Right or wrong however is another issue. I looked at it as a military operation, and the civilians were in the wrong place, wrong time. Until the 90's western countries themselves didn't show much concerns with that, and marked it as an evil that went along with war. In fact till recent time, all conflict predominatly had far more civilian dead, than Military, often buy huge portions. Civilians run the factories, farms and other portion of the infastructer, thus if you can't bomb the power plant, you bomb the workers. :-/  So right or wrong is the question. I say it depdends on the context of the situation.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 18 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[dewayne31]

To me the Airtosk killing the vizcount was a an act of war. so he should left weith the book and left isabela alone. yea she was wrong to disappear with the book. but she did do the right thing in the end atleast my playthru. so i was willing to forgive her. but anders i could never forgive.

[Dangerfoot]

DrGulag wrote...

I would have preferred Arishok to all those three companions and he was supposed to be the antagonist. Atleast he was honorable and a strong character.

He was especially honorable when he had his men ambush me and Aveline in their compound with spears instead of -you know- being a man about it. Seriously what did he do that made everyone think he was honorable?

I mean we're told Qunari are honorable and noble, but I haven't seen one miniscule instance of it. They have duty to a unitarian cult, and they murder anything that isn't as physically strong as them. They're like a pack of wolves. All this worship they get is just silly.

Modifié par Dangerfoot, 18 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[DrGulag]

The blight is nothing but a black spot on the map, that conveniently
waits until I'm done picking flowers, and ready to face them. And that
the city was doomed, regardless of my actions, was something not quite
as obvious, as that the archdemon would eventually be brought down.
Point
is, DA2 makes me care. As warrior hawke, I tried my best to keep
neutral, and my head down. Then the templars take bethany, I get an
absolutely heartwrangling letter, and suddenly I care, not just as a
character, but as a person. What did the blight ever do to me? They
killed Liam Neeson, and burned down like one village, full of people I
didn't care about. In DA2, I feel the effects of the conflict at hand,
with my siblings being taken, with my mother being killed in a
bloodritual, all around me. In Origins, all the proof I have that
something sinister is going on is basically "swooping is baaad".

I didnt feel a strong connection to Hawke family since my main character shows almost no emotion towards her dying mother (there was emotion but Hawke was voiced, it should have been better), dead brother and blight infested sister. These people havent even been introduced to me like the noble family was in Origins.

In Origins I had a purpose. To hunt down the bastard who killed my family and waited in Denerim with Loghain. The blight was my duty, the Arl was my revenge and Morrigan was my romance. There was a sense of grandeur in my quest. Something  DA2 lacked completely with its lazy map design and a story that jumped constantly.

I also dont like the whole "let me tell you what happened" kind of storytelling. I want to be there right now and not going through events that have already happened.

But these are all personal preferences.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Well, sure, except their baby steps went backwards in DA2.

Why do you worry about those things in DA2 and not about the Blight in DAO? (Which, you're meta-gaming in DAO if you know everything is going to be fine, which is impossible to "defend" against from a developer's standpoint.) You know the city is going to hell regardless, from a meta-gaming standpoint, so why bother? Go find some new shoes.

The blight is nothing but a black spot on the map, that conveniently waits until I'm done picking flowers, and ready to face them. And that the city was doomed, regardless of my actions, was something not quite as obvious, as that the archdemon would eventually be brought down.
Point is, DA2 makes me care. As warrior hawke, I tried my best to keep neutral, and my head down. Then the templars take bethany, I get an absolutely heartwrangling letter, and suddenly I care, not just as a character, but as a person. What did the blight ever do to me? They killed Liam Neeson, and burned down like one village, full of people I didn't care about. In DA2, I feel the effects of the conflict at hand, with my siblings being taken, with my mother being killed in a bloodritual, all around me. In Origins, all the proof I have that something sinister is going on is basically "swooping is baaad".

All the darkspawn popping up everywhere, Zevran hired to kill you, the initial fight with the darkspawn, many, many other things I can name don't make you have proof that something sinister is going on, as you put it?

Heck with DA2, I felt that far less, I just went around doing tons of side-quests until the game decided I had done enough to open the main quest up. It was extremely linear, this one big line going from start to finish with tons of little sidequests off of it, and only one that went into more than one act, besides your companions- which are well done, Ill give DA2 that- was your mother being killed.

DAO, though you do have to do a certain main quest, you can do the four you need in whichever order you prefer, coming from any one of six starting points which affects quite a bit of the rest of the quests and how people react to you. Sure, maybe that seems the blight is just waiting for you, to me, it's a needed aspect of gameplay which is far preferred to DA2's extremely linear main plot.

It's like this, I guess. DAO, we have six different starting points, and we know the general area where we will end up- the arch-demon is the final boss. The journey inbetween is this ginormous, (nearly twice as long as DA2), area where we have no idea what's going to happen.

DA2 we don't know who the final boss is going to be, but it's just one long straight line from beginning to ending, that doesn't change or vary a whit regardless of what decisions I take. There were so many opportunities, and so many ways they could have made the game a great one, and they failed to do it.

[Lithuasil]

Dangerfoot wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

I would have preferred Arishok to all those three companions and he was supposed to be the antagonist. Atleast he was honorable and a strong character.

He was especially honorable when he had his men ambush me and Aveline in their compound with spears instead of -you know- being a man about it. Seriously what did he do that made everyone think he was honorable?

I mean we're told Qunari are honorable and noble, but I haven't seen one miniscule instance of it. They have duty to a unitarian cult, and they murder anything that isn't as physically strong as them. They're like a pack of wolves. All this worship they get is just silly.

Thank you so much for this post - that said, offering my hawke a duel was of course an honorable act. Considering the dude is eight foot of pure, armored muscle, and I'm a five foot six female, in a dress. Thank you very much, really.

[Rafe34]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

That, and the Arishok really needed to die for killing all those innocents, I'm sure you mean. We don't reward people going on rampages throughout entire towns by giving them what they want, in civilized society.

I don't know, seems to work out pretty well in Somalia and in area's overran with highway men or barbaric raiders. Or via acts of terrorism today. Western Society today is on rather shaky legs. Allow a few things to go down and you'll have murderous bands of Go-carters raiding your town for gas, women, and cannon fodder. That or my opinion of humanity isn't very high. Or maybe a self reflection on myself. Something to ponder none the less.

Right or wrong however is another issue. I looked at it as a military operation, and the civilians were in the wrong place, wrong time. Until the 90's western countries themselves didn't show much concerns with that, and marked it as an evil that went along with war. In fact till recent time, all conflict predominatly had far more civilian dead, than Military, often buy huge portions. Civilians run the factories, farms and other portion of the infastructer, thus if you can't bomb the power plant, you bomb the workers. :-/  So right or wrong is the question. I say it depdends on the context of the situation.

The Arishok attacks because HE IS BORED.

He's BORED of just sitting there, watching a civilization who has different values than his own, and he's going to force his values down their throats, whether they like it or not.

How the blazes is that at all honorable, or any sort of a military operation? We've let him sit in this city for three solid years, possibly four, not sure when exactly he got there, and he repays us by trying to kill us, (the Qunari you meet say he was trying to capture me, not sure how spears being thrown at me would "capture" me, with no offer to surrender to him), and then going on a bloody rampage throughout the entire town.

ANDERS decision to turn terrorist and blow the chantry up, I can sympathize with more than the Arishok's.

[Medhia Nox]

"I have found you can find happiness in slavery." - NIN

Some people enjoy being dictated their story - DA:2

Some people like at least 'some' options - DA:O

All CRPGs must have some form of linear progression - even open world games have "An End". Neverwinter Nights toolset is the only CRPG that has ever offered a genuine roleplaying experience. It was a genre all to itself - and it's a shame it hasn't been recognized as such.

[Rafe34]

Lithuasil wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

I would have preferred Arishok to all those three companions and he was supposed to be the antagonist. Atleast he was honorable and a strong character.

He was especially honorable when he had his men ambush me and Aveline in their compound with spears instead of -you know- being a man about it. Seriously what did he do that made everyone think he was honorable?

I mean we're told Qunari are honorable and noble, but I haven't seen one miniscule instance of it. They have duty to a unitarian cult, and they murder anything that isn't as physically strong as them. They're like a pack of wolves. All this worship they get is just silly.

Thank you so much for this post - that said, offering my hawke a duel was of course an honorable act. Considering the dude is eight foot of pure, armored muscle, and I'm a five foot six female, in a dress. Thank you very much, really.

It's okay. If you're Spirit Healer spec, he still can't touch you.

[LobselVith8]

Technically, Anders had a problem with what the Chantry was doing to mages all across Thedas, not simply the templars.

[SkitSkit]

Rafe34 wrote...

ANDERS decision to turn terrorist and blow the chantry up, I can sympathize with more than the Arishok's.

Thats simply because you agree with the Anders politics rather than the Arishok's... you terroist!

[Rafe34]

Medhia Nox wrote...

"I have found you can find happiness in slavery." - NIN

Some people enjoy being dictated their story - DA:2

Some people like at least 'some' options - DA:O

All CRPGs must have some form of linear progression - even open world games have "An End". Neverwinter Nights toolset is the only CRPG that has ever offered a genuine roleplaying experience. It was a genre all to itself - and it's a shame it hasn't been recognized as such.

Hear, hear.

NWN was absolutely fantastic, not because of the main campaign, which sucked, but because of the toolset and the ridiculous number of options you could do with open-world MMOs or the tons of mods which are still on their site. (I still think that's my favorite game of all time.)