191 réponses à ce sujet

[vigna]

Everybody in the game is generally wrong..that's why I'm starting to dislike it more and more. The Knight Commander sucks, the first enchanter sucks, I saw more blood mages than innocent mages, the templars are apparently tranquil rapists....no one is right. I'd just leave Kirkwall.

Hawke should just leave ...the city is nuts and deserves to fall.....I'd like to side with the Qunari....

[DarkWulfy]

Hawke should just leave ...the city is nuts and deserves to fall.....I'd like to side with the Qunari....

People may laugh, but given the a choice in ACT II to side with Arishok and smite the entire city of Kirkwall, I would have gladly done it. It would have been a nice alternative to what actually happened next.

Modifié par DarkWulfy, 18 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Emzamination wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

Yeah after you save that mage during the runaway apostate quest when you talk to him in the gallows afterwards he tells you a templar came into his quarters and told him not to tell anyone.

So can you just clarify how murdering that chantry priest (and probably other people who were paying inside) who was trying to find a peaceful solution and help the people of Kirkwall is justified again?

Was the old woman raping and torturing women? Did I miss something lol?

Eye for an eye

For every mage that was made tranquill or killed a templar or priest must die.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

And optometrists out of a job.

[BingoParadox]

Emzamination wrote...

Worst? Anders is a hero and had every right to blow up the chantry.

Can you imagine being made tranquill just because the knight commander doesn't like your face? 

All those mages were being beaten,raped and abused by templars and there aren't suppose to be any repercussions?

I hope we blow up Val Royeaux if theres an expansion

rage isn't even a strong enough emotion for what I feel for the chantry.

Then he should have blown up the Templars, not the Chantry. There's always been tension between mages and the Chantry, but it's usually the Templars who take things too far, just as in Kirkwall. All of the things you state above were done by the Templars, not the Chantry directly. There were several instances in DA2 where it was pretty obvious that the Cleric didn't agree with what the Templars were doing. Could she have done more about it? Yes, definitely. Is wiping out the church going to turn everyone in the church against the mages? Also, definitely. Blowing up the Chantry was a blatantly stupid act that would turn a lot of would-be allies against the mages. Knowing they were capable of doing something like that would cause a lot of people to turn against them that wouldn't have beforehand. Sure, a blood mage could kill a lot of people, but it would be dwarfed by the effect of the equivalent of a magical tac nuke.

[Thiefy]

technically it's all izzy's fault because if she hadn't stolen that book, the arishok wouldn't have been in kirkwall and killed the viscount, who kept the lid on the templar/mage problem. it would have prevented the take over from meredith and the subsequent chantry bombing that resulted because of it.

[vigna]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

technically it's all izzy's fault because if she hadn't stolen that book, the arishok wouldn't have been in kirkwall and killed the viscount, who kept the lid on the templar/mage problem. it would have prevented the take over from meredith and the subsequent chantry bombing that resulted because of it.

I dunno the crazy Chantry sister played her part, and Anders had a plan all along methinks.
Although I agree partly.

[Emzamination]

BingoParadox wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Worst? Anders is a hero and had every right to blow up the chantry.

Can you imagine being made tranquill just because the knight commander doesn't like your face? 

All those mages were being beaten,raped and abused by templars and there aren't suppose to be any repercussions?

I hope we blow up Val Royeaux if theres an expansion

rage isn't even a strong enough emotion for what I feel for the chantry.

Then he should have blown up the Templars, not the Chantry. There's always been tension between mages and the Chantry, but it's usually the Templars who take things too far, just as in Kirkwall. All of the things you state above were done by the Templars, not the Chantry directly. There were several instances in DA2 where it was pretty obvious that the Cleric didn't agree with what the Templars were doing. Could she have done more about it? Yes, definitely. Is wiping out the church going to turn everyone in the church against the mages? Also, definitely. Blowing up the Chantry was a blatantly stupid act that would turn a lot of would-be allies against the mages. Knowing they were capable of doing something like that would cause a lot of people to turn against them that wouldn't have beforehand. Sure, a blood mage could kill a lot of people, but it would be dwarfed by the effect of the equivalent of a magical tac nuke.

The templars are but a millitant arm of the chantry.This wasn't just happening in kirkwall but all over thedas and you mean to tell me the chantry had no idea as a whole?

You want reasons why the chantry should've been blown to hell and back?

Templars killing kids they suspect of being blood mages is not news and condoned by the chantry.

Templars forcing the Curse of tranquility on mages so they are more obediant and less of a risk to the general populace is not news but condoned by the chantry.

children are ripped away from their mothers and fathers and told they have no rites,they can never marry,love,have children of their own or freedom because the chantry says so.

They can do nothing but wander around their prisons till they get old and die or they might be of use in a war because people born without magic have a phobia because the chantry says so.

I agree that templars are needed because well no one wants abominations running rampant but theres a way to do things without restricting someone's human rights.

Their exalted march on the dales is the core reason why hate exist between humans and elves and why elves live as slaves and second rate citizens.

Exalted marches - I think a monastic order that refers to their head as Divinity and perfection that can call holy crusades on any who dare to defy them or their beliefs needs to be checked and micro managed.

Hell they even tell alistair what he can and can't do with his own lands.

In short the chantry has become the new imperium and it  must fall for peace to exist in thedas.

[Just Deb]

My biggest issue with the game was that when I sided with the mages, all the groups of mages that were fighting templars turned into demons and attacked me anyway.  Granted I sided with the mages because I thought it would be my best chance to kill Meredith (I just hated her).  Then the First Enchanter himself uses blood magic and again turns against me.  What a group of ungrateful bastards.

When I played through supporting the templars, they actually assisted me and then went against Meredith at the end... and I was playing a mage at the time.  Most of the time, when I tried to help a mage, they turned out to be evil demon ridden, blood using fiend. 

I am also disappointed that there was NO dialog surrounding attempting to help Anders.   At least in origins you get to ask Wynne if you can do anything to help her.  Also I noticed several templars attempting to help the mages because they disagreed with Meredith in the end... that should have been commented on by Anders at least... (some templars just like mages are good).  I thought it would have been cool maybe to have Anders duped by mages to gather the materials to make a potion to help him... only to find that they used his relationship with the Champion to get the materials... then you find some way to help him but too late to stop the destuction of the Chantry.

I am also disappointed with the use of the codex to tell me what happened with a character during the past 3 years... I know it was probably a money/time saver but it diluted the experience.  

The last thing that really irked me was the game forcing me to do something... I didn't want to be a partner in the mines and said no but then later I am running errands for my "partner".  I wanted to kill the mages who ran away and were caught using blood magic, but they survived to kidnap my brother.  I didn't want to escort the qunari mage out of the city, but got him anyway to escort out.  I think many of the quests give the illusion of choice but ultimately you are stuck with the same result.

[DarkWulfy]

.  I think many of the quests give the illusion of choice but ultimately you are stuck with the same result.

Yea. my favorite quests are the ones where the dialog wheel gives you a 'do not accept' icon, but when you click it the quest-giver just makes up some arbitrary nonsense and tells you to do it anyways, which of course, you do.

[DarkWulfy]

-double post, sorry-

Modifié par DarkWulfy, 18 mars 2011 - 10:42 .

[HolyJellyfish]

BingoParadox wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Worst? Anders is a hero and had every right to blow up the chantry.

Can you imagine being made tranquill just because the knight commander doesn't like your face? 

All those mages were being beaten,raped and abused by templars and there aren't suppose to be any repercussions?

I hope we blow up Val Royeaux if theres an expansion

rage isn't even a strong enough emotion for what I feel for the chantry.

Then he should have blown up the Templars, not the Chantry. There's always been tension between mages and the Chantry, but it's usually the Templars who take things too far, just as in Kirkwall. All of the things you state above were done by the Templars, not the Chantry directly. There were several instances in DA2 where it was pretty obvious that the Cleric didn't agree with what the Templars were doing. Could she have done more about it? Yes, definitely. Is wiping out the church going to turn everyone in the church against the mages? Also, definitely. Blowing up the Chantry was a blatantly stupid act that would turn a lot of would-be allies against the mages. Knowing they were capable of doing something like that would cause a lot of people to turn against them that wouldn't have beforehand. Sure, a blood mage could kill a lot of people, but it would be dwarfed by the effect of the equivalent of a magical tac nuke.

I was under the impression that Anders blew up the Chantry - NOT the Templars - in order to expose just how evil Meredith was.

Anders is ONE guy... One Abomination Guy... who blew up a church... and as a result, Meredith goes INSANE and says that every single Mage in Kirkwall must pay for this ONE crazy guy's actions (That Orsino completely condemns).

He wasn't destroying the chantry for the sake of blowing up a church. He blew up the chantry to expose just how far off the deep end Meredith had gone. He also destroyed the last neutral sanctuary since Eldina was the main issue behind the argument. Nothing would ever be resolved (It hadn't in six years, only grew in tension) so Anders knocked off the middle ground and cast the die.

That's why he attacked the Chantry. Because it wasn't an attack by the mages. It was an attack by him to remove the middle man. Meredith was wrong in blaming them. He exposed that corruption.

[upsettingshorts]

*Insert mandatory point about how Anders is both a revolutionary and a terrorist, depending on your perspective one may outweigh the other - but he's still both*

[Maria Caliban]

BingoParadox wrote...

First, you've got Isabela who stole the Qunari artifact and then kept it when she knew it was the cause of the ENTIRE problem with the Qunari. How many people died because of that whole situation?

No, Isabela was looking for it the entire time. I don't know why people have such difficulty with this.

Then, you've got Anders...

Who was never my PC's friend.

If you were his friend, you'd know he was an abomination who was losing himself to the spirit he'd taken into his body.

[BingoParadox]

Emzamination wrote...

The templars are but a millitant arm of the chantry.This wasn't just happening in kirkwall but all over thedas and you mean to tell me the chantry had no idea as a whole?

That's my point. It wasn't like this everywhere, they made that statement more than once. Meredith had been going overboard for a while. The Circle in Kirkwall was supposed to be the most extreme example.

I guess my bottom line is I don't like fanatics of any stripe, as they are almost always (99.99999% of the time) wrong.

I went ahead and played a bit farther, and found out there is the opportunity to take out Anders, but only after the damage is done. It looks like all of the player's decisions are zero-sum, in that no matter what you choose the end result is exactly the same. I'd also have to echo others that have pointed out that it would appear that when it really mattered, all of the mages proved they were exactly what the Templars said they were. It's so disappointing that so few of them had any integrity.

[Kortok]

When Anders blew up the Chantry I was like

Then I stabbed him to death.  Not only is he a whiny pain in the ass but he is a terrorist.  Honestly killing Anders was one of the few bright spots in the game for me.

[AlexXIV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BingoParadox wrote...

First, you've got Isabela who stole the Qunari artifact and then kept it when she knew it was the cause of the ENTIRE problem with the Qunari. How many people died because of that whole situation?

No, Isabela was looking for it the entire time. I don't know why people have such difficulty with this.

Then, you've got Anders...

Who was never my PC's friend.

If you were his friend, you'd know he was an abomination who was losing himself to the spirit he'd taken into his body.

How like how Merrill tells him in one banter. He speaks about the dangers of bloodmagic and goes all preachy about it, and Merrill just counters something along 'Unlike you I knew there are no good demons from the start.'

[BingoParadox]

OK, so I got to the end. And the lack of integrity is stunning. Almost all of the mages resort to blood magic, and then Meredith resorts to magic in the end, although she has the partial excuse of the lyrium artifact. She was out there to begin with, but it's hard to fathom her resorting to magic after being so rabidly against it the whole game.

[Rafe34]

Emzamination wrote...

The templars are but a millitant arm of the chantry.This wasn't just happening in kirkwall but all over thedas and you mean to tell me the chantry had no idea as a whole?

No, we are clearly told that the Kirkwall Circle and the Templars are far more extreme than the others.

You want reasons why the chantry should've been blown to hell and back?

Templars killing kids they suspect of being blood mages is not news and condoned by the chantry.

Got any proof of that? Or just more of Anders propaganda? Just because a companion tells you something does NOT make it true. Or are you referring to the Mage Origin?

Templars forcing the Curse of tranquility on mages so they are more obediant and less of a risk to the general populace is not news but condoned by the chantry.

The Rite of Tranquility needs to go. Either kill them if they're a blood mage, or don't. There should be no tranquil.

children are ripped away from their mothers and fathers and told they have no rites,they can never marry,love,have children of their own or freedom because the chantry says so.

The alternative is leaving hundreds of potential conduits for demons around Thedas- remember what happened at Redcliffe when Connor was kept from the Circle?

They can do nothing but wander around their prisons till they get old and die or they might be of use in a war because people born without magic have a phobia because the chantry says so.

Many mages enjoy the circle- Wynne and the First Enchanter from Ferelden's circle among them. Is it the best way? Perhaps not. It is not a completely bad way, though.

I agree that templars are needed because well no one wants abominations running rampant but theres a way to do things without restricting someone's human rights.

Re: Redcliffe. If you have a better solution than the Circle, by all means, let's hear it.

Their exalted march on the dales is the core reason why hate exist between humans and elves and why elves live as slaves and second rate citizens.

Agreed. That was an extreme reaction and unnecessary. So would replying to it and other abuses by justifying the slaughter of a dozen or so innocents because they happened to be inside the Chantry and thus were obviously guilty.

Exalted marches - I think a monastic order that refers to their head as Divinity and perfection that can call holy crusades on any who dare to defy them or their beliefs needs to be checked and micro managed.

I would agree that the ability to call crusades needs to go.

Hell they even tell alistair what he can and can't do with his own lands.

Both Alistair/the Monarch and the Chantry should have checks, in a world like ours. I'm not sure Thedas is ready for such a world yet, however.

In short the chantry has become the new imperium and it  must fall for peace to exist in thedas.

No. You attempt to take out the Chantry and stop religion, you will turn most of the populace against you. Religion will always be around, the masses as a whole need to believe in something. If you attack it, if you say that your way is to get rid of the chantry and their religion entirely, you will, or at least should, lose the war.

Answering violence with just more violence only breeds even more violence. You have to stop the abuses, and that may require some blood to be shed, but saying that you want to put the Divine's head on a pike kinda leads me to think you are just like Anders. You can use your arguments to justify ANYTHING if your cause is righteous enough in your eyes. Which, incidentally, and perhaps not so coincendentally, is the exact reason why Merideth, Fenris and many others, fear mages. They can use almost any reason, if they are pressed enough, to justify using blood magic and demons. Some of course, only need curiousity, (Merrill). Some require desperation, (Orcino, Jowan). Some, rage at the loss of a loved one, (Both MageHawkes I have, and Velanna, I think). Some, revenge- even against a fault that wasn't there, (Grace). That is a very real problem, and naively saying that they deserve their rights is ignoring the mountain of evidence we have that Mages, many of them, are a very real threat to bring cataclysmic disasters on Thedas.

Replies in bold.

Modifié par Rafe34, 19 mars 2011 - 03:27 .

[Knightstar2001]

one of the things that bugs me is that there seems to be no evidence or mention really of Abominations appearing as often before the existence of the chantry and the circle as there is now with their existence.
Also there is the fact that the chantry's views regarding mages is tainted from the beginning. They take their beliefs from Andraste and she can't be considered a fair judge regarding mages. She came from a time that was just recovering from the first blight, an event that span 200 years and is believed to have been caused due to the actions of Tevinter Mages. The fact that she was a Slave in a society ruled by Mages gives her even more motive to hate/distrust them. The fact that the chant regarding mages reads "that mages should serve man,not rule over them" seems like something that was colored by her views in light of the Tevinter Imperium then anything inspired by the Maker.

While I do believe that Ander's actions were extreme, I cannot consider The Grand Cleric and the chantry as innocents. You had people like Mother Petrine who took action intended to cause problems among the Qunari and the people of Kirkwall. The Grand Cleric despite how she acts is not innocent, She is guilty of inaction. She knew that there were problems brewing between the templars and the mages, yet took no action to resolve the problems. She took no action to reign the templars in despite the city knowing that they were breaking their own laws in regards to mages. She allows Meredith and the Templars to get involved in the ruling of Kirkwall despite the fact that it not something that they should be doing.(a point that the former Knight-commander made when the White Divine used them to lean on the Former ruler due to her friendship with the emperor of Orlais). She through her refusal to take action allowed the tension to boil to the point where they would be unable to come to a peaceful resolution. Anders by his actions just forced them to stop waiting for the Grand Cleric to take action and do what they were going to do anyways.

Isabella is in more of a grayer area. We find out about the book being the reason the Qunari have stayed,but that isn't why they attack. That's has to do with the killing of the viscount's son(who was a member of the Qunari) and the Leader's disgust with Kirkwall's people. I really doubt that the Qunari wouldn't have been able to find Isabella in the time they've been stuck there. I also see the situation from her side, The Qunari are likely to kill her for stealing the book and Castlion will kill her if she doesn't bring him the book. The Qunari aren't a threat to her outside of Kirkwall and maybe any other Qunari controlled area, so why not skip town and deliver it to the person who could have threaten her in any other areas of thedas.
I'll post more later,but I'll stop here for now. But I just want to point out that each of the characters has a reason for their actions and not all results can be laid at their feet.

[Emzamination]

Rafe34 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The templars are but a millitant arm of the chantry.This wasn't just happening in kirkwall but all over thedas and you mean to tell me the chantry had no idea as a whole?

No, we are clearly told that the Kirkwall Circle and the Templars are far more extreme than the others.

You want reasons why the chantry should've been blown to hell and back?

Templars killing kids they suspect of being blood mages is not news and condoned by the chantry.

Got any proof of that? Or just more of Anders propaganda? Just because a companion tells you something does NOT make it true. Or are you referring to the Mage Origin?

Templars forcing the Curse of tranquility on mages so they are more obediant and less of a risk to the general populace is not news but condoned by the chantry.

The Rite of Tranquility needs to go. Either kill them if they're a blood mage, or don't. There should be no tranquil.

children are ripped away from their mothers and fathers and told they have no rites,they can never marry,love,have children of their own or freedom because the chantry says so.
The alternative is leaving hundreds of potential conduits for demons around Thedas- remember what happened at Redcliffe when Connor was kept from the Circle?

They can do nothing but wander around their prisons till they get old and die or they might be of use in a war because people born without magic have a phobia because the chantry says so.

Many mages enjoy the circle- Wynne and the First Enchanter from Ferelden's circle among them. Is it the best way? Perhaps not. It is not a completely bad way, though.

I agree that templars are needed because well no one wants abominations running rampant but theres a way to do things without restricting someone's human rights.

Re: Redcliffe. If you have a better solution than the Circle, by all means, let's hear it.

Their exalted march on the dales is the core reason why hate exist between humans and elves and why elves live as slaves and second rate citizens.

Agreed. That was an extreme reaction and unnecessary. So would replying to it and other abuses by justifying the slaughter of a dozen or so innocents because they happened to be inside the Chantry and thus were obviously guilty.

Exalted marches - I think a monastic order that refers to their head as Divinity and perfection that can call holy crusades on any who dare to defy them or their beliefs needs to be checked and micro managed.

I would agree that the ability to call crusades needs to go.

Hell they even tell alistair what he can and can't do with his own lands.

Both Alistair/the Monarch and the Chantry should have checks, in a world like ours. I'm not sure Thedas is ready for such a world yet, however.

In short the chantry has become the new imperium and it  must fall for peace to exist in thedas.

No. You attempt to take out the Chantry and stop religion, you will turn most of the populace against you. Religion will always be around, the masses as a whole need to believe in something. If you attack it, if you say that your way is to get rid of the chantry and their religion entirely, you will, or at least should, lose the war.

Answering violence with just more violence only breeds even more violence. You have to stop the abuses, and that may require some blood to be shed, but saying that you want to put the Divine's head on a pike kinda leads me to think you are just like Anders. You can use your arguments to justify ANYTHING if your cause is righteous enough in your eyes. Which, incidentally, and perhaps not so coincendentally, is the exact reason why Merideth, Fenris and many others, fear mages. They can use almost any reason, if they are pressed enough, to justify using blood magic and demons. Some of course, only need curiousity, (Merrill). Some require desperation, (Orcino, Jowan). Some, rage at the loss of a loved one, (Both MageHawkes I have, and Velanna, I think). Some, revenge- even against a fault that wasn't there, (Grace). That is a very real problem, and naively saying that they deserve their rights is ignoring the mountain of evidence we have that Mages, many of them, are a very real threat to bring cataclysmic disasters on Thedas.

Replies in bold.

No, we are clearly told that the Kirkwall Circle and the Templars are far more extreme than the others.

The point wasn't who had the most extreme case but that its happening

No, we are clearly told that the Kirkwall Circle and the Templars are far more extreme than the others.

 Yes wynnes old apprentice tells you they stabbed him the stomach and left him for dead at 13 because he had ran off in her personal quest and morrigan tells you the templars tried to kill both her and her mother while she was still a young girl.

The alternative is leaving hundreds of potential conduits for demons around Thedas- remember what happened at Redcliffe when Connor was kept from the Circle?

I said the chantry had to go not the circle and the alternative would be to ]keep every mage leashed to a phylactery and give responsible enchanters the right to leave the tower if they wished to relocate or start a family.

Agreed. That was an extreme reaction and unnecessary. So would replying to it and other abuses by justifying the slaughter of a dozen or so innocents because they happened to be inside the Chantry and thus were obviously guilty.

It wasn't justified to slaughter thousands of innocent elves just because they happened to be elves either but it was done and the chantry offered no appology for it and still refers to them as heathens if they worship their gods so yes an eye for a eye is perfectly justified.

You don't slaughter an innocent persons family and expect just yourself to be punished.Since you slaughtered their family its only fair yours be slaughtered in turn so you know how it feels.

Many mages enjoy the circle- Wynne and the First Enchanter from Ferelden's circle among them. Is it the best way? Perhaps not. It is not a completely bad way, though.

Wynne tells you she enjoyed the circle but also wished for a family and was angry because it was denied to her.You can do nothing but accept something your forced into when your given to real option otherwise.

I would agree that the ability to call crusades needs to go.

The kings and queens of thedas should've put an end to it after the first one.When the religious order gets the power to call wars I believe its time for a thorough power regulation.

Both Alistair/the Monarch and the Chantry should have checks, in a world like ours. I'm not sure Thedas is ready for such a world yet, however.

well as far as alistair goes...Hes basically an influential boyscout who will always try to do whats right so I don't really see him as a threat.The chantry should've been regulated after the dales and those lands should of been returned to the elves post haste.


No. You attempt to take out the Chantry and stop religion, you will turn most of the populace against you. Religion will always be around, the masses as a whole need to believe in something. If you attack it, if you say that your way is to get rid of the chantry and their religion entirely, you will, or at least should, lose the war.

Why must all belief in the maker die with the chantry? Keep some temples in towns and citys with a revered mother and let that be the extent of it as it should've been all along.


Answering violence with just more violence only breeds even more violence. You have to stop the abuses, and that may require some blood to be shed, but saying that you want to put the Divine's head on a pike kinda leads me to think you are just like Anders. You can use your arguments to justify ANYTHING if your cause is righteous enough in your eyes. Which, incidentally, and perhaps not so coincendentally, is the exact reason why Merideth, Fenris and many others, fear mages. They can use almost any reason, if they are pressed enough, to justify using blood magic and demons. Some of course, only need curiousity, (Merrill). Some require desperation, (Orcino, Jowan). Some, rage at the loss of a loved one, (Both MageHawkes I have, and Velanna, I think). Some, revenge- even against a fault that wasn't there, (Grace). That is a very real problem, and naively saying that they deserve their rights is ignoring the mountain of evidence we have that Mages, many of them, are a very real threat to bring cataclysmic disasters on Thedas.

The divine is a tyrant or have you forgotten where she contemplates sending an exalted march against the dwarves at the end of origins? Her death is necessary not only for her person but also as an example to the rest of the body.Sorry but war isn't sweet and sugary and sacrifices and examples need to be made for voices to finally be heard.

The chantry has given reason for their own demise with one thousand years of abusing human rights.The only reason they don't allow mages to have children is because they're trying to breed magic out of the world all together.

As I said before...templars are necessary but not to the degree the chantry is using them

As Far as the blood magic goes...When you back an animal into a corner and it has no where else to go of course its going to come out clawing and biting to survive.Also velanna never consorted with blood magic or demons. 






Edit: Somehow color doesn't want to stick <_<

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[Hyper_gateway]

What a thread! It took me to finish reading all replies more than 30 mins, you guys rocks!

Anyways, here's my thought regarding the thread.

I wasn't surprise Isabela will turn on me, but did so when she risk her life and return the relic. There are always people at the same shoe as Isabela is, the only different is how your own POV affect your feeling on her actions. To me, it is always nice to see my friend have somehow turn out to have the heart to face his/her "crime", that is why I backed her up on the duel with Arishok. (The was really a tough fight.)

About Anders, he is completely changed since the joining with Justice, it is ourselves that not paying too much attention and hoping he will be changed by our reaction/comments on him. I was Jaw-dropped when the Chantry was blown up, and it left me no choice to kill him; I do struggle alittle to take Merrill's advise to take him with us but his extreme action have proven he meant to do it and willing to face the 'penalty' at will.

Do I feel betraied? From Isabela. nope 'cus I can foreseeing it But Anders? Yes, totally break my trust on him.

[BingoParadox]

By her own admission, Isabela knew what she was causing when she stole the artifact. She stole it to sell to the Tevinters and she knew it was a highly significant religious icon to the Qunari. She had to expect that the Qunari would come after her anywhere in the world she went once they found out about her part in it. She's a smart lady, she had to have known the repercussions of stealing that artifact. Stealing something that important from a group like the Qunari would have dire consequences. That theft is what brought the Qunari to Kirkwall in the first place, and thus everything that followed was caused by her - including the death of the Viscount and his son. The fact that she brought it back is no recompense, as she had to have realized that the Qunari would now know about her part in it and there was nowhere she could have gone to escape them. To paraphrase, she could have gone to Indonesia and there would have a been a Qunari popping out of a bowl of rice to pop a cap in her ass. The Champion was the only one that could get her out of it.

Anders not only used the Champion as a distraction to place the weapon, he lied to the Champion about the actual reason for all of those ingredients he supposedly needed for a potion to rid himself of Justice's influence. He knew he couldn't gather them himself, so he came up with the bogus idea of the elixir as an excuse to gather the components for his bomb. He played on the Champion's desire to help, and the fact that the Champion had stood up for him on multiple occasions didn't make any difference to him. He had no problem implicating the Champion in the murder just to force him to make a choice. Just another fanatic who was sure that his way was the only way, and the number of deaths on all sides didn't matter to him.

Almost every character in this story went on to prove every negative thing said about them was true. Not a single one of them aside from Varric and Aveline had any integrity or backbone. Of course, Varric was never anything but what he represented himself to be, and Aveline actually went from nothing to Captain of the Guard with honor.

The storyline of the Champion is one of loss and failure. He tried to protect those who it turned out were not deserving of any protection, and in the end didn't change a damn thing. The Champion accomplished NOTHING he/she set out to do, and lost everything he/she tried to build.

Modifié par BingoParadox, 19 mars 2011 - 09:25 .

[Vilegrim]

BingoParadox wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The templars are but a millitant arm of the chantry.This wasn't just happening in kirkwall but all over thedas and you mean to tell me the chantry had no idea as a whole?

That's my point. It wasn't like this everywhere, they made that statement more than once. Meredith had been going overboard for a while. The Circle in Kirkwall was supposed to be the most extreme example.

I guess my bottom line is I don't like fanatics of any stripe, as they are almost always (99.99999% of the time) wrong.

I went ahead and played a bit farther, and found out there is the opportunity to take out Anders, but only after the damage is done. It looks like all of the player's decisions are zero-sum, in that no matter what you choose the end result is exactly the same. I'd also have to echo others that have pointed out that it would appear that when it really mattered, all of the mages proved they were exactly what the Templars said they were. It's so disappointing that so few of them had any integrity.

if she went to far it was the Grand Clerics or the Divines duty to stop her, neither did.   Make all templars and chantry priest deaf blind quadrapegics for what they have allowed to happen to the mages, and keep them like that for a decade with magic, then have them claim tranquility is mercy.

[Rafe34]

@Emzaniation: And what if a mage does not want to be leashed to a phylactery, so that the government knows where he is at all times? Do you force it on them?

Mages use blood magic a lot more than just when they are forced into a corner. How was Merrill forced into a corner? Grace?

You are essentially saying that because people have done something one way for a thousand years, we should hold everyone within that system guilty for its abuses, destroy the entire system, and dictate to the masses that you are going to have our way, (no chantry, and just a few temples here and there), period.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath-water. The Circle is a necessary evil to prevent an even greater one.

I don't remember Wynne's apprentice, I shall have to look him up. As for Morrigan, the templars came after them because of Flemeth. You know, the crazy demon lady who kidnaps little girls from their families and then possesses their bodies so she can live for thousands of years? Yeah, she's kinda the definition of evil- they were after her. We are given no evidence beyond Morrigan's word that they were even aware of her- and how would the templars tracking her and what she thought to be her mother down, look to a little girl? Of course it looks like they're trying to kill her, because they know what Flemeth is/was.

Keeping every mage leashed to a phylactery merely allows you to know where one who has turned into a blood mage, is. It will not give you enough time to actually stop their initial rampage, just you will be able to eventually kill them after they've killed many innocents. Big whoop.

I'm saying, that if you, in essence, launch a holy war AGAINST the chantry, you will turn the populace on you. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of tactics, and knowing how the masses think. You point out the flaws in the system, and you get people agreeing with you, and then you have enough support to fix those flaws. If you start out by saying that the Divine needs to die because of what she was contemplating doing- which I honestly can't believe you said that, especially since you get that from the same epilogue that says Morrigan may even be pregnat, when you very well could have ended Origins so that she was not, and regardless, we don't execute people for what they contemplate doing- you're going to turn many people against you that would be fine trying to fix the Chantry's flaws.

War is messy, but some are not worth winning at any cost. Especially not when you can achieve your goals far easier than saying you want "the Divine's head on a pike." It immediately brands your rebellion as extreme and limits the number of people who might wish to join you, while bringing in more people who are willing to do anything to bring down the Chantry. Sure, you might eventually bring it down, but is it worth it if you destroy Thedas in the process?

Modifié par Rafe34, 19 mars 2011 - 05:47 .

[Rune-Chan]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Ookay... not sure why having companions that would be in complete agreement with what you do and never cross you no matter what, would make for a better story... but you guys can keep on rambling anyway.

Exactly. I despised Anders and Isabela for what they did, but kudos for Bioware for not making it all soft.

In Mass Effect 2 for example you can spout hatred about Cerberus all day and all night but Miranda can still love you. You can show no sympathy for the Quarians, get Tali exiled, take Veetor to an Anti-Alien terrorist organisation and she is still in love with you.