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The Mantle of the Champion (or: how not to do motivation)


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#1
S_I_a_D

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Before anyone "calls me out" on my join date: Yeah, I signed up exclusively to criticize Dragon Age 2. Deal with it.
Now on to the topic.

One aspect that gets me hooked on RPGs is the sense of mystery, exploration and discovery. The sense of accomplishment when I discover something awesome that wasn't basically thrown at me by the game. Two examples off the top of my head: Modron Maze in Planescape. Or how you discover the military base in Fallout 2, lie or sneak your way in, and score the ultimate armor of the game.

Then there's Dragon Age II.
How do you get the Mantle of the Champion, i.e. the (to my knowledge) best armor in the game? By following the main quest.
That's right: you get the ultimate armor by doing exactly what the game prescribes (Apart from killing the dragon. However, that's also something which I'm certain 99% of all players will most definitely do in their first playthrough). That's not exactly fantastic in and of itself IMO, but I could deal with it if it came as a cool surprise.
Alas, not only is the armor in the faux prologue, it's also in every trailer, promo art, and even in the goddamn character selection menu. I ended up with exactly the equipment the developers obviously intended for pretty much every player to have. Way to make me feel accomplished.
I realize that's how games work, i.e. developers design them in a way that invites players to get the very best stuff at some point. But the art, imo, is to make it at least a little more subtle than "HEY LOOK, THIS IS HOW BADASS YOU (and everyone else) WILL BE IN THE END!" This is even worse than the Metroid cliche of "Whoops, looks like your Varia suit got gimped from godlike power to crap in the first 5 minutes of the game. Time to restore it for the next 15 hours." At least you usually end up with slightly different suits and powers by the end in those games.

This might look petty to you, but as I see it, it's just a symptom of a disease that has infested Dragon Age 2: lack of motivation. I do sidequest after sidequest and get crap like 2 gold, 3 gold, 5 gold. I loot every container in desperate hopes of cool rewards and get "Junk", "[Superior, Elven] [Whatever]", "[Ornate, Demonic, Whatever] [Belt, Ring, Amulet]" (which I don't even get to see outside of their generic  icons).
And maybe the odd semi-cool item, although that's usually reserved for Main Story quests.
Oh wait, I can't use it because it's not for my class and/or it's armor, which companions don't want.

Where are the huge hoards of treasure? (Even the big bosses often drop generic crap, and not too much of it) Where are the mysterious ancient vaults? I could deal with mediocre loot if at least the story surrounding these quests were slightly more intriguing. But all I generally get is "kthxbye". 80% of this game's sidequests are literally a complete throwback to the atrocious cookie cutter planet missions of Mass Effect 1.

Now I realize this game is no Diablo, and it shouldn't try to be. It's not about the loot primarily. But there was seriously nothing motivating me to continue questing apart from the (ultimately futile) hope of discovering something, anything cool. It didn't feel like a journey, it didn't feel like an adventure, it felt like a grind.

Disclaimer:  I've done every sidequest I could find in the game, amounting to roughly 40 hours of playtime. There might be a few I missed, but I have little doubt they would play out the exact same way.

Modifié par S_I_a_D, 18 mars 2011 - 12:47 .


#2
Ke11iente

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I have to agree with all of this.

The armor is especially frustrating.

#3
Witherface

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+1

#4
Nathan Redgrave

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*cough*DRAGONBONE*cough*

#5
S_I_a_D

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Thanks for commenting. With every thread getting loads of replies, I was starting to think I had posted something seriously stupid when mine got ignored for so long. :unsure:

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

*cough*DRAGONBONE*cough*


Uh... you lost me. Are you talking about Wade's items from Origins?

#6
S_I_a_D

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Shameless bump.

#7
S_I_a_D

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Final bump. I promise. ;>_>
Just wanted to read a few more opinions on this issue.
And what's up with the Dragonbone??

#8
Jaymo147

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No clue what he means by dragon bone, but I completely agree with you.
I can't wait until they release a toolset (or modders make the one we have compatible).
It will literally stop almost all complaining.

#9
Windkun

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(You'd know what Dragonbone was if you had played DRAGON AGE ORIGINS, you don't even have any owned games activated.... piracy? or just a demo player, its ok! and the bumps.... pathetic. you just want to get trash talk so you can post it somewhere "SEE EVERYONE AGREES!") shameless. - also I like the private profile! very secretive? perhaps you got banned or something prior? - also I just started act 3 with 67 hours of in game time doing every possible quest. all party members already at 100%, all gifts and upgrades possible up to act 3 have been gotten.

I think it looks great, and hell - why not get the ... best armor in the game... at the end of the game? and show it off in promos? What is so bad about that? Next are you going to complain about DAO how the trailer had a warrior in really cool looking armor that never surfaced?! or maybe how we have some of the coolest looking armor automatically *(Blood Dragon Armor, Sir issac of Clarke Dead Space 2 Armor) if you own those games.

-yawn- one of those 15-16 year old kids who makes an acount JUST to bash on a game. Instead of doing so, why not just.... not post? you had to go through the trouble to make an account - hell the game isn't even under your avatar, that makes me assume you do not legally own the game.

so either you pirated the game, or maybe you NEVR EVEN PLAYED IT ASIDE FROM THE DEMO. I don't know - anyone can acquire info from online.... OR I could be wrong and you just didn't register your game (which is quite stupid since you can't use ANY DLC?)

I'm gonna guess either non player as first option, or he downloaded illegal cracked copy and played it for 30 minutes.

Hello new guy with no owned games!

(and just to state, Dragon Age DLC that I've owned etc is in my owned list, but doesn't show up for an odd reason under my avatar, I got dragon age 1 in pre-order etc it used to be registered and is on EA's site. makes me wonder if it got bugged during the overhaul of biowars site)

lets count how many threads are made by the OP

Modifié par Windkun, 19 mars 2011 - 10:13 .


#10
The Brigand

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If I had a million dollars, I'd buy every single copy of Dragon Age II I could find, write down all the registry codes, then start passing them out so that this "No registered games = PIRATE PIRATE LIAR LIAR" bullcrap would cease.

Alas, I don't have the money to even buy my own copy of Dragon Age II yet. Saving up what I have for the 3DS instead.

#11
Travie

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Jaymo147 wrote...

No clue what he means by dragon bone, but I completely agree with you.
I can't wait until they release a toolset (or modders make the one we have compatible).
It will literally stop almost all complaining.


I honestly doubt many modders will invest their time in this. At this point almost all motivation to do so is gone.

#12
Windkun

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Its a possibility, he just made an account.... and so many people base the entire game off of the demo of which as most people who praise the game even say was mediocre. I loved it personally but the first 3-4 hours is very slow and gives a not very good impression of the game...

anyway,I see you own origins, thats groovy, alot of people didn't dig the expansion but I loved it, not nearly as much as Origins but some good characters the best being Anders and Justice (for new characters.. only had Oghren... for old) and now in DA2 with have Anders and Justice in one body as a character! perfect! Ser-pounce-a-lot is missed. His tragic death in the opening cinematic made me cry. -laughs- He's gone but... no tragic death in the opening... I was gonna keep that for people who havent played yet to be like "They show a kitty get killed?! ser pounce a lot?!???" - but really... Anders has controversy in this game from fans of him from Awakening but I like the dark twist on his character... and over all love the dark depression that the games story just keeps going through, dark plot with dark twists... you don't get the whole "I saved the world, everyones cheering for me" I got during my 5 completions of origins.... (always survived as the lead char :P) the game is just a step below Oigins IMO. if origins is a 10/10 then DA2 is a 9.5 or so.

It's obvious Dragon Age 3 will happen after the end to 2, and I think 3 story wise and potential characters / literally everything could make it the absolute best epic ending to a trilogy ever - they made it so its realistic as a third game if it follows the very "Nudge Nudge we are doing a mass effect type thing, but not like ME1-2 but like 2-3"


With all that rambling said - I think I can take waiting to the end of the game to get pieces of the really cool armor set that is displayed on the commercials and promos.... You want to see the champion of kirkwall... not the refugee in torn clothing. I am really MISSING YOUR POINT. what are you trying to get across?

#13
Warheadz

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This is the first time ever I am saying this to anyone, but Windkun, you are a pathetic "fanboy" (or a troll).

#14
CRISIS1717

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Warheadz wrote...

This is the first time ever I am saying this to anyone, but Windkun, you are a pathetic "fanboy" (or a troll).


I don't think any Bioware employee types like that, or maybe these pr guys are getting smarter at imitating forum users? 

#15
Windkun

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edit: Excuse me how am I the
troll? I was not bumping a thread made by a suspecious new user with no
registered games about how armor shown on all the promos you don't get
until the end, and he bumped the thread twice - if nobody wants
torespond, theres a reason its not being responded to! I'm afraid I may have just made his thread popular.. in which case I will stop replying unless any legit questions are asked.... I do
not appreciate being called a troll though, I have done nothing but
give good feedback, and posted a walkthrough to a very good quest from
ACT 2 via youtube on max settings and high res pack/dx11 etc 15 min
video at 1080P. I think I am rather fair, just
because I think the game is a 9.5 doesn't make me a fanboy... it means I
really enjoyed the game. (PC Gamers 9.4, must
be a fanboy, some of the more "news" or "entertainment / movie"
magazines reviewing it suprisied me and some of the 9/10 and 10/10 that
don't make it to metacritic for whatever reason surprised me, and you
can tell some of those reviewers are not super knowledgeable you know
you played dragon age 1, maybe didnt complete it but hopefully did...
but one reviewer called it the world of Feralden. so... The rest of his
review was solid and honest and a really nice 9/10 review... he must be a
fanboy.

I am just defending what I think
is right, and if he owns the game legit i apologize... If my initial
assumption is correct, I am against piracy because it makes developers
lash out on us! the PC gaming comminty and we end up getting buggy ports
of games (especially FPS's nowadays)






Travie wrote...

Jaymo147 wrote...

No clue what he means by dragon bone, but I completely agree with you.
I can't wait until they release a toolset (or modders make the one we have compatible).
It will literally stop almost all complaining.


I honestly doubt many modders will invest their time in this. At this point almost all motivation to do so is gone.



For DA2 a toolset is one of the most sought after things in the modding community, especially with the new graphic and combat engines....... Google around and look at the exciting ideas people are pushing around for DA2 toolset.. I know I'd be rocking it instantly.. I'll do your Dragon Bone. You made it seem like nobody is enthusiastic about the game enoug hto bother to create a mod?! atleast thats how it came off.... Everyone I know that owns the game (Some of them on consoles, unfortunately for them) have nothing but praise. one guy I met in class I noticed him wearing a DA2 shirt, so I talked to him and he was tellling me how many times he played origins and that he is 10 hours into DA2 - and that he likes the combat engine more than the first, but he doesn't pay attention to combat when it comes to games like DA/DA2, he wants the epic story, the personal approach to characters, the small intricate details in codex's... he thinks of it like an interactive novel, he compared it to Tolkien, and then compared this to Tolkien meets (forget the author, but has done very political fantasy, well fantasy may be a bad word but political medival - and this was coming from at first glance I thought would not be the type to play DA2. I goto Full Sail, I'm a musician in Recording Arts, as is he but he is a rapper.. making rap beats... lets just put it that way, so to hear that its all about story from him blew me away and I totally talked about how much I love this games story AND the gameplay + graphics and I admitted that gameplay and graphics matter to me majorly, almost equal to the story, and boasted the DX11 and high res pack etc.- his buddies in that clique all came out of class "YO I WAS PLAYIN' BLACK OPS MAN AND FN OUT OF NOWHERE FN FN GOT CORNERED AND SH*T YKNOW WHAT IMA SAYING?  THEN I" (blocks ears and walks away.. hates hearing loud "excited" conversations about one of the worst First Person shooters (that was overhyped) of all time that happened to sell the most because of the same reason jersey shore pulls in so much money.

back to my point, from all my friends to even someone I met that I didn't think by apperance (terrible of me but we all think of people by how they look at first, what theyre personality may be like in other words). so everyone of my friends adore the game, that age group is 23-35. My online buddies from other games I played etc all love the game.... and my closest buddy down here where I am getting my masters - I bought him origins a month before the demo of 2 came out, and he blasted through origins like it was a drug I got the steam version with all the DLC's for em... the Dragon Age 2 demo came out during his final of the four main treaties, basically prior to prep for landsmeet and he played it and immediately pre-ordered DA2. I haven't seen him not playing the game from launch until yesterday (assume he is hung over today from st patricks day). Normally he only plays WoW ( -___- ) he stayed at my condo for a month and all he'd do is raid, and talk about wow, then go raid more while listening to metal - totally cool dude but too much wow.. and I'm glad I turned him onto a franchise he was able to really dig, and the second one I think is REALLY resonatign with him. - he's someone who didn't complete ME2 because he lost interest after a companion got mad at another companion, and he was about to do another companion quest the next day then just never touched it again as he explained while tlaking about much he loved DA2.


We are here. We'll make the darn armor.

Modifié par Windkun, 19 mars 2011 - 10:43 .


#16
blacqout

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You have to go to quite a lot of extra work to locate the Celebrant - which i would consider to be the best two handed sword in the game.

To be honest, i don't remember any of the better armours being too difficult to find in Origins. The Juggernaut and Legion armours all came with an associated quest which pretty much let you know where to look.

The Keening Blade was probably the most elusive item in Origins, and it wasn't much more difficult to locate than the Celebrant.

#17
JaegerBane

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To be honest, I don't think there's much justification to criticise something like this. I mean, at best, it's minor - DA:O didn't exactly hide it's best gear. As has been said the best armour in the base game (like the Mantle, featured in most of the media in the case of the Juggernaut) was pretty simple to find - Legion and Juggernaut armours even had a trail of codex entries and breadcrumbs to follow. The same went for DLCs - the Blood Dragon armour pieces were either located for you or even handed to you and the Warden Commander armour's location was given away in DLC's trailer.

Ultimately, while DA2 undoubtedly has issues, I don't really think there's much reason to consider this one of them.

I'm kinda glad they displayed it in the prologue too - I personally think it looks awesome and it gave me something to look for.

#18
Witherface

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Windkun wrote...

Travie wrote...

Jaymo147 wrote...

No clue what he means by dragon bone, but I completely agree with you.
I can't wait until they release a toolset (or modders make the one we have compatible).
It will literally stop almost all complaining.


I honestly doubt many modders will invest their time in this. At this point almost all motivation to do so is gone.


Incessant rambling


Can't tell if troll, or just stupid.

#19
S_I_a_D

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Windkun wrote...

Wordswordswords...

You want to see the champion of kirkwall... not the refugee in torn clothing.


...dude.

Well, skimming through your posts, most of them are nonsense, which I won't even comment on... but this part caught my attention. In a similar vein, JaegerBane wrote...

I'm kinda glad they displayed it in the prologue too - I personally think it looks awesome and it gave me something to look for.


This could be the difference between us.

I want to forge my own path, create my own story.
You want to be "The Champion of Kirkwall" (which they told you you'd become).

I want to discover awesome treasures and armors.
You want to wear the Mantle of the Champion (which they told you'd get and showed you over and over).

I don't want to "look forward" to sh** when I fire up a new RPG. I want to go "WHOOOAA I DIDN'T KNOW THIS WOULD HAPPEN!"

To blacqout and JaegerBane: I never said I considered Origins vastly superior in regards to this issue. It has plagued Bioware games since Mass Effect 1 imo. However, Origins was a slight improvement, which is why this complete relapse in DA2 was such a disappointment. Mass Effect 2 was (as many others have stated) alright because it didn't even try to give you that kind of experience. It was a mission based third person shooter with lots of dialogue. No need for discoveries and looting. If it had given me this kind of crap, you bet I would've been in the ME section of the forums, whining and complaining.
As I said, the problem isn't the Mantle. It's the fact 90% of all quest rewards are crap, storywise and equipment-wise. I'm not motivated to do them because I know it won't be worth my time. As I also said, I still did them all, but it was a waste of time in hindsight. Not a single surprise for me in all of DA2's sidequests.

But yeah, if you guys like it when only the stuff you always expected actually happens, I guess that's your taste. And if this is truly how "modern gamers" like their RPGs, then Bioware is right in making them that way. And I guess I'm just another old guy who can't adapt to the gamer zeitgeist.
This is the new sh**, and I'm not ready for it. Do I get it? No. Do I want it? ....most definitely no.

Modifié par S_I_a_D, 19 mars 2011 - 06:30 .


#20
sleepyowlet

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OP, don't mind those "holier than thou" types.

I felt exactly the same. My Lady Hawke got out of her fugly starter-robe in the Deep Roads. Yikes. And I loved the gear-related quests in DA:O - you worked for it, and in the end you had a *shiny* that you felt like you really, really deserved. Not some random drop that you pick up and wear because the stats are better. In Origins my Arcane Warrior spent the rest of the game with Branka's Shield strapped to her back, because she felt that this dwarf should be remembered as the great woman she used to be. These items meant something beyond cool stats. They had a story, and the description of the Armor of Diligence even said that it was engraved with pictures of Mabari. I loved that. (that and the plaid breeches :D)

And you'll notice that I haven't any games registered either, though I own KOTOR 1+2, the Ultimate Edition of DA:O, NWN 1+2, and the complete BG series. DA2 I rented. Thank the gods. I don't register games. Period. That's just something I don't do.

#21
Persephone

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Travie wrote...

Jaymo147 wrote...

No clue what he means by dragon bone, but I completely agree with you.
I can't wait until they release a toolset (or modders make the one we have compatible).
It will literally stop almost all complaining.


I honestly doubt many modders will invest their time in this. At this point almost all motivation to do so is gone.


DA Nexus politely disagrees.:whistle:

#22
Persephone

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S_I_a_D wrote...

Before anyone "calls me out" on my join date: Yeah, I signed up exclusively to criticize Dragon Age 2. Deal with it.
Now on to the topic.


Well, that saved me from reading a wall of text. <_<

#23
Persephone

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CRISIS1717 wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

This is the first time ever I am saying this to anyone, but Windkun, you are a pathetic "fanboy" (or a troll).


I don't think any Bioware employee types like that, or maybe these pr guys are getting smarter at imitating forum users? 


Your ridiculous paranoia makes Loghain look carefree, you know that?

#24
S_I_a_D

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Persephone wrote...

Well, that saved me from reading a wall of text. <_<


Yup, my intent invalidates my opinions. How silly of me to foolishly reveal my lack of qualification to argue a point.

#25
sleepyowlet

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Persephone wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

This is the first time ever I am saying this to anyone, but Windkun, you are a pathetic "fanboy" (or a troll).


I don't think any Bioware employee types like that, or maybe these pr guys are getting smarter at imitating forum users? 


Your ridiculous paranoia makes Loghain look carefree, you know that?


Uh, actually, if you open the toolset and look at the text - I've seen some things there (spelling, grammar, wording) that made my eyes water. And I'm not even a native speaker...

But your comparison was made of WIN and made me LOL!