68 réponses à ce sujet

[Eventide]

 

Basically, the ending was atrocious for such a long game and it isn't fair to gamers at all.  

Was anyone else disappointed by the ending? Why or why not? 

[shai-hulud-lama]

another thread? again? there might be some existing ones dealing with the ending.....

[Clonedzero]

i wasnt disappointed at all. thought it was a bit over the top, but it was still good.

watched the video and the guy doesnt know what he's talking about. ive seen more valid arguments on the forums here.

[brazen_nl]

I was disappointed on my first playthrough, I mean, really disappointed. However, after a couple of plays, the best ending for me is killing Anders, siding with the Templars, getting Bethany back and then killing off Knight Commander Meredith. That is at least an ending I can accept, bearing in mind the parts of the story that can't be influenced, especially Anders destroying the Chantry.

[Eventide]

There's no "valid argument," it's an opinion, and I related with his.

[AlexXIV]

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil. DA2 is much more political motivated and you get to make political choices. Meep. Wrong. No political choices as far as I could see. The DA2 narrative which spans over ten years makes it possible for us to let the player make decisions which consequeses can be seen and felt even in the game, and not just in the epilogue. Meep. Wrong. You make choices, but they don't change anything.

Now for the end game.

Cleary they will import two possible outcomes into DA3. Mage supporter and templar supporter. And this decision you make at the end of the game, ignoring every single choice you made before. I don't even think the save game import in DA3 will recognize that you could be mage supporter up to the end and then in the last moment decide to help the templars. Or other way round. It is just the basic binary choice. 0 or 1.

After Anders blows up the Chantry, this are the facts. Anders steps forward, admits he did it and why, even showing off his blue glowing eyes. Meredith connects Anders to Hawke as a friend or at least companion. Though her first action is not to arrest or kill Anders or Hawke. Her first reasoning is 'The Circle is beyond help, I declare the Right of Annulment'. Obviously not because the Circle is behind it, but because the Grand Cleric isn't there anymore to stop her. Which may make sense for Meredith to act like this. But why does anyone actually support her. Cullen, the templars. He even stands there and tells her this is wrong but does not intervene. And we know he could, which he did later anyway.

So you are forced to pick a side. Because for some reason grapping your sister and friends and leave is no option because you are the 'Champion of Kirkwall'. Why? Meredith says because the Champion, even if it is a title and not really an position of power or duty, has to restore order by siding with the templars. So you get the choice to side with the templars. Or mages ... what? You are forced to pick a side and because you owe it to kirkwall to be siding with either the mages or templars? Makes no sense. What would make sense is to leave or help the city guards preventing the worst for the citizens.

It is a really weak plot. Forced and just unsatisfying. And my greatest fear, if we get to play Hawke in DA3 is that maybe you will merely be labeled 'mage supporter' or 'templar supporter' based on only the last decission of the whole game, ignoring everything else you did. Which sort of reduces the whole game to a binary decision. 0 or 1. For this we would not have needed a whole game. They could just have made us choose support mage or support templars in the beginning of DA3.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[Clonedzero]

Eventide wrote...

There's no "valid argument," it's an opinion, and I related with his.

no i mean alot of what he said was wrong. like as in not actually true.

most of his whole complaint was that he didnt understand who leliana was or who the warden was, its just genreally accepted to at least be familiar with the previous title in a series. i don't watch a movie and get mad i dont understand it because i didnt see the one before it in the series.

that was basically the main thing he talked about. he pulled out a note pad with really vague and inaccurate notes about DA:O

so he didnt really seem to know wtf he was talking about. and yeah i watched the video.

[SlamminHams]

My biggest story beef is that this entire game, in context to the rest of Thedas, can be summed up in 2 minutes of dialogue.

AlexXIV wrote...

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil. DA2 is much more political motivated and you get to make political choices. Meep. Wrong. No political choices as far as I could see. The DA2 narrative which spans over ten years makes it possible for us to let the player make decisions which consequeses can be seen and felt even in the game, and not just in the epilogue. Meep. Wrong. You make choices, but they don't change anything.

This.

[Clonedzero]

SlamminHams wrote...

My biggest story beef is that this entire game, in context to the rest of Thedas, can be summed up in 2 minutes of dialogue.

AlexXIV wrote...

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil. DA2 is much more political motivated and you get to make political choices. Meep. Wrong. No political choices as far as I could see. The DA2 narrative which spans over ten years makes it possible for us to let the player make decisions which consequeses can be seen and felt even in the game, and not just in the epilogue. Meep. Wrong. You make choices, but they don't change anything.

This.

can't DA:O be described the same way though?

the warden united various groups around fereldan to fight the darkspawn horde in denerium where the warden defeated and killed the archdemon preventing the blight.

i just summed up DA:O in like a single sentance. doesnt make it a bad game lol

[Eventide]

Clonedzero wrote...

Eventide wrote...

There's no "valid argument," it's an opinion, and I related with his.

no i mean alot of what he said was wrong. like as in not actually true.

most of his whole complaint was that he didnt understand who leliana was or who the warden was, its just genreally accepted to at least be familiar with the previous title in a series. i don't watch a movie and get mad i dont understand it because i didnt see the one before it in the series.

that was basically the main thing he talked about. he pulled out a note pad with really vague and inaccurate notes about DA:O

so he didnt really seem to know wtf he was talking about. and yeah i watched the video.

The main point he talked about was that the ending doesn't give any sense of explanation or closure.  I don't really understand what you're going on about.  He brought up Leliana because you can have multiple endings with her in Origins, but that doesn't mesh well when she just shows up out of the blue in DA2 with no explanation. 

[Yrkoon]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

[AlexXIV]

Yrkoon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

It's ancient and if it makes people crazy it is obviously evil. Or do you think that's a good thing? I don't know that lyrium as such drives people crazy or is to be considered evil. It causes addiction though. Anyway, lyrium isn't inherently evil. The idol is. It drives everyone who owns it mad. Which makes me conclude that it is corrupted.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[SlamminHams]

Clonedzero wrote...

so he didnt really seem to know wtf he was talking about. and yeah i watched the video.

I think you were missing his point.  It's perfectly acceptable for video games to segue into their scheduled sequels.  Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, and Starcraft 2 all, for example, left plotlines open to continue in the next installment.  However, the main goal for that title was always achieved;  Shepard kills Sovereign, Altair kills Al Mualim, Jim kills/saves Kerrigan.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 is that really didn't happen, since the main motivation is completely ambiguous.  Shepard is a marine, then a Spectre, so his duty is clear.  Altair is an assassin who gets betrayed.  Jim loves Sarah.  Their motivations are all clear.  Hawke, on the otherhand, is basically a GTA character thrust into Thedas, where the main objective is to get rich and live in Hightown.

[AlexXIV]

SlamminHams wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

so he didnt really seem to know wtf he was talking about. and yeah i watched the video.

I think you were missing his point.  It's perfectly acceptable for video games to segue into their scheduled sequels.  Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, and Starcraft 2 all, for example, left plotlines open to continue in the next installment.  However, the main goal for that title was always achieved;  Shepard kills Sovereign, Altair kills Al Mualim, Jim kills/saves Kerrigan.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 is that really didn't happen, since the main motivation is completely ambiguous.  Shepard is a marine, then a Spectre, so his duty is clear.  Altair is an assassin who gets betrayed.  Jim loves Sarah.  Their motivations are all clear.  Hawke, on the otherhand, is basically a GTA character thrust into Thedas, where the main objective is to get rich and live in Hightown.

Which fails because even if Hawke becomes Viscount (which only happens if he/she helps the templars) he/she disappears a year or two later. So nothing gained, mother dead. Summary of the game.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[Kesica]

I do agree with him but what a rant.

Do you think he will be buying future DLCs?

[OLDIRTYBARON]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

It's ancient and if it makes people crazy it is obviously evil. Or do you think that's a good thing? I don't know that lyrium as such drives people crazy or is to be considered evil. It causes addiction though. Anyway, lyrium isn't inherently evil. The idol is. It drives everyone who owns it mad. Which makes me conclude that it is corrupted.

Wrong.

The idol - and this is inferred from the game itself - amplifies dominant emotions. If you're a selfish bastard at heart but your conscience and ties to family keeps you from strangling your younger brother, the idol amplifies your base emotion until it overrides your, for lack of a better term, conscience. All the people who held the idol in Dragon Age 2 did not "go mad" or become power hungry or turn dark side. Both the Champion and Varric held the idol (or were in a asshair's reach of it in proximity), and neither of them turned on their family, killed random innocents, or went around waving their junk at old women while barking at the moon. The two people who really had control of the idol were unstable or complete pricks to begin with, so for them their base emotions of greed and paranoia were amplified by the idol.

Also, what of the people who handled the Idol as it passed from Bartrand to (eventually) Meredith? How come we heard nothing of merchants and labourers going mad and pissing out their buttholes (I'm told that's a manifestation of evil in at least 37 states)? You'd think Varric and all of his sources would've picked up on a trail of insanity as the idol journeyed to Meredith's sword.

As it stands, there is nothing in Dragon Age 2 or the accompanying lore to dictate that the idol is evil in any way, shape or form. To bring it around to pop culture, that's like saying the Venom symbiote from Spider-Man is evil because it brought out the worst of Peter Parker's primal emotions. That wasn't the suit manipulating Parker, it was Parker's id manifesting without the shackles of conscience. All the suit did was amplify what was already there, same as the idol.

[PlumPaul93]

yeah I watch this guy lol he curses a lot for those who hate that stuff, personally I think his opinion is one bioware should consider, considering he didn't play DAO and that appears like that was the crowd bioware was trying to get with this game.

[AlexXIV]

So I just watched this video and not being native english it is hard enough for me to understand without subtitles. So I opened my ears wide and all I got was 'Your endings sucks, **** you Bioware'. Honestly I hoped for a somewhat coherent and well thought commentary. Maybe someday someone makes one. I am not all about bashing Bioware and and DA2. I am a Bioware fan and RPG fan. And Dragon Age fan. This guy thinks the game is great until the epilogue. I don't think so. Why I think so I have voiced in this thread and many others. And he is wrong. The only thing he complains is the ending which is a cliffhanger. Now it would be disappointing as he said if there wasn't a sequel. But there will be one which will answer all these questions. Ok, we have to wait for it. But that's kind of ... normal. So this you tube video comes a cross a bit like nerd rage. Sorry.

However, the good thing about DA2 are the companions and companion quests. Bioware just rocks at doing this kind of thing. The dialogues, the banter, even if there could always be more, is great. The bad thing about this game is simply the main story. It's forced and partly nonsensical. And all choices you make get wiped away latest at the end where you make the only real choice which is to side with templars or mages. That's the weakness of DA2, not the epilogue. And even if I might come across like an elitist or whatever again ... what do I care for people who didn't play DA:O? If you play a sequel to a game you can't expect to get the same measure of involvement as those who played the first. Even not in Mass Effect. I mean play Mass Effect 2 without having played the first. The first thing that happens is that the main character dies. How does that make sense to someone who didn't play the original Mass Effect? Well it doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's not the point.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 03:22 .

[DiablosShadows]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

It's ancient and if it makes people crazy it is obviously evil. Or do you think that's a good thing? I don't know that lyrium as such drives people crazy or is to be considered evil. It causes addiction though. Anyway, lyrium isn't inherently evil. The idol is. It drives everyone who owns it mad. Which makes me conclude that it is corrupted.

Wrong.

The idol - and this is inferred from the game itself - amplifies dominant emotions. If you're a selfish bastard at heart but your conscience and ties to family keeps you from strangling your younger brother, the idol amplifies your base emotion until it overrides your, for lack of a better term, conscience. All the people who held the idol in Dragon Age 2 did not "go mad" or become power hungry or turn dark side. Both the Champion and Varric held the idol (or were in a asshair's reach of it in proximity), and neither of them turned on their family, killed random innocents, or went around waving their junk at old women while barking at the moon. The two people who really had control of the idol were unstable or complete pricks to begin with, so for them their base emotions of greed and paranoia were amplified by the idol.

Also, what of the people who handled the Idol as it passed from Bartrand to (eventually) Meredith? How come we heard nothing of merchants and labourers going mad and pissing out their buttholes (I'm told that's a manifestation of evil in at least 37 states)? You'd think Varric and all of his sources would've picked up on a trail of insanity as the idol journeyed to Meredith's sword.

As it stands, there is nothing in Dragon Age 2 or the accompanying lore to dictate that the idol is evil in any way, shape or form. To bring it around to pop culture, that's like saying the Venom symbiote from Spider-Man is evil because it brought out the worst of Peter Parker's primal emotions. That wasn't the suit manipulating Parker, it was Parker's id manifesting without the shackles of conscience. All the suit did was amplify what was already there, same as the idol.

It went from Bartrand to Meredith directly no other ppl.

[AlexXIV]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

It's ancient and if it makes people crazy it is obviously evil. Or do you think that's a good thing? I don't know that lyrium as such drives people crazy or is to be considered evil. It causes addiction though. Anyway, lyrium isn't inherently evil. The idol is. It drives everyone who owns it mad. Which makes me conclude that it is corrupted.

Wrong.

The idol - and this is inferred from the game itself - amplifies dominant emotions. If you're a selfish bastard at heart but your conscience and ties to family keeps you from strangling your younger brother, the idol amplifies your base emotion until it overrides your, for lack of a better term, conscience. All the people who held the idol in Dragon Age 2 did not "go mad" or become power hungry or turn dark side. Both the Champion and Varric held the idol (or were in a asshair's reach of it in proximity), and neither of them turned on their family, killed random innocents, or went around waving their junk at old women while barking at the moon. The two people who really had control of the idol were unstable or complete pricks to begin with, so for them their base emotions of greed and paranoia were amplified by the idol.

Also, what of the people who handled the Idol as it passed from Bartrand to (eventually) Meredith? How come we heard nothing of merchants and labourers going mad and pissing out their buttholes (I'm told that's a manifestation of evil in at least 37 states)? You'd think Varric and all of his sources would've picked up on a trail of insanity as the idol journeyed to Meredith's sword.

As it stands, there is nothing in Dragon Age 2 or the accompanying lore to dictate that the idol is evil in any way, shape or form. To bring it around to pop culture, that's like saying the Venom symbiote from Spider-Man is evil because it brought out the worst of Peter Parker's primal emotions. That wasn't the suit manipulating Parker, it was Parker's id manifesting without the shackles of conscience. All the suit did was amplify what was already there, same as the idol.

For someone telling me I am wrong you make a lot of wrong assumptions.

First off the black spider man suit was an alien symbiont which gave the one it is merged power, but sucked out their life. If Peter Parker kept it he would probably have died very quick. I have read the comics btw, and not just watched the video. If that's not evil for you, fine. Evil is a religious term, so you can argue if it even exists.

From your answer:

'the idol amplifies your base emotion until it overrides your, for lack of a better term, conscience'

And that's what? A good thing? Do you think it is good to have emotions to cook over and no conscience to stop you from doing stupid things? You basically describe what going mad is about. I don't see your point. At all.

I never even argued that the idol is connected to some evil spirit or whatever. Point is it drives people mad. Even the best emotions (love, care) if it goes too far and is not held back by any sort of conscience can only end badly. If you want an example: Anders, Orsino, the guy who killed Leandra.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[Darth Obvious]

Yes, Alex is right. The idol is a bad thing, no matter how you slice it.

More importantly, it's a terrible plot device that helps to completely ruin what was already a weak story to begin with.

Lame.

[Edge2177]

So what if... this game is like Shadow of Amn? And Throne of Bhaal comes next, no complaints then right? There's a 3 year gap between the Meredith battle and the Varric interview, still to be filled in.

[AlexXIV]

Edge2177 wrote...

So what if... this game is like Shadow of Amn? And Throne of Bhaal comes next, no complaints then right? There's a 3 year gap between the Meredith battle and the Varric interview, still to be filled in.

This. I also think DA3 wills start before Varrics interrogations and at least describe the reasons why Hawke left in the prologue. At some point the characters will meet. The only thing that would be really disappointing is when Hawke actually disappeared to never show up again. Because then I'd wish I never had played this game.

[Yrkoon]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes and I tell you why even before I go to that link.

First off devs said this: DA2 is not about fighting an ancient evil like DA:O. Meep. Wrong. You fight Meredith possessed by an ancient evil.

Wait... this isn't true.  Or at least you're stating an opinion as fact.

We don't know what the hell the Idol is.  You're assuming it's some living spirit  or 'ancient evil" that takes over Merideth.  But there's exactly  Nothing in the game that  points to this.  It's an idol of lyrium.  And lyrium isn't evil.  it's an element that makes you crazy if  enough of it  it gets in your blood.  We learn that in DA:O.

It's ancient and if it makes people crazy it is obviously evil. .

Lyrium is evil then.  lol

Makes people crazy?  Check  (see: 'lyrium addled"  See:  The Codex Entry for Lyrium.  See:   the crazy dwarf  merchant in Orzamar).

Next up:  Proof that posession occured with Merideth  (your claim), rather than, say,  Lyrium induced psychosis.  Get to it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Yrkoon]

DiablosShadows wrote...

It went from Bartrand to Meredith directly no other ppl.

Not true.  we know for a fact  (codex entry)  that someone forged it into a sword for Merideth.  And we also know that Bartrand is not a  dwarven smith.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 mars 2011 - 03:42 .