22 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirranek]

Ok, I want to start off by saying I think this game is fantastic, it was a whole lot of fun and I prefer almost all of DA2 to the original. I like how you have characters who are with you but have their own agendas, which can seriously conflict with yours. I really like the ambiguity of most of the story, and how it sets up an interesting conflict that has no clearly defined answer – in the grand scheme of things anyway. I like that the combat doesn't feel like trying to smack a deep sea whale with a scuba flipper, and I actually liked the setting of Kirkwall and the aesthetic changes. That said:

Like a lot of people, I think that act 3 really suffered because of not being able to avoid fighting both of the figureheads. Hawke's presence serves to tip things in one group's favour, but their both so nuts in the finale
that both feel as bad as each other. While I don't think boss fights are altogether unnecessary, I do think they are being used unnecessarily often. I really enjoy Bioware's recent way of storytelling and the presentation, but it seems to be at odds with this obsession of having a 'big bad' to make a thrilling finale. It's arguably the worst part of ME2, it weakened the impact of the Shadow Broker DLC – for me, anyway – and made this finale feel contrived.

Orsino's flipping out and going all harvester on your party was so arbitrary and just made everything in the final quest seem weak. Then you got to Meredith, and get another boss fight. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that this game would have actually benefited from one less boss fight. From a replayability standpoint I think it would have been so much better: choose one faction, fight the other commander. Choose differently, play differently. Even if they both have to die, have one of them snuff it in the general chaos of things.

The whole aesthetic of the boss fights was ridiculous as well. Orsino's was actually fine from a design standpoint – if it had made sense to happen -, but Meredith was just silly. As a story that was in my opinion doing grey morality really well, and following a different but quite consistent new visual style, suddenly having her go balls to the wall nuts and jump around like a medieval Dark-Jedi Sephiroth with a red cocaine sword was just bad.


For a game telling this sort of story, instead of flying into the air between bouts to summon statue minions – which admittedly looked quite spiffy – having her confront you with her viewpoint and giving you the chance to throw it back in her face based on past experiences, thereby weakening her resolve (i.e. battle skillz), I think would have been so much more in keeping with the game's overall theme. As it was, it was just more fight; shiny fight, but still just more fight.


As I said before, I really enjoyed this game. I don't even think this ruined act 3 entirely, like a lot of people have said. I still really enjoyed the side stories and the buddy talk that happened during that time, including the last fight. I just think that the old design philosophy of punctuating every climax with unavoidable boss fights is a relic of the past that often weakens the quality of storytelling games like this.

Modifié par Tirranek, 18 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Tirranek]

Edit: Not sure why it looked like a poem when I posted. Fixed

[Morogrem]

yeah, the fact that orsino switches to evil for no reason was RETARDED. I loved the rest of the game but mages in this game really tried to hammer in that they only turned into abominations when they had ther back into a corner but seriously? it got to the point that mages became aboms at the slightest confrontation. like with orsino, we never shouldve seen him become like that unless we chose the templars. that shouldve been our reward for such, just as our reward for chosing the mages was killing meredith (I honestly don't know if you still killed her after chosing templars, I'm just saying that if you did and you still kill her, its not so much a reward as a reminder that zealots are ****ing crazy).

[Bondkakan]

Morogrem wrote...

yeah, the fact that orsino switches to evil for no reason was RETARDED. I loved the rest of the game but mages in this game really tried to hammer in that they only turned into abominations when they had ther back into a corner but seriously? it got to the point that mages became aboms at the slightest confrontation. like with orsino, we never shouldve seen him become like that unless we chose the templars. that shouldve been our reward for such, just as our reward for chosing the mages was killing meredith (I honestly don't know if you still killed her after chosing templars, I'm just saying that if you did and you still kill her, its not so much a reward as a reminder that zealots are ****ing crazy).

Orsino was not the person you thought him to be. He seemed be nice etc, but incase you missed, he gladly helped with the research that got Hawkes mother killed in that sick way. 

Orsino, being the person he is, while being overly convinced that his time was done, obviously turned to blood magic as a last resort. It was not retarded at all if you followed the story. He was just... unstable.

[Icy Magebane]

Regardless Orsino's involvement with the Killer's scheme, there was no reason for him to attack his own allies during the final battle...

[Denpos1]

I loved the meredith fight, she didnt need to do huge jumps though, but the rest, statues, npcs you met coming in to help you for final fight... It was really great.. only wished that the npcs came in with some dialogue like zehvan why he suddenly decide to come randomly to help you without pausing the fight and as mentioned...without the insanity jumps Meredith did

Modifié par Denpos1, 18 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Ke11iente]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Regardless Orsino's involvement with the Killer's scheme, there was no reason for him to attack his own allies during the final battle...

Yeah, that's what I didn't get. If he wants to be a sick bastard, fine. But why does he suddenly attack you and not the templars? Makes no sense. 

[Kekkis]

Bondkakan wrote...

Morogrem wrote...

yeah, the fact that orsino switches to evil for no reason was RETARDED. I loved the rest of the game but mages in this game really tried to hammer in that they only turned into abominations when they had ther back into a corner but seriously? it got to the point that mages became aboms at the slightest confrontation. like with orsino, we never shouldve seen him become like that unless we chose the templars. that shouldve been our reward for such, just as our reward for chosing the mages was killing meredith (I honestly don't know if you still killed her after chosing templars, I'm just saying that if you did and you still kill her, its not so much a reward as a reminder that zealots are ****ing crazy).

Orsino was not the person you thought him to be. He seemed be nice etc, but incase you missed, he gladly helped with the research that got Hawkes mother killed in that sick way. 

Orsino, being the person he is, while being overly convinced that his time was done, obviously turned to blood magic as a last resort. It was not retarded at all if you followed the story. He was just... unstable.

But it does not explain why he attacks me. Some direct overhelming attack from 100+ Templars, or when he faces Meredith would explain why he turns into a Jabba, but there was nothing special happening at that moment. We were doing just fine...

I can somehow buy, that some mages in act 3 turn into abominations in front of my eyes to defend themselves against Templars. Even if I don´t know why I can´t yell to them that bubble yourself. Help is coming!

[Bondkakan]

Ke11iente wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Regardless Orsino's involvement with the Killer's scheme, there was no reason for him to attack his own allies during the final battle...

Yeah, that's what I didn't get. If he wants to be a sick bastard, fine. But why does he suddenly attack you and not the templars? Makes no sense. 

He is sure he will be defeated, and he sees the templars coming for him and the mages. He resorts to blood magic but it goes wrong.

[Lord_Saulot]

Bondkakan wrote...

Morogrem wrote...

yeah, the fact that orsino switches to evil for no reason was RETARDED. I loved the rest of the game but mages in this game really tried to hammer in that they only turned into abominations when they had ther back into a corner but seriously? it got to the point that mages became aboms at the slightest confrontation. like with orsino, we never shouldve seen him become like that unless we chose the templars. that shouldve been our reward for such, just as our reward for chosing the mages was killing meredith (I honestly don't know if you still killed her after chosing templars, I'm just saying that if you did and you still kill her, its not so much a reward as a reminder that zealots are ****ing crazy).

Orsino was not the person you thought him to be. He seemed be nice etc, but incase you missed, he gladly helped with the research that got Hawkes mother killed in that sick way. 

Orsino, being the person he is, while being overly convinced that his time was done, obviously turned to blood magic as a last resort. It was not retarded at all if you followed the story. He was just... unstable.

I actually missed that portion.  What was his role in the killer's scheme?

And as to the rest, I agree with this.  Orisino was obviously unstable, and was obviously familiar with some of the most vile forms of blood magic long before this encounter if he knew how to do that.  Seeing the Templars crashing in and killing mages broke whatever minor compulsions existed in the seemingly rational elf, and caused him to flip out.  Once blood magic and demons are in play, it does not matter if the people he is attacking are allies anymore.

[roadrunnerNM]

And the boss fights were tedious, imo. It was like "Boss at 50% health, time for adds" every single time. Blorf. I've given up on MMO, and this sort of thing is one of the reasons. Plus I have a positive aversion to re-playing DA2.

[Icy Magebane]

Okay... so why doesn't it ever go wrong when Hawke abuses blood magic in every fight? If they wanted to make it some kind of immutable rule that blood mages always wind up insane abominations, that should not have been a spec.

I'm just not buying the excuse that blood magic, or even panic, made Orsino unstable. IMO it was simply an illogical and forced boss fight.

@ LordSaulot - There is a slip of paper in the Killer's lair that is signed by "O."  It tells him to keep updating him on the progress of his research, and implicates Orsino in the Killer's ongoing plans.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 mars 2011 - 06:01 .

[Bondkakan]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I actually missed that portion.  What was his role in the killer's scheme?

And as to the rest, I agree with this.  Orisino was obviously unstable, and was obviously familiar with some of the most vile forms of blood magic long before this encounter if he knew how to do that.  Seeing the Templars crashing in and killing mages broke whatever minor compulsions existed in the seemingly rational elf, and caused him to flip out.  Once blood magic and demons are in play, it does not matter if the people he is attacking are allies anymore.

Look in your codex in the "Letters and notes" part for "A letter from the circle"

It's only signed with "O" and at that time you don't know it is him, it's first when he mentions Quentin and his research that you actually know he was involved.

[Lord_Saulot]

Ah, ok, thanks for filling me in. That makes it pretty clear to me that Orsino is just a monster, and frankly, that explains his transformation just fine for me.

@Icy Magebane: The game doesn't really apply the same rules to Hawke as to NPCs. It is a shame that specializations are not better taken into account in RP, but this is fairly consistent with DA:O - specs don't matter much in terms of how other characters treat you or how they affect your character. Templar Hawke never gets a lyrium addiction, etc. I think that making it so specs did not even require an unlock in this game (as opposed to bargaining with a demon to learn blood magic in the first game) was a step backward, and it does feel inconsistent when Hawke is not subject to the same conditions that other character are.

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 18 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[Icy Magebane]

@ Lord Saulot - I suppose that's true. It just seems very strange if you play as a blood mage and you see no other examples of normal (not possessed) blood mages. You make a good point though... Personally, I was hoping for a scene involving drinking dragon's blood to become a Reaver. Hell, I didn't even notice that the game automatically gives you all specs until I was level 10+! I wandered around endlessly looking for a way to learn specs... XD

But yeah. If you don't use Hawke as an example, maybe blood magic always leads to insanity and whatnot. Maybe.

[Clonedzero]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Okay... so why doesn't it ever go wrong when Hawke abuses blood magic in every fight? If they wanted to make it some kind of immutable rule that blood mages always wind up insane abominations, that should not have been a spec.

I'm just not buying the excuse that blood magic, or even panic, made Orsino unstable. IMO it was simply an illogical and forced boss fight.

@ LordSaulot - There is a slip of paper in the Killer's lair that is signed by "O."  It tells him to keep updating him on the progress of his research, and implicates Orsino in the Killer's ongoing plans.

well duh, he never madet he mistake of using blood magic in a cutscene

[Bondkakan]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@ Lord Saulot - I suppose that's true. It just seems very strange if you play as a blood mage and you see no other examples of normal (not possessed) blood mages. You make a good point though... Personally, I was hoping for a scene involving drinking dragon's blood to become a Reaver. Hell, I didn't even notice that the game automatically gives you all specs until I was level 10+! I wandered around endlessly looking for a way to learn specs... XD

But yeah. If you don't use Hawke as an example, maybe blood magic always leads to insanity and whatnot. Maybe.

There are a few "normal" blood mages. Merrill and Jowan from DA:O are good examples of that. They just have their own motivations

Modifié par Bondkakan, 18 mars 2011 - 06:26 .

[Icy Magebane]

@Bondkakan - So selfishness leads to me attacking my allies at a crucial moment, where nothing is gained by harming them? Come on... if you think this fight made sense, what was the reason for Orsino attacking his allies? Keep in mind that you just said, "they don't want to make an immutable rule that blood mages turn into abominations." So if this wasn't yet another example of exactly that, why did a guy who understood and secretly practiced blood magic, a guy who had access to advanced research on necromancy, suddenly lose control over himself when using a spell that HE designed? Or if not designed, at the very least he knew what the spell would do...

[Bondkakan]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Bondkakan - So selfishness leads to me attacking my allies at a crucial moment, where nothing is gained by harming them? Come on... if you think this fight made sense, what was the reason for Orsino attacking his allies? Keep in mind that you just said, "they don't want to make an immutable rule that blood mages turn into abominations." So if this wasn't yet another example of exactly that, why did a guy who understood and secretly practiced blood magic, a guy who had access to advanced research on necromancy, suddenly lose control over himself when using a spell that HE designed? Or if not designed, at the very least he knew what the spell would do...

My post was just ninja'ed by myself. I thought that your reply to Lord_Saulot indicated you understood my point.
Just wanted to say that all blood mages don't turn into abominations. Merrill and Jowan are two good examples among others.

And to understand why he loses control is just to listen to what he says just before the transformation: "Quentins research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside. But I see now there is no other way"

[Busternated]

Bondkakan wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Bondkakan - So selfishness leads to me attacking my allies at a crucial moment, where nothing is gained by harming them? Come on... if you think this fight made sense, what was the reason for Orsino attacking his allies? Keep in mind that you just said, "they don't want to make an immutable rule that blood mages turn into abominations." So if this wasn't yet another example of exactly that, why did a guy who understood and secretly practiced blood magic, a guy who had access to advanced research on necromancy, suddenly lose control over himself when using a spell that HE designed? Or if not designed, at the very least he knew what the spell would do...

My post was just ninja'ed by myself. I thought that your reply to Lord_Saulot indicated you understood my point.
Just wanted to say that all blood mages don't turn into abominations. Merrill and Jowan are two good examples among others.

And to understand why he loses control is just to listen to what he says just before the transformation: "Quentins research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside. But I see now there is no other way"

Jowan and Merrill also aren't really being pushed. For Merrill it nearly happened in her final quest, however. An abomination exploits things mortals have, such as for example the desire to be rid of the templars hounding the mages constantly.

Imo this is just a resonating effect. Templars hound mages -> more mages become abominations -> templars become more strict in hounding mages -> even more mages become abominations...

Aside from that I thought it was really weird that Orsino became an abomination. We had things under control (okay some mages did die but for the most part we were winning), and then he transforms. To be honest they should have made him do it when we were being overwhelmed by templars. Now it just seems like a bossfight for the sake of having a bossfight.

[Icy Magebane]

@Bondkakan - lol... if the research was evil, why in the hell didn't Orsino stop it? Another example of a bad, forced plotline... At the very end of the story, his motivations change and he no longer endorses the Killer's incredibly brutal actions? Not buying it.

As far as Merrill and Jowan go, yes those actually are good examples. Not sure how I forgot about Jowan. I'm just going to go ahead and say that Kirkwall itself has something to do with all this madness. Those letters from "the Band of Three," hinted at something demonic regarding the city, from the layout (shaped into runes) to the disappearances of thousands of slaves. Plus, I heard on this forum that people think that's where the Magister Lords entered the Black City. So hey, maybe it does all boil down to something going on behind the scenes.

[Lord_Saulot]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Bondkakan - lol... if the research was evil, why in the hell didn't Orsino stop it? Another example of a bad, forced plotline... At the very end of the story, his motivations change and he no longer endorses the Killer's incredibly brutal actions? Not buying it.

As far as Merrill and Jowan go, yes those actually are good examples. Not sure how I forgot about Jowan. I'm just going to go ahead and say that Kirkwall itself has something to do with all this madness. Those letters from "the Band of Three," hinted at something demonic regarding the city, from the layout (shaped into runes) to the disappearances of thousands of slaves. Plus, I heard on this forum that people think that's where the Magister Lords entered the Black City. So hey, maybe it does all boil down to something going on behind the scenes.

To me the fact that Orsino was unwilling to stop the research shows me that he was never fully the calm, rational mage he projected.  He might only have really leaned on blood magic when he felt that everything was lost, but there was always a part of him that was weak and prone to it.  I think you have to fight him even if you side with the mages just to show that the templar POV was not wrong.  The same with fighting Meredith as a templar-supporter.

But I agree with you that there is something wrong with Kirkwall it said.  It is certainly a demon-haunted town, full of old ghosts and painful history.  Major demonic powers seem to have found a home in the city.  The tensions there are not all of human making, and the shadow of the past is a dark one.