19 réponses à ce sujet

[b09boy]

I have to say, of all the problems bugging me about DA2, this has got to be the worst.  That nagging idea that what I've done has been completely retconned.  Seeing my choices turn to dust in the face of rewrites for the sake of a cheap cameo?  Come on, Bioware.  If you're going to give us a choice, pleaase, either address all the outcomes or don't address it at all.

Like Leliana showing up at the end with the Chantry, despite the possibility of her being dead or convinced to leave the Chantry.  This could have been left out entirely.  Or, better yet, there could be an alternate scene with a different character taking her place.

Or Anders.  You make Awakening and DA2 during the same period, but can't coordinate how to get his and Justice's story to end so that the two stories actually mesh together?  Really?  Come on, you can organize better than this.

Or how about the classic.  "The Warden has disappeared."  Really?  Did you check their tomb?  Or the urn you put their ashes in?

Please, Bioware, don't screw up our choices.  These examples alone could have been very easily avoided if even a tiny bit of thought was put into them.

[Wedger]

Well, "the warden" could reference any Warden - incuding the Orlasian Commander from DA:O A.

[Pileyourbodies]

Hold on....

Leliana yeah thats a Retcon

anders isn't a retcon it is a different direction, also by the time anders gets there it has been a year since hawke got there and considering how quickly the warden ended the blight that gives enough time.

It has been 9 years since the blight ended when Cassandra makes that comment. 9 years is long enough for someone to disappear.

Also the epilogues are non canon.

[b09boy]

You could believe that if you really wanted, I suppose, but I think we all know who they were referencing. Otherwise they might have called them the Warden Commander. There are many Wardens. There's one THE Warden.

[b09boy]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

anders isn't a retcon it is a different direction, also by the time anders gets there it has been a year since hawke got there and considering how quickly the warden ended the blight that gives enough time.

It has been 9 years since the blight ended when Cassandra makes that comment. 9 years is long enough for someone to disappear.

Also the epilogues are non canon.

Anders could have been killed.  Or stayed with the Wardens indefinitely.  He could even have not been made a Grey Warden.

And if the epilogues aren't canon then that's just bad storytelling.  To have one thing written in the game, to tell us that is how things are, then to go against that?

[TcheQ]

Wedger wrote...

Well, "the warden" could reference any Warden - incuding the Orlasian Commander from DA:O A.

The warden=anders

PS lame ending

Modifié par TcheQ, 18 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

When a variety of mutually exclusive things are possible, the results of them always become less than absolute.

In general, though, what the player thinks has happened, and what actually happens, have long been staples of narratives, even when the narrative isn't as filled with liars, cheats, and deceivers as Dragon Age's always has been.

There is no omniscient, all-accurate narrator in Dragon Age. Never has been.

[Morogrem]

they did this in awakening too. if your character dies you can still use him in awakening without any expanation as to... oh i dont know WHY HE'S NOT DEAD?! that really ticked me off. I completely agree, I would much rather not have the mechanic than have it and have them ignore it when it suits them.

[Dangerfoot]

TcheQ wrote...

Wedger wrote...

Well, "the warden" could reference any Warden - incuding the Orlasian Commander from DA:O A.

The warden=anders

PS lame ending

If it was Anders or the Orlesian guy, wouldn't they say their name instead of "the warden"?

[Morogrem]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Hold on....

Leliana yeah thats a Retcon

anders isn't a retcon it is a different direction, also by the time anders gets there it has been a year since hawke got there and considering how quickly the warden ended the blight that gives enough time.

It has been 9 years since the blight ended when Cassandra makes that comment. 9 years is long enough for someone to disappear.

Also the epilogues are non canon.

lol dude

not if their dead.  FACT: she still makes that comment if the hero sacrifices himself. FACT: dead ppl stay put.

[Clonedzero]

Morogrem wrote...

they did this in awakening too. if your character dies you can still use him in awakening without any expanation as to... oh i dont know WHY HE'S NOT DEAD?! that really ticked me off. I completely agree, I would much rather not have the mechanic than have it and have them ignore it when it suits them.

i dont think that was a retcon i think that was more of a game mechanic. as in "oh i didnt know there would be an expansion, i dont want to use a new guy and i dont want to beat the game so just let me import my dead warden please so i can do awakening" thing.

as for the Leliana retcon its only a retcon in a very small number of peoples games. i understand it from their point of view, they wanted to use Leliana for a bigger role and knew a vast majority of the players used and liked her. so they decided to make her take a bigger mysterious role in the sequels and the people who killed her are out of luck. sucks but i understand it.

and them talking about the warden is talking about either the warden or the orliasian warden, who is the "back-up" warden in case the players is dead. i mean thats pretty much why the orliasian exists

i know it can be frustrating but seriously i dont blame bioware for using a character that easily 90%+ of origins characters used and liked for a bigger role in the sequels.

[Clonedzero]

Dangerfoot wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

Wedger wrote...

Well, "the warden" could reference any Warden - incuding the Orlasian Commander from DA:O A.

The warden=anders

PS lame ending

If it was Anders or the Orlesian guy, wouldn't they say their name instead of "the warden"?

Orlesian guy is "the warden", he's the replacement warden.

[TcheQ]

Dangerfoot wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

Wedger wrote...

Well, "the warden" could reference any Warden - incuding the Orlasian Commander from DA:O A.

The warden=anders

PS lame ending

If it was Anders or the Orlesian guy, wouldn't they say their name instead of "the warden"?

Do you mean Riordan? (who went splat that Leliana should or should not have known about)

The Warden could have been Loghain as well.  Or Alastair.

But I have to admit I assumed on first watching they mean the Hero of Ferelden when they said 'the warden'

But how would anyone playing da2 who didn't play dao even know who the hlell the hero fo ferelden was (since the game goes out of it's way to not talk about them ever) (well, one line of Varric's)

Since the are clerics, and Anders detroyed the Kirkwall chantry, I think it logical that that is the only warden that they could possibly refer to.

anywho, it sucked.  unless there is an awesome secret epilogue no one has discovered yet, Bioware have a lot to answer for

PS in my story of da2, leliana was left at lothering ( i never went into the bar, so never met her).  SO that made even less sense to me, as technically it's someone I never knew saying they couldn't find me, talking as if they knew me

Modifié par TcheQ, 18 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[MisanthropePrime]

If you started Awakening with a new character, he has the origin "Orlesian Warden". That's who Leliana would be referring to in that case.

[Brockololly]

To be fair with respect to Cassandra talking about the Warden, she could be referring to the Orlesian Warden Commander just as much the Hero of Ferelden. And even then, she says that Hawke is "gone" just like the Warden. Gone could simply be acknowledging the US for those Wardens, the Orlesian and others vanishing as Awakening's slides say, or the Wardens that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

If you let Anders go during the critical point, he can return to the Grey Wardens in Amaranthine. So I feel that it does coinside with the slides at the end of Awakenings. I don't see anything retcons going on...JMHO.

[b09boy]

As I mentioned before, there's a difference between THE Warden and the Warden Commander and other Wardens.  THE Warden has aloways been referenced as such differently from other Grey Wardens to represent the Hero of Fereldan.  There has never been a time when this is not true.  You can come up with excuses for Bioware, but let's face reality here.  We all know better.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

If you let Anders go during the critical point, he can return to the Grey Wardens in Amaranthine. So I feel that it does coinside with the slides at the end of Awakenings. I don't see anything retcons going on...JMHO.

So if you go down one potential path it can sort of coincide with another potential path.

How about where he doesn't become a Warden?  Or gets an arrow throw his skull?  Or how about where in DA2 you stick a knife in his back?

Come on people. There's not really a call to be a fanboy here.  Would you not rather Bioware improved their quality?  Would you honestly rather make excuses for them than see them improve?

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I'm just saying this option does come up for my characters and my decisions in both games. For my characters it played out. I do see what you are saying in regards to characters that made other choices. BioWare has already said if they want to bring a character back they will do it. Do I agree with it? No, actually I don't.

The only problem I see is once again in the timeline of the game. The events in Awakening and the Free Marches don't coinside like they should. Were the Templars bringing Anders back from the Free Marches when a player encounters him in Awakenings? If so then the epilogue for Awakenings does make sense for his character.

Maybe just like Flemeth, Anders did give a pillow to Varric so maybe Anders is still alive just like Flemeth.

[Noatz]

Leliana is the only official retcon I am aware of and its only a retcon IF you defiled the urn and IF Leliana is in your active party at the time. And even then you can argue with some plausibility you only knocked her out or she got healed by being close to the ashes or whatever. Its not like you can take this isolated example and suspect that any character you end up killing might come back "just because". I don't think its for the sake of a cheap cameo either, its obvious she's going to have a bigger role to play in the future.

Also on the subject of vague nomenclature, "The Hero of Ferelden" or "The Warden" = PC from Origins, "The Warden-Commander" = PC from Awakening.

Also Anders comes to Kirkwall after the events of Awakening (as should be obvious). The quest to kill Amaranthine conspiritors (if you burned the city) shows this. Its been a year since Hawke got into Kirkwall, his journey from Lothering took time (2 weeks on the ship alone), and while its difficult to quantify the exact time it took the Blight to be defeated its reasonable to assume a couple of months at most if only because the Darkspawn weren't exactly hanging around playing cards. The events of Awakening probably took around the same or slightly less time.

[SamFlagg]

I still think the best solution for "not becoming a warden" would've been dialogue later in the game suggesting that he may have embellished that part, and may have instead escaped from the templars after briefly being at a warden base.

I mean really a whole lot of 'retcons' could be dramatically improved by maybe 5 lines of dialogue per retcon where it is lampshaded.

At least that way it doesn't feel like an immersion breaking experience.

(And I'm coming at this from a guy who for the most part didn't hit any things that would've been retconnd in my game except for a note that the King of Fereldan was allowing troops to come back, when I know I placed Alistair on the throne and let him slay the Archdemon, combined with Anora never marrying again I'd like to think that this was a misset flag.)