137 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm all for new stories! I don't want a repeat of Origins, the Blight is so uninteresting. Mindless zombie orcs defiling everything they touch isn't a compelling villain. It's something to stop, sure, but it's not compelling. No one will ever say that the Arch-Demon was right (unlike Meredith who I believe was right).

The problem is the War with Templar/Mages happens. Hawke does nothing that prevents or causes that war. Hawke does nothing but side quests while avoiding the entire issue as much as possible until the game forces the issue with the Chantry explosion.

The argument is that personal freedom (Mages) vs public safety (Templars). That argument breaks down completely when every mage is evil and the Templars are led by a crazy person because an Idol made her do it.

Now there's no argument. The Mages were evil and the Meredith was crazy because the plot told her to be so. And Hawke has no affect on any outcome, good or ill.

That's a storytelling problem. That's part of the reason why the ending just happens and we're left feeling disappointed.

It's not because it's a cliffhanger or because it's about the journey instead of the destination, the journey is Crazy people and demons but only after dozens of hours of finding lost kittens and fighting innumerable sized gangs in the streets.

Well said.

[Baelyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm all for new stories! I don't want a repeat of Origins, the Blight is so uninteresting. Mindless zombie orcs defiling everything they touch isn't a compelling villain. It's something to stop, sure, but it's not compelling. No one will ever say that the Arch-Demon was right (unlike Meredith who I believe was right).

The problem is the War with Templar/Mages happens. Hawke does nothing that prevents or causes that war. Hawke does nothing but side quests while avoiding the entire issue as much as possible until the game forces the issue with the Chantry explosion.

The argument is that personal freedom (Mages) vs public safety (Templars). That argument breaks down completely when every mage is evil and the Templars are led by a crazy person because an Idol made her do it.

Now there's no argument. The Mages were evil and the Meredith was crazy because the plot told her to be so. And Hawke has no affect on any outcome, good or ill.

That's a storytelling problem. That's part of the reason why the ending just happens and we're left feeling disappointed.

It's not because it's a cliffhanger or because it's about the journey instead of the destination, the journey is Crazy people and demons but only after dozens of hours of finding lost kittens and fighting innumerable sized gangs in the streets.

Well the argument is posed as two-fold for the mages.

1.Reading the codex entries of the Band of Three shows that there is something strange beneath Kirkwall and that this area in particular has a very strong demonic influence (even stretching forth into people that don't have magic tendancies.) So Kirkwall mages are already very susceptible to demonic influence. It says nothing about the mages personally other than no matter how honorable they are just one bad choice away from being a destructive force (but aren't we all?)

2. I believe it is very clear that "not all mages are blood mages." Yes, in the end we see many abominations and blood mages but the argument is strongly brought forth (even by Meredith)...would the mages ever turn to these drastic measures had they not been so hard pressed by the templars? The majority of the blood mages we see are only so out of desparation not out of maliciousness.

So no the plot doesn't set it up as "the mages are evil and Meredith is evil because of some idol"....the plot is set up as "the mages have the potential to be a destructive force but would they ever realize that had it not been for the oppression by the templars"

And the idol gives a particularly large tie in with Hawke. So I don't see it as a random catalyst thrown in just to make Meredith bad. Its evident from Cassandra's reaction to Varric that the notion of popular belief is that Hawke sought out this idol and what was uncovered in the Deep Roads was more than just a stone that made one lady go crazy. Most likely had Hawke not gotten involved, they would have never  even gone into the Deep Roads and let alone gotten as far as to discover the idol in the first place. This would have poised the conflict much differently. Meredith was not crazy before the idol and most likely there might have been a more civil resolution in the end. (Anders role most likely would have happened either way as it is an optional quest to help him but most likely Meredith would not have gone all "KILL ALL TEH MAGEZ!" and instead punished only those involved while possibly just cracking down a little more on mages in Kirkwall.

So I don't believe the argument breaks down at all. I believe it is fully realized in the climax and the idol simply adds a) More direct involvment in the events for Hawke and Something Bioware obviously wants to utilize in further stories (hopefully...I will be quite upset if this gets swept under the rug because then yes, it would be just a useless plot device and a cheap way to get a big bad final boss that most people expect in a game.)

Edit for typos.

Modifié par Baelyn, 19 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[Foolsfolly]

I love the Band of Three/Enigma codex. I love it. It adds so much depth to Kirkwall and the story. The problem I have with it is that it's a codex that 90% of the players will never assemble or read. That kind of information should have been in the game and a part of the story. Instead it's tucked away behind your journal and scattered across 12 locations.

2. The game contradicts itself here. When you side with the mages you still fight crazed mages and blood mages and Abominations. Then Orsino goes Harvester and attacks not Meredith, his supposed tormentor, but the guy defending him and willing to die for him and his cause. And then there's the whole matter that Orisno was learning blood magic and necromancy in the first place, that's exactly what the Templar order is there to stop. He's breaking both the law and proving Meredith's point completely.

The whole 'push them hard enough and they become monsters' thing also looses its impact when you notice that you only ever deal with blood mages and abominations. We never see good mages being abused, we see mages being abused, we kill their templar tormentors and then they turn into an abomination and try to kill us. Maybe the Templar are being cruel and hard on these mages because they ARE abominations and blood mages.

And the idol gives a particularly large tie in with Hawke. So I don't see it as a random catalyst thrown in just to make Meredith bad. Its evident from Cassandra's reaction to Varric that the notion of popular belief is that Hawke sought out this idol and what was uncovered in the Deep Roads was more than just a stone that made one lady go crazy. Most likely had Hawke not gotten involved, they would have never even gone into the Deep Roads and let alone gotten as far as to discover the idol in the first place. This would have poised the conflict much differently. Meredith was not crazy before the idol and most likely there might have been a more civil resolution in the end. (Anders role most likely would have happened either way as it is an optional quest to help him but most likely Meredith would not have gone all "KILL ALL TEH MAGEZ!" and instead punished only those involved while possibly just cracking down a little more on mages in Kirkwall.

That's a circular argument. That's like saying the Architect caused the Mage/Templar war because he corrupted the Old God which started the Blight which cleared out the Deep Roads enough for them to go down there and find the Idol. If it wasn't Hawke it was that other dwarf we meet at the end of Act 1 who has the money but Varric brother doesn't want to deal with him. Varric's brother would likely have given in because he's greedy and wants to go down there.

Hawke's importance is minimum in this game. I think that's what Cassandra finds out through the story, the retelling of it all over Thedas made this no-one into someone important. The only thing Hawke ever did was stop the Qunari.

I really do think the argument breaks down because of the rampant blood mages in the game and the Idol being the only thing that makes Meredith crazy. If we had more interaction with good mages who are being oppressed and if Meredith was a zealot who honestly believed opposing a minority for the sake of the majority then the argument is valid. Then there'd be dozens of thread about which side was right instead of dozens of threads about the story/ending not being well thought out.

[Baelyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I love the Band of Three/Enigma codex. I love it. It adds so much depth to Kirkwall and the story. The problem I have with it is that it's a codex that 90% of the players will never assemble or read. That kind of information should have been in the game and a part of the story. Instead it's tucked away behind your journal and scattered across 12 locations.

2. The game contradicts itself here. When you side with the mages you still fight crazed mages and blood mages and Abominations. Then Orsino goes Harvester and attacks not Meredith, his supposed tormentor, but the guy defending him and willing to die for him and his cause. And then there's the whole matter that Orisno was learning blood magic and necromancy in the first place, that's exactly what the Templar order is there to stop. He's breaking both the law and proving Meredith's point completely.

The whole 'push them hard enough and they become monsters' thing also looses its impact when you notice that you only ever deal with blood mages and abominations. We never see good mages being abused, we see mages being abused, we kill their templar tormentors and then they turn into an abomination and try to kill us. Maybe the Templar are being cruel and hard on these mages because they ARE abominations and blood mages.

And the idol gives a particularly large tie in with Hawke. So I don't see it as a random catalyst thrown in just to make Meredith bad. Its evident from Cassandra's reaction to Varric that the notion of popular belief is that Hawke sought out this idol and what was uncovered in the Deep Roads was more than just a stone that made one lady go crazy. Most likely had Hawke not gotten involved, they would have never even gone into the Deep Roads and let alone gotten as far as to discover the idol in the first place. This would have poised the conflict much differently. Meredith was not crazy before the idol and most likely there might have been a more civil resolution in the end. (Anders role most likely would have happened either way as it is an optional quest to help him but most likely Meredith would not have gone all "KILL ALL TEH MAGEZ!" and instead punished only those involved while possibly just cracking down a little more on mages in Kirkwall.

That's a circular argument. That's like saying the Architect caused the Mage/Templar war because he corrupted the Old God which started the Blight which cleared out the Deep Roads enough for them to go down there and find the Idol. If it wasn't Hawke it was that other dwarf we meet at the end of Act 1 who has the money but Varric brother doesn't want to deal with him. Varric's brother would likely have given in because he's greedy and wants to go down there.

Hawke's importance is minimum in this game. I think that's what Cassandra finds out through the story, the retelling of it all over Thedas made this no-one into someone important. The only thing Hawke ever did was stop the Qunari.

I really do think the argument breaks down because of the rampant blood mages in the game and the Idol being the only thing that makes Meredith crazy. If we had more interaction with good mages who are being oppressed and if Meredith was a zealot who honestly believed opposing a minority for the sake of the majority then the argument is valid. Then there'd be dozens of thread about which side was right instead of dozens of threads about the story/ending not being well thought out.

Its not circular reasoning at all. I don't think you can just assume that the Deep Roads expedition would have happened regardless of Hawke. The game was clear that they NEEDED you. You provided the extra money. You provided the maps. You even cleared the way when no one else could enabling your group to go deeper than before. So Hawke's involvement directly brought back an ancient evil that directly corrupts the most powerfull woman in Kirkwall and drives her to the point of genocide (basically.) This is nothing like the far stretch of the Architect having anything to do with the Mage/Templar conflict. That would better be defined as Chaos Theory if you so chose to believe that he had some connection on totally unrelated events.

I do agree however that we could have used seeing more good abused mages, but  I believe people are failing to see the most important ones that are right in front of your face, namely your family. Your family is not evil yet has endured many hardships due to the simple fact that you are labeled as evil by the templars because you can use magic and refuse to be imprisoned in the Circle. You directly see the emotional impact of this on Bethany if you choose any class other than a mage. Also Feynriel, as far as we know he has not resorted to anything evil and even recognizes (in his letter) the corruption of the Tevinter magistrates.

And you are right I believe in Hawke's "larger than life" impression in the game. Thats why Cassandra wants him. Not because of some special power he has, but because he is a legend among the people and influence is the greatest power they could use at this time (hence their searching for the two people in the world that people actually still look up to and respect) And I think very much this game was written to show destiny and helplessness. Hawke didn't choose all this, he didn't even cause most of it. "Hurled in the chaos you fight, but the world will shake before you." It was his destiny to be in the midst of this, see the world crumble around him, and arise a champion of the people they could look up to in this time of chaos. Bioware never advertised the game as "You choose what happens since you are the Champion!" It was clearly put forth that what happens is inevitable. You simply choose who Hawke is as a person....not the world around him.

Modifié par Baelyn, 19 mars 2011 - 10:29 .

[foam]

I think the ending was good for the same reasons you think it's bad. I was annoyed at the lack of closure at first but I've grown to love the itch for more. It's a matter of personal taste, I think.

[Harorrd]

the ending was bad, real bad

[The Baconer]

This three month old-thread certainly demanded a captivating, eloquent reply of "the ending was bad, real bad."

[Chuvvy]

So, basically everyone left and Hawke's somewhere. They stretched that out into a paragraph.

[quaresma_Pt]

Well it s pretty bad yes.  The only thing i like it it was  when she talks about MY WARDEN! OH YEA:wizard:

But yea its pretty pointless. The game remid me alpha protocal or something. LOL it s the same history:D

 eheh A big no bioware!:blink:

[themonty72]

DA2 ended the way it did for DLCs, expansion pack and DA3.

Modifié par themonty72, 19 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[Plaintiff]

So what? Why does any of what you listed make an ending objectively bad? Why do we need any of that stuff? Frankly, I think we can do without it. Detailed epilogues can be just as bad as none at all, if not worse. Case in point: the epilogue of the seventh Harry Potter book. Seriously nauseating stuff.

[GavrielKay]

nightshift002 wrote...

Not a fan of either ending - but thats my personal opinion.

People keep making reference to the codex entries - the evil that lays beneath kirkwall is what causes the mages to corrupt so easily.

Excuse me if im wrong but isnt the achievement "Exorcist" - when you gather all the correct scrolls - kill the usual bad guys then finally a secret entrance opens up to "beneath" kirkwall and you fight an extremely powerful Pride demon that babbles about its control over the city.
(Act 3) for reference.

Wouldn't, as the achievement even states "exorcism" begin to release the evil spirit hold over the general public in Kirkwall.Or is something dug down even deeper - maybe the alien from super 8?

The reference I think others are making is to the Enigma of Kirkwall entries by the Band of Three.  It is about finding out that the Tevinters did some crazy stuff in Kirkwall and thinned the veil to the point of almost non-existance.  It is lunacy to house the circle of Magi in Kirkwall but you only know that if you collect and read those 12 entries.  There is a separate acheivment for those.  Archaeologist.