16 réponses à ce sujet

[SlamminHams]

Why is Stagger so much easier to apply, and therefore take advantage of?

The amount of sources that apply Stagger opposed to those that apply Brittle and Disorient is so skewed.  And then there's the fact both SnS and 2H Warriors can auto-attack apply it from two different sources.

I don't know, I just feel Stagger should be harder to apply or Brittle and Disorient should be easier to apply.

Also, a related question.  Can Mages using Cold-based weaponry apply Brittle from Auto-Attacks when specced Elemental Mastery?

[DA Trap Star]

There aren't many spells that take advantage of stagger. The only one I saw was that comboed with Stagger was the chain lightning upgrade, are there any others?

[naughty99]

Is Disorienting Shot bugged?

I never seem to get any DISORIENTED enemies, despite getting the upgrade to Pinning Shot.

I have two mages with Primal school CCC upgrades (Anders and Merril), and I'm getting lots of BRITTLE enemies with Petrify/Dessicate, pretty easily.

Only DISORIENT seems to be elusive.

@DA Trap Star - your Rogue can hit a STAGGERED opponent with Unforgiving Chain and then finish with Explosive Strike for massive damage.

Modifié par naughty99, 18 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[termokanden]

Disorienting Shot seems to be bugged. Furthermore, I'm not getting the disorienting crits I should when using Decoy along with the talent that obscures you when you enter stealth.

It is however extremely easy to disorient people with the upgraded Fatiguing Fog. If you have elemental mastery or upgraded Petrify as mentioned above, it's not that hard to cause the BRITTLE effect.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Blood Magic -> Paralyzing Hemorrhage and Force Mage -> Fist of the Maker do extra to staggered foes IIRC with upgrades.

[termokanden]

That's not what the OP is talking about. He's talking about how easy it is to apply status effects to an enemy, not how easy it is to use them. Oh sorry, I see the question was the one below the OP. Nevermind

Modifié par termokanden, 18 mars 2011 - 06:17 .

[SlamminHams]

DA Trap Star wrote...

There aren't many spells that take advantage of stagger. The only one I saw was that comboed with Stagger was the chain lightning upgrade, are there any others?

8 abilities benefit from Stagger.  Chain Lightning, Crushing Prison, Hemorrhage, and Fist of the Maker from Mages.  Lacerate, Explosive Strike, and Kickback (Varric) from Rogues.

6 benefit from Disorient, 5 benefit from Brittle.

naughty99 wrote...

Is Disorienting Shot bugged?

I never seem to get any DISORIENTED enemies, despite getting the upgrade to Pinning Shot.

I have two mages with Primal school CCC upgrades (Anders and Merril), and I'm getting lots of BRITTLE enemies with Petrify/Dessicate, pretty easily.

Only DISORIENT seems to be elusive.

I've read that Disorienting Shot is bugged, can't confirm though.

Brittle, I think, is the worst of the 3 in terms of application.  Three abilities do it, all with medium to long cooldowns (20s, 30s, and 45s), only one is AoE (Cone of Cold), and the two Frost abilities take 8 points to apply Brittle.

[termokanden]

I can confirm that I can't get Disorienting Shot to work properly. I don't know how much proof this is though

[SlamminHams]

termokanden wrote...

That's not what the OP is talking about. He's talking about how easy it is to apply status effects to an enemy, not how easy it is to use them. Oh sorry, I see the question was the one below the OP. Nevermind

My question is a, "Why is it like this?" as in from a design standpoint, not, "How do CCCs work?"

Abilities that apply Brittle and Disorient seem to always have huge cooldowns (Petrify), or high point investment costs (Elemental Mastery), or are quite situational (Cone of Cold on NM).  While, in contrast, a Warrior just has to wade into a pack of enemies and start swinging.

And I'm not trying to say Fatuging Fog or Petrify (with their associated upgrades) are bad, they just suffer from poor design decisions.  Either that, or Stagger was given out too liberally (which I figure is the case).

Modifié par SlamminHams, 18 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Loc'n'lol]

termokanden wrote...

I can confirm that I can't get Disorienting Shot to work properly. I don't know how much proof this is though

I know it doesn't work with Varric, does it also not work with Sebastian / rogue PC ? I heard conflicting reports about that.

And on topic, I agree. I think stagger shouldn't be possile to apply on auto-attacks (find another passive bonus instead, or not, 10% critical chance is already a pretty big bonus a is) AND disorient and brittle should have 100% sure ways to be applied on even the toughest of bosses.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 18 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[blueyedsoul]

And it seems like the abilities that take advantage of Stagger tend to have way more of an increase than Brittle or Disorient. Hemorrhage, Fist of the Maker, and Chain Lightning are all 600-900% damage increases, and Lacerate goes from 10% effectiveness to 100%. It just seems that STAGGER CCC's are superior in every way to the others.

[SlamminHams]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

And on topic, I agree. I think stagger shouldn't be possile to apply on auto-attacks (find another passive bonus instead, or not, 10% critical chance is already a pretty big bonus a is) AND disorient and brittle should have 100% sure ways to be applied on even the toughest of bosses.

The Claymore upgrade on Cleave gives you a 40% stagger chance on Hit too, and this ability is up around 70% of the time.

blueyedsoul wrote...

And it seems like the abilities that take advantage of Stagger tend to have way more of an increase than Brittle or Disorient. Hemorrhage, Fist of the Maker, and Chain Lightning are all 600-900% damage increases, and Lacerate goes from 10% effectiveness to 100%. It just seems that STAGGER CCC's are superior in every way to the others.

Fist of the Maker doesn't really do a lot of damage, even with a Staggered debuff, but the rest definitely do.  Hemorrhage is nearly 800 in an AoE, Explosive Strike usually was around 2200 w/ a full chain.  

(I will say that, if the three CCC debuffs persist for whatever ability consumes them, Brittle clean-ups definitely do not need a higher multiplier, as Brittle adds 50% Crit Damage (which is probably why Assassinate hits as it does).)

Essentially, Stagger seems to have the best of both worlds in the CCC spectrum.

Modifié par SlamminHams, 18 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[CLime]

It depends on party composition, really.  Explotability counterbalances ease of application. Brittle is unquestionably the debuff of choice for rogues, for example. The stagger damage on Merciless Strike is nice, but brittle Assassinate can quite literally OHKO pretty much any enemy in the game short of the truly epic bosses.  It's awesome watching golems, revenants, demons, horrors, and Ser Alric explode 5 seconds into a fight.

Modifié par CLime, 18 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[SlamminHams]

CLime wrote...

It depends on party composition, really.

Did you not read the thread...?  And as a counterpoint to your misplaced comment, a singluar Warrior can apply more exploitable debuffs to more targets more often than two Mages or Rogues can.  And they can do all while speccing into straight DPS talents.  That is the issue.

 

Explotability counterbalances ease of application. Brittle is unquestionably the debuff of choice for rogues, for example. The stagger damage on Merciless Strike is nice, but brittle Assassinate can quite literally OHKO pretty much any enemy in the game short of the truly epic bosses.  It's awesome watching golems, revenants, demons, horrors, and Ser Alric explode 5 seconds into a fight.

Except no boss level mob can be made Brittle currently.  Lieutenants, yes.  Bosses, no.  And as such, Stagger becomes a better debuff in terms of DPS.  Explosive Strike was critting two hits in the 6-7k region with a full chain and Lacerate was adding 160~ damage to each one of my auto-attacks basically every hit, which I attacked about 3 times a second with Haste up.

Modifié par SlamminHams, 18 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[ShakeyMac]

I've seen Disorient proc from Varric off of an upgraded Pinning shot, but the duration of it seems to be incredibly short. Far too short for anyone to ever take advantage of it without impeccable timing (seemed to last less than half a second). Likely it's bugged, assuming the duration of the debuffs are supposed to be equal.

[Guilebrush]

Completely agree with Brittle being a little too unreliable to apply in the current game state (even petrify doesn't proc brittle 100% vs lieutenants) but at the very least the potential payoffs for the effort are quite large.

I don't think people are giving the ease of application of disorient enough credit though. There may be fewer ways of applying it, especially from companion sources, but a Hawke Rogue designed to apply disorient can do so almost constantly. Impenetrable Fog + Disorienting Criticals can keep a target in a near perma-disoriented state, and if you have enough companions that can capitalize on this it can lead to severely high periods of burst damage. Not the most elegant way to take advantage of CCCs but it works extremely well against Bosses.

[Loc'n'lol]

Ok so I've finally maxed out the elemental tree on my mage, and it IS starting to pay off.
For the record, winter's grasp has a small AOE, it's not strictly single-target but applying on several enemies can be tricky.
Still, it's a little ridiculous that you have to take so many talents just to get something that is still subpar to stagger.