72 réponses à ce sujet

[Ace Attorney]

Everyone and their Grandma are rolling with Two Handers on Warriors. Why? Is it because of damage?
Two handers only have a slight advantage on DPS burst because of their Talents (actual auto-attack DPS is equal on same quality weapons, see here), they burn Berserk stamina slightly slower if you're a Berseker (attack swing is slower), and a bit wider arc and length (33% arc vs 25% and the +1m Talent).
Trading those advantages for Shield armor and their stats is a valid trade off in my book but not many apparently agree. Another bonus is that on Nightmare runs you could take characters like Isabela because you're not swinging a big weapon around.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 18 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[Jman5]

I'm currently working on a Sword and Shield warrior right now and I think I understand the problem. I'm only in the first act, but my companions are absolutely blowing me out of the water in terms of DPS. Varric's crossbow has the highest DPS right now, Hayder's Razor and Staff of Parthenon are practically doubling my DPS on Fadeshear.

I understand that later on SnS it starts to shine, but for now it's frustrating how weak I am. I think this is what turns a lot of people off to it.

[SlamminHams]

Here is my list of possible reasons.

• Aveline.  No, seriously.  Compared to Hawke, she'll do less damage.  Plain and simple.  If you compare what Aveline does to what you think a SnS Hawke would do, you figure it'll be suboptimal.  Hawke will have more stats, more talent points, specializations, etc that'll make him do more damage.
• Stereotypes.  "Tanks" generally do less damage, as a rule of thumb.  Sword n' Board players are usually tanks.  Similarly, 2H players usually deal damage.  I think it's just assumed in DA2 that the 2H weapons are superior.  I didn't realize on my first playthrough.
• The abilities look weaker.  Assault is the hardest hitting Warrior ability, but it doesn't look like it.  Scatter his harder than most of the 2H abilities.
• Assumptions.  Like I said on the second point, I just assumed 2handers did more damage than 1handers.  I don't think people take a second look.  Also, I figured all the SnS abilities were single target.  Boy, was I wrong...

I honestly think SnS is better than 2H in this game.  You give up some cleave damage for better survivability, higher damage abilities, and better animations.  The closing attack is awesome looking/sounding.

[rumination888]

Jman5 wrote...

I'm currently working on a Sword and Shield warrior right now and I think I understand the problem. I'm only in the first act, but my companions are absolutely blowing me out of the water in terms of DPS. Varric's crossbow has the highest DPS right now, Hayder's Razor and Staff of Parthenon are practically doubling my DPS on Fadeshear.

I understand that later on SnS it starts to shine, but for now it's frustrating how weak I am. I think this is what turns a lot of people off to it.

Fadeshear is definitely your problem. Fadeshear is complete garbage at the beginning of every act, and only becomes 2nd best by the end of every act. Even at level 25 just before the final boss, I'm pretty sure its still heavily outclassed by Blade of a Thousand Battles from the Black Emporium.

I understand people look at Fadeshear and think, "wow! it levels up with you! that must be the best DLC item in the game! why cant other specs and classes have that? OMG! so unfair!", but seriously, Fadeshear is meh.(which is a good thing BTW, freebie DLC items shouldn't be as overpowered as those in DA:O)

The best 1H in act 1 can be purchased for as little as 6 gold as soon as you have access to the docks. For comparison purposes, Fadeshear reaches 32 DPS at level 12, but the best 1H in act 1 does 38 DPS and can be gotten as early as level 6, I think. Personally, I stuck with Fadeshear because I wanted to save up the gold for other things in the Black Emporium ASAP. I still never had a problem in the early game, though.

Modifié par rumination888, 18 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Running_Blind]

Well, two handers are built around hitting a lots of enemies, if I've got a bunch trash enemies attacking me at once it's much easier just to tear them down with a two hander.

However let's say I've got a LT or elite comming at me, the DPS of both styles is actually pretty even, so against one tough guy the two-hander loses his advantage, while your sword and shield warrior can stand up to their punishing attacks and assault is a great single target attack with a low cool down, especially when used against a disorientated target.

Anyway, that's how I see it, the two-hander is a trash mob tank, while the weapon and shielder is an elite tank.

[Khayness]

I was dumb enough to roll with S&S out of sentimentality on Nightmare. You can toss around foes, thats right, but Fenris decimated everything. You don't need tanking when everything dies before they can inflict serious damage and you can kite bosses around.

I didn't get to use many Disorient abilitites, so Brittle + Scythe/Mighty Blow combo dominated my weak Assault and Scatter damage.

Using the Vigilance lookalike 1h Sword from Hybris ruled, mind controlling elite enemies was fun.

[pele506]

this is a little off topic, but i clicked on rumination888's link for the SnB on rock wraith and the video response to "its on casual newb" cracked me up for some reason.

on topic: been playing as snb since just before deep roads. I jumped on the 2hander band wagon like everyone else but found it lacking for some reason. I find SnB to be much more manageable on hard and nightmare.

I just like the ooooooo lookie bad guys. I'm gonna get ya *clicky cleave* sure you dont wanna run? *clicky sacrificial frenzy* warned ya *bad ass shield charge* *explosion of all things bad and mean to cute furry animals*

Modifié par pele506, 18 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[jsamlaw]

Jman5 wrote...

I understand that later on SnS it starts to shine, but for now it's frustrating how weak I am. I think this is what turns a lot of people off to it.

This is it exactly, IMO.  SnS Warriors have to buy a defensive pre-req point to unlock Scatter whereas 2H get +10% crit with a innate chance to stagger.  One of our three primary attacks, Shield Bash, is more for seting up cross class combos than personal DPS, and the upgrade doesn't boost its damage directly only reduces the cooldown.  2H also have the option of skipping Whirlwind and diving right into their Berserker/Reaver/Vanguard trees, while SnS need to take all 3 primary skills (Shield Bash, Scatter, Assault) to be doing the best possible DPS.  Once we get all of our skills though and can be popping Cleave/Sacrificial Frenzy/Beserker Talents we can certainly hang with 2hers since our AOE is really strong.

SnS also have more reliable stagger for setting up late game chain lightning/crushing prison.  I think its important to look at what each brings to the team as a whole and not just personal DPS (which is competitive).  I'm enjoying my SnS run, but I gotta say the Mach 5 and Ultimate Vanguard videos for 2h are certainly more flashy and are awesome in their own right.

[Ace Attorney]

jsamlaw wrote...

Jman5 wrote...

I understand that later on SnS it starts to shine, but for now it's frustrating how weak I am. I think this is what turns a lot of people off to it.

This is it exactly, IMO.  SnS Warriors have to buy a defensive pre-req point to unlock Scatter whereas 2H get +10% crit with a innate chance to stagger.  One of our three primary attacks, Shield Bash, is more for seting up cross class combos than personal DPS, and the upgrade doesn't boost its damage directly only reduces the cooldown.  2H also have the option of skipping Whirlwind and diving right into their Berserker/Reaver/Vanguard trees, while SnS need to take all 3 primary skills (Shield Bash, Scatter, Assault) to be doing the best possible DPS.  Once we get all of our skills though and can be popping Cleave/Sacrificial Frenzy/Beserker Talents we can certainly hang with 2hers since our AOE is really strong.

SnS also have more reliable stagger for setting up late game chain lightning/crushing prison.  I think its important to look at what each brings to the team as a whole and not just personal DPS (which is competitive).  I'm enjoying my SnS run, but I gotta say the Mach 5 and Ultimate Vanguard videos for 2h are certainly more flashy and are awesome in their own right.

The Mach 5 build totally works with SnS, in fact you attack faster because SnS swing faster.

[Sedamian]

because 2H gives you aoe, and MOAR NUMBERS = WIN

[Altima Darkspells]

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

[Taura-Tierno]

My SnS warrior in Origins was awful. That's why I went with 2h on my first playthrough here, and I enjoyed it a lot, actually. I didn't enjoy playing warrior in Origins, but here ... well, it was fun. I had Fenris with me, too. Together, they decimated everything.

[jsamlaw]

T3hAnubis wrote...

The Mach 5 build totally works with SnS, in fact you attack faster because SnS swing faster.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but for all of the reasons I mentioned the 2H Mach 5 build is going to be doing more damage early as compared to SnS.  Sunder + Mighty Blow + Scythe + Giants Reach is a better early game core for pure offensive numbers than is Shield Bash + Shield Defense + Assalt + Scatter.

Couple that with the fact that mages get reliable AOE brittle before rogues get reliable AOE disorient and it amplies the early game discrepancy.

I love SnS and don't regret rolling that first.  I just wish would we could take a different route than being forced into Shield Bash and Shield Defense early to unlock our DPS talents.  Shield Bash shines once your companion mages have upgraded CL or Paralyzing Prison, but until then its more of a CC move than a DPS one.

[anillop]

I don't know why. I have been playing with SnS and he is a beast. Play what you enjoy because all the ways of playing have their merits.

[SlamminHams]

jsamlaw wrote...

SnS Warriors have to buy a defensive pre-req point to unlock Scatter whereas 2H get +10% crit with a innate chance to stagger.

Giant's Reach is sort of a dump point, since it doesn't do anything some of the time.  Furthermore, Sunder works w/ SnS too.

And it's not like Warrior's have a ton of DPS talents.  You need 7 points in Sword and Shield, 6-7 in Vanguard, and 1+ in Reaver.  Beyond, most everything else is either super expensive to obtain or not really impactful.

Modifié par SlamminHams, 18 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[Ace Attorney]

SlamminHams wrote...

jsamlaw wrote...

SnS Warriors have to buy a defensive pre-req point to unlock Scatter whereas 2H get +10% crit with a innate chance to stagger.

Giant's Reach is sort of a dump point, since it doesn't do anything some of the time.  Furthermore, Sunder works w/ SnS too.

And it's not like Warrior's have a ton of DPS talents.  You need 7 points in Sword and Shield, 6-7 in Vanguard, and 1+ in Reaver.  Beyond, most everything else is either super expensive to obtain or not really impactful.

Sunder didn't work with SnS for me, I tried and never got a Stagger proc. Anyone got proof otherwise?

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 18 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[Soilborn88]

They turned to more of a focus on combat and action rather than strategy and tactics.

Truth is the battles ends so quickly that there is no need for a tank, even during boss fights.I was a 2-handed warrior with Reaver spec taking tons of damage from enemies and from my own abilities and had Merrill, Anders, and Varric in the background destroying everything.

Even with the endless and endless amounts of swarming enemies I was just teleport slashing into  amob and using Tornado and they were all dead. Get a +30% speed bonus from Fervor and I just continue my onslaught while Varric is pure DPS with 120%+ crit damage, 60% crite rate, and 60%+ attack speed from Speed, and Bianca Song buffs with Well Oiled.

Anders was there to control the battlefield with healing spells, buffs, and control with glyphs.

I was doing so much damage that I didn't need a tank. 2-Warriors might not have the best DPS but with all the AoE skills they have plus Reaver spec and the right skills in Vanguard having a tank just isn't neccassiry when you are 1 hitting entire mobs. Boss fights weren't really an issue either, I had trouble in the deep roads on hard with out a tank but after that it was all down hill.

I believe Merrill is underated. She has a lot of DPS as a pure attack mage if you build her right. I went in Primal/Pariah and some in Entropy. With Cross-Combos she was doing 4000+ dmg to enemies with chain lighting. 

We were gods.

[SlamminHams]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Sunder didn't work with SnS for me, I tried and never got a Stagger proc. Anyone got proof otherwise?

It definitely works, I've tested it myself.  I went to the Docks at night early on in Act 1, only speccing into Mighty Blow and Sunder and attacked enemies til it procced.  Keep in mind it only procs 50% of the time off of Crits.  So, for example, if you have a 10% Crit chance, 1 in 20 hits will Stagger on average.

[jsamlaw]

SlamminHams wrote...

Giant's Reach is sort of a dump point, since it doesn't do anything some of the time.  Furthermore, Sunder works w/ SnS too.

And it's not like Warrior's have a ton of DPS talents.  You need 7 points in Sword and Shield, 6-7 in Vanguard, and 1+ in Reaver.  Beyond, most everything else is either super expensive to obtain or not really impactful.

I listed Giant's Reach for comparison purposes, you can still get the main DPS skills from 2H (Mighty Blow, Sunder, Scythe) without it, which makes 2H even better early on IMO.  Sunder does not work for SnS.  Bear in mind this discussion centers around EARLY GAME comparisons not full build comparisons.

Unless, of course, you're arguing that Shield Bash and Assault do the same damage as Mighty Blow and Scythe (the latter two being enhanced by +10% crit while Shield Bash and Assault are enhanced by nothing).  If you can survive the early game rigors of SnS, you can be every bit the war machine mid-late game....no one is disputing that.

[Altima Darkspells]

Soilborn88 wrote...


I believe Merrill is underated. She has a lot of DPS as a pure attack mage if you build her right. I went in Primal/Pariah and some in Entropy. With Cross-Combos she was doing 4000+ dmg to enemies with chain lighting. 

.

Merrill is unique because you can focus exclusively on con and magic and tie up her mana in sustainables.

If she had access to the creation tree, she'd easily be the best mage in the game.  Probably to the point of making Mage Hawke a little moot.

[mysticforce42]

As more people play Nightmare, I think more would come around to the SnS style.

2H is extremely powerful - I played one on a mostly Hard play thought so I know exactly how powerful it is... however all that AE damage become a liability on Nightmare. There are very few fights where you can hope to just burst everything to death ASAP, and you end up spending half the fight making sure your 2H warrior isn't killing your party.

With SnS's 100% stagger abilities, it is *very* easy to do cross combos with a mage. On the last fight vs Orsina, Merril was popping off 5500+ chain lightnings without fear of asploding the party. A 2H warrior is mostly a liability in a boss fight - you either control that char very closely, or you have to disable a lot of tactics just so all the AE's won't chop your tank in half.

[Ace Attorney]

SlamminHams wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

Sunder didn't work with SnS for me, I tried and never got a Stagger proc. Anyone got proof otherwise?

It definitely works, I've tested it myself.  I went to the Docks at night early on in Act 1, only speccing into Mighty Blow and Sunder and attacked enemies til it procced.  Keep in mind it only procs 50% of the time off of Crits.  So, for example, if you have a 10% Crit chance, 1 in 20 hits will Stagger on average.

I just retested Sunder with an One Hander. I was partially right. You don't get the +10% to critical hit, but you do get the chance to STAGGER on critical hits.

[SlamminHams]

jsamlaw wrote...

Sunder does not work for SnS.

T3hAnubis wrote...

]I just retested Sunder with an One Hander. I was partially right. You don't get the +10% to critical hit, but you do get the chance to STAGGER on critical hits.

[Auru]

I had a heck of alot of fun in my first playthrough with my sword/shield warrior.. I took offensive stats and attacking abilities and just got stuck in

the sheer amount of disruption and stagger you can dish out is crazy, cleave > assault is massive damage.. and with scatter.. shield pummel, tremor and the likes, it's fun

Also looks awesome to slam that shield into peoples faces