72 réponses à ce sujet

[TheStrand221]

I like the looks of S&S a lot, but it bothers me that it lacks of a way to CCC Brittle. It's really annoying that there isn't a single ability in the tree that lets you do so.

Edit:  I realize the case is reversed for the 2h tree, they can't do the Disoriented CCC.  It just seems odd to only have a warrior be able to do one or the other.  I also think the Brittle CCC is better one to have.

Modifié par TheStrand221, 19 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[CitizenSnips]

As someone who ran with a SnS warrior for the entirety of DA:O and DA:A on nightmare, and most of this game before switching to a mage, I can tell you that for me it's a combination of problems. Spawning waves, assassins who will one shot your other members anyway, and group aggro issues were what stood out the most to me. I eventually just got fed up with it respecced 2H and had a much easier time. Sad to say but I mitigated more damage by just wrecking everything in 5 seconds than trying to get aggro on everything and control the fight from there. The only time I would purely tank was bosses and even then a 2h build is probably as good if not still superior.

[ezrafetch]

I'm doing an SnS build and it's pretty devastating once you pick up Cleave (and then even more so with the Claymore upgrade).  Not as much in terms of AoE, but the damage output is insane.  It's probably not exactly up to par with AoE output of a 2H, but your shield gives you more time if you want to operate under 50% health (for Blood Frenzy), so that tradeoff is more than acceptable to me.  And Claymore + Cleave with 10s cooldown Shield Bashes makes it supremely easy to set up CCCs.  I think within 5-10s of a fight it's actually rather typical to get 4-5 dudes into STAGGERED, which is easy pickin's for Merrill and Chain Lightning or Crushing Prison.

I'm not really finding it hard to maintain threat at all with Cleave + Claymore, just because the damage output is too crazy.  Plus, if you see a buddy in trouble, go and help?

SnS only works off of DISORIENTED effects, which I'm totally OK with.  I spec'd Varric to take the Sabotage tree for upgraded Confusion + Chaos and Fatiguing Fog to get those rolling.  Though I don't actually abuse the CCC too much, because I'm pinballing around too quickly to realize an enemy is DISORIENTED.  I usually put them back into STAGGERED before I can get around to exploiting that CCC.  BRITTLE is probably the worst CCC, there just aren't enough ways to proc it (which sucks, because I think it should be the best).  I'd rather work off of DISORIENTED anyways, because the -50% defense alleviates any attack rating problems, though I don't think you should really have any.
Here's mine so far: Mo Hawke for reference (yes, I totally named him Mo.  He was supposed to be B. Montgomery Hawke as in General Montgomery of WWII fame, but it didn't fit so I went there).  Went Reaver and finally dipping into Templar for anti-Assassin shenanigans.  I'm contemplating the double-upgraded Devour but I'm not sure if the points are really there.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 19 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[TheStrand221]

ezrafetch wrote...
  I usually put them back into STAGGERED before I can get around to exploiting that CCC.  BRITTLE is probably the worst CCC, there just aren't enough ways to proc it (which sucks, because I think it should be the best).  I'd rather work off of DISORIENTED anyways, because the -50% defense alleviates any attack rating problems, though I don't think you should really have any.
Here's mine so far: Mo Hawke for reference (yes, I totally named him Mo.  He was supposed to be B. Montgomery Hawke as in General Montgomery of WWII fame, but it didn't fit so I went there).  Went Reaver and finally dipping into Templar for anti-Assassin shenanigans.  I'm contemplating the double-upgraded Devour but I'm not sure if the points are really there.

I like that build a lot, it's similar to what I was thinking for a S&S.  Why did you decide to forgoe the two passives in the S&S tree?

Also, I know the chance to stagger for shield bash is the best, but how often do 2h staggers fail against normal enemies and bosses with their own abilities?  Do they fail often enough to make S&S clearly superior for reliably setting up CCC?

[CitizenSnips]

I'll think about the Vanguard tree for my next playthrough. I'm starting to think I was mistaken in trying to set up a character with a purely tanking mentality of full damage mitigation talents with no regard to damage like I did in DA:O. I'm disappointed that it's more of a headache to be a pure tank than to just go the Vanguard route that every other warrior seems to do but there it is.

[ezrafetch]

TheStrand221 wrote...

I like that build a lot, it's similar to what I was thinking for a S&S.  Why did you decide to forgoe the two passives in the S&S tree?

Also, I know the chance to stagger for shield bash is the best, but how often do 2h staggers fail against normal enemies and bosses with their own abilities?  Do they fail often enough to make S&S clearly superior for reliably setting up CCC?

I didn't take the last two passives simply because the points aren't really there.  If they were, I would take them.  I think finishing out the Templar tree is going to be a little more important at this point.

I'm not really saying 2Hs stagger less than SnS, but it's certainly not any worse for setting up CCCs.  The gulf between 2H and SnS is a lot smaller than most people think.  Mostly just small trades in more AoE for more survivability and a different required setup skill for CCCs.  I also think working off if DISORIENTED is a boon for SnS, it at least somewhat makes up for the less AoE.

[TheStrand221]

ezrafetch wrote...

I didn't take the last two passives simply because the points aren't really there.  If they were, I would take them.  I think finishing out the Templar tree is going to be a little more important at this point.

I'm not really saying 2Hs stagger less than SnS, but it's certainly not any worse for setting up CCCs.  The gulf between 2H and SnS is a lot smaller than most people think.  Mostly just small trades in more AoE for more survivability and a different required setup skill for CCCs.  I also think working off if DISORIENTED is a boon for SnS, it at least somewhat makes up for the less AoE.

I was just curious since those two abilities are part of the draw for me to S&S.  Immunity to criticals is a massive survivability boost on harder difficulty levels.

I guess I'm answering my own question here, but 100% Stagger against ALL enemies from Shield Bash is a lot better than 2h's sunder which only gives 50% Stagger chance on a critical hit.  This means S&S is probably the best for setting up Stagger CCC for a mage using Paralyzing Prison, Chain Reaction, etc.

2h's synergy with mages works the opposite way, exploiting their Brittle effect.

This makes S&S looks great to me.  Set Merrill up for huge damage spells, increased survivability, and the same damage as 2h just with a smaller AOE.

[TheStrand221]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

I'll think about the Vanguard tree for my next playthrough. I'm starting to think I was mistaken in trying to set up a character with a purely tanking mentality of full damage mitigation talents with no regard to damage like I did in DA:O. I'm disappointed that it's more of a headache to be a pure tank than to just go the Vanguard route that every other warrior seems to do but there it is.

Vanguard seems to be necessary for any warrior.  Damage output needs to be there, or survivability is moot.  Long healthbar assassins and waves of enemies will wear you down eventually.

I like having damage dealing warriors myself, I never liked the classic tank.

[jomonoe]

Just did a bit of a comparison playing with SnS and 2 hander. I used the first fight in The Last Straw to test (the one right after you pick a side). A fully upgraded Whirlwind with Sundering as my weapon did about 850 a target with Cleave active. Mighty blow did around 750-1000 depending on if it crit or not. Scythe upgraded did around 500.

A fully upgraded assault using the Sword of a Thousand Battles did around 1000 with Cleave active. It was obviously easier to hit multiple opponents with Whirlwind, though. Scatter also hit very hard at around 800.

So from what I can tell, a typical burst of damage from 2 hander goes:

Mighty blow: 800
Whirlwind: 850
Scythe: 500
Total: 2150

SnS goes:
Assault: 1000
Scatter: 800
Total: 1800
Edit: The damage of Assault sky rockets from 1000 to 3000 if upgraded Hex of Torment is used. Thus SnS does more single target damage due to the hits in Assault being able to crit individually.

*numbers tended to fluctuate a lot depending of if hits critted or not. I think that they are probably a lot closer than what I list here.

So from what I can tell, when it comes to pure damage output on a single target "burst style" without the use of CCC and without taking into consideration that individual hits in Assault can crit, 2 hander wins simply because it has that one more ability to use. Of course, damage isn't everything. SnS get's powerful defensive abilities, too, along with a controllable stagger that hits mutiple opponents. So the trade off seems pretty fair overall. I think that the point here is that both trees do massive damage to targets, enough to kill all of them in a couple seconds. So it doesn't really matter which one does more damage since the target is already dead.

I played 2 hander for all of my first playthrough and almost all of my second but decided to switch to see how powerful SnS is. Having experienced both sides, I think that SnS is just a bit better overall. This is because of Assault's crazy fast timer and the shield. The shield gives you more runes to put on and since 2 hander and SnS do similar auto attack damage, SnS is able to squeeze ahead in terms of defense (duh) and rune slots.

Note: I put 42 in strength.

Edit: so I did some more testing and it seems that SnS's damage dealing capability is even greater than what I first thought. I had Merrill cast upgraded Hex of Torment on a rage demon and then hit Assault with about 1/6th health reaming (Reaver) and Assault hit 3000 total. That's about how much I get off of a CCC Mighty Blow without criting. So it seems like the more hits that Assault does puts it ahead in terms of damage when compared to 2 hander because all three of those hits can crit.

More thougths after seeing Assault's crit numbers: So it seems like when it comes to damage output, SnS hits harder because Assault can crit on all three hits. 2 hander does not hit as hard but can hit more people at once if you take Giant's reach. I'm not sure which one I prefer, being able to hit more people or being able to hit for (far) more damage.

Modifié par jomonoe, 19 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[Ace Attorney]

jomonoe wrote...

Just did a bit of a comparison playing with SnS and 2 hander. I used the first fight in The Last Straw to test (the one right after you pick a side). A fully upgraded Whirlwind with Sundering as my weapon did about 850 a target with Cleave active. Mighty blow did around 750-1000 depending on if it crit or not. Scythe upgraded did around 500.

A fully upgraded assault using the Sword of a Thousand Battles did around 1000 with Cleave active. It was obviously easier to hit multiple opponents with Whirlwind, though. Scatter also hit very hard at around 800.

So from what I can tell, a typical burst of damage from 2 hander goes:

Mighty blow: 800
Whirlwind: 850
Scythe: 500
Total: 2150

SnS goes:
Assault: 1000
Scatter: 800
Total: 1800

*numbers tended to fluctuate a lot depending of if hits critted or not. I think that they are probably a lot closer than what I list here.

So from what I can tell, when it comes to pure damage output on a single target "burst style" without the use of CCC 2 hander wins simply because it has that one more ability to use. Of course, damage isn't everything. SnS get's powerful defensive abilities, too, along with a controllable stager that hits mutiple opponents. So the trade off seems pretty fair overall. I think that the point here is that both trees do massive damage to targets, enough to kill all of them in a couple seconds. So it doesn't really matter which one does more damage since the target is already dead.

I played 2 hander for all of my first playthrough and almost all of my second but decided to switch to see how powerful SnS is. Having experienced both sides, I think that SnS is just a bit better overall. This is because of Assault's crazy fast timer and the shield. The shield gives you more runes to put on and since 2 hander and SnS do similar auto attack damage, SnS is able to squeeze ahead in terms of defense (duh) and rune slots.

Note: I put 42 in strength.

Shield Bash does damage too, albeit small.

[AreleX]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

This basically sums it up for me. Why have a dinky sword and shield when you can have a GRR HUGE sword to swing around? I just find 2H to be much more aesthetically pleasing, along with my newfound big sword fetish (first one to knock that out of the park wins a prize), I think it's just more about the overall badass factor.

I don't think SnS is inherently worse as far as performance by any means, it just lacks that 'oomph' that 2H has. Let's say a Lamborghini and an '86 Volvo could theoretically have the same performance. If given the choice, who's NOT going to pick the Lamborghini?

(Besides you)

[ezrafetch]

TheStrand221 wrote...


Vanguard seems to be necessary for any warrior.

Truth.  Without that tree there'd be no reason to play warriors.

[Jman5]

rumination888 wrote...

Jman5 wrote...

I'm currently working on a Sword and Shield warrior right now and I think I understand the problem. I'm only in the first act, but my companions are absolutely blowing me out of the water in terms of DPS. Varric's crossbow has the highest DPS right now, Hayder's Razor and Staff of Parthenon are practically doubling my DPS on Fadeshear.

I understand that later on SnS it starts to shine, but for now it's frustrating how weak I am. I think this is what turns a lot of people off to it.

Fadeshear is definitely your problem. Fadeshear is complete garbage at the beginning of every act, and only becomes 2nd best by the end of every act. Even at level 25 just before the final boss, I'm pretty sure its still heavily outclassed by Blade of a Thousand Battles from the Black Emporium.

I understand people look at Fadeshear and think, "wow! it levels up with you! that must be the best DLC item in the game! why cant other specs and classes have that? OMG! so unfair!", but seriously, Fadeshear is meh.(which is a good thing BTW, freebie DLC items shouldn't be as overpowered as those in DA:O)

The best 1H in act 1 can be purchased for as little as 6 gold as soon as you have access to the docks. For comparison purposes, Fadeshear reaches 32 DPS at level 12, but the best 1H in act 1 does 38 DPS and can be gotten as early as level 6, I think. Personally, I stuck with Fadeshear because I wanted to save up the gold for other things in the Black Emporium ASAP. I still never had a problem in the early game, though.

My point is that at the beginning of act 1 you have all these awesome DPS weapons. Staff of Parthenon, Hayder's Razer and Varric's Bianca. SnS get Fadeshear which is still higher than early game drops, but no where near as good as the rest.

I'm not disputing that you can find or buy stuff that outclasses fadeshear, I'm simply pointing out why many new players would be turned off by SnS early game dps. Very few people would know where to look for a better/affordable 1h weapon and even fewer would know to check that hidden vendor you're speaking about.

[Ace Attorney]

AreleX wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

This basically sums it up for me. Why have a dinky sword and shield when you can have a GRR HUGE sword to swing around? I just find 2H to be much more aesthetically pleasing, along with my newfound big sword fetish (first one to knock that out of the park wins a prize), I think it's just more about the overall badass factor.

I don't think SnS is inherently worse as far as performance by any means, it just lacks that 'oomph' that 2H has. Let's say a Lamborghini and an '86 Volvo could theoretically have the same performance. If given the choice, who's NOT going to pick the Lamborghini?

(Besides you)

Exactly because SnS is the Lamborghini.

Any brute can swing a big stick, but a Shield in combat requires finesse.

[ezrafetch]

T3hAnubis wrote...

AreleX wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

This basically sums it up for me. Why have a dinky sword and shield when you can have a GRR HUGE sword to swing around? I just find 2H to be much more aesthetically pleasing, along with my newfound big sword fetish (first one to knock that out of the park wins a prize), I think it's just more about the overall badass factor.

I don't think SnS is inherently worse as far as performance by any means, it just lacks that 'oomph' that 2H has. Let's say a Lamborghini and an '86 Volvo could theoretically have the same performance. If given the choice, who's NOT going to pick the Lamborghini?

(Besides you)

Exactly because SnS is the Lamborghini.

Any brute can swing a big stick, but a Shield in combat requires finesse.

It's not how big it is, it's how you use it?

I don't really fall into either camp.  Just think that SnS is not an inferior tree by any means.  Plus, whatever happened to the traditional thought that sword and shield is cool?  Y'know, like Link or something...

[Ace Attorney]

ezrafetch wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

AreleX wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

This basically sums it up for me. Why have a dinky sword and shield when you can have a GRR HUGE sword to swing around? I just find 2H to be much more aesthetically pleasing, along with my newfound big sword fetish (first one to knock that out of the park wins a prize), I think it's just more about the overall badass factor.

I don't think SnS is inherently worse as far as performance by any means, it just lacks that 'oomph' that 2H has. Let's say a Lamborghini and an '86 Volvo could theoretically have the same performance. If given the choice, who's NOT going to pick the Lamborghini?

(Besides you)

Exactly because SnS is the Lamborghini.

Any brute can swing a big stick, but a Shield in combat requires finesse.

It's not how big it is, it's how you use it?

I don't really fall into either camp.  Just think that SnS is not an inferior tree by any means.  Plus, whatever happened to the traditional thought that sword and shield is cool?  Y'know, like Link or something...

I do too, just defending the Shield.

[TheStrand221]

AreleX wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Two-handers look better and are sexier. So they're better.

This basically sums it up for me. Why have a dinky sword and shield when you can have a GRR HUGE sword to swing around? I just find 2H to be much more aesthetically pleasing, along with my newfound big sword fetish (first one to knock that out of the park wins a prize), I think it's just more about the overall badass factor.

I don't think SnS is inherently worse as far as performance by any means, it just lacks that 'oomph' that 2H has. Let's say a Lamborghini and an '86 Volvo could theoretically have the same performance. If given the choice, who's NOT going to pick the Lamborghini?

(Besides you)

I definitely think 2h looks badass, but I have to disagree that they're cooler than S&S.  These gentlemen also seem to like their shields:

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

WARNING:  The first link may make you nostalgic for dual-wielding.

[TheStrand221]

jomonoe,


Thanks for the post sharing your experiences with both warrior types and the damage numbers you've been seeing.  It's very helpful.

I think you're right about it being fair, it seems the devs did a pretty good job balancing the two basic warrior styles.  The only issue I have with it is having to take shield defense since I prefer a more damage oriented warrior, but even that is hardly a wasted talent.  You could just pop it up any time your health falls dangerously low to boost your survivability until you can get a heal, or to go into a traditional tank mode situationally after doing a damage burst.

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...
Fadeshear is definitely your problem. Fadeshear is complete garbage at the beginning of every act, and only becomes 2nd best by the end of every act. Even at level 25 just before the final boss, I'm pretty sure its still heavily outclassed by Blade of a Thousand Battles from the Black Emporium.

I understand people look at Fadeshear and think, "wow! it levels up with you! that must be the best DLC item in the game! why cant other specs and classes have that? OMG! so unfair!", but seriously, Fadeshear is meh.(which is a good thing BTW, freebie DLC items shouldn't be as overpowered as those in DA:O)

The best 1H in act 1 can be purchased for as little as 6 gold as soon as you have access to the docks. For comparison purposes, Fadeshear reaches 32 DPS at level 12, but the best 1H in act 1 does 38 DPS and can be gotten as early as level 6, I think. Personally, I stuck with Fadeshear because I wanted to save up the gold for other things in the Black Emporium ASAP. I still never had a problem in the early game, though.

Fadeshear isn't even good because of it's base damage, it's good because of the bonus damage against undead and demons.  I usually switch to it for those fights, but otherwise have something else on my tank.  Something with useful stats.

Anyway, that's how I see it, the two-hander is a trash mob tank, while the weapon and shielder is an elite tank

This is what I was my point in another thread, and 85% or more of the game consists of trash.  If you're using your tank for staggers to buff Mages, simply being a Mage Hawke and using Aveline is superior than using yours to tank with Merril/Anders. 

The Mach 5 build totally works with SnS, in fact you attack faster because SnS swing faster.

You don't actually gain more of a speed increase over a two-handed weapon though, and you also burn through stamina much faster using a one-handed weapon.  Now that I think about it though, I bet it would look something like a Diablo 2 Paladin using Zealot or Fanaticism.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[SlamminHams]

Jman5 wrote...

My point is that at the beginning of act 1 you have all these awesome DPS weapons. Staff of Parthenon, Hayder's Razer and Varric's Bianca. SnS get Fadeshear which is still higher than early game drops, but no where near as good as the rest.

I'm not disputing that you can find or buy stuff that outclasses fadeshear, I'm simply pointing out why many new players would be turned off by SnS early game dps. Very few people would know where to look for a better/affordable 1h weapon and even fewer would know to check that hidden vendor you're speaking about.

You can buy SnS weaponry really early on in Act 1 and 2 that outclasses all nearly other 2H or SnS weaponry in either of those acts.  Thudpucker's Fist from the below the Docks at Night has 38 DPS.  You can use it by level 6 or 7 (earliest you can get to the docks is like 5).  Once you enter Act 2, you can buy The Markham Blade (or something to that effect) at the Gallows, it has 53 DPS.  To top it all off, they cost a combined 11g or so.

[Atmosfear3]

The reason I haven't played a SnS warrior yet is because Aveline is so crucial to the story. You miss out on a lot of story elements by not taking Aveline along. And if you do bring her, well then you're just a party of 2 tanks which is not at all efficient when it comes to taking down enemies. I suppose with two tanks you could skip the healer for 2 DPS instead and simply trade aggro based on potion cooldowns.

[jomonoe]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

The reason I haven't played a SnS warrior yet is because Aveline is so crucial to the story. You miss out on a lot of story elements by not taking Aveline along. And if you do bring her, well then you're just a party of 2 tanks which is not at all efficient when it comes to taking down enemies. I suppose with two tanks you could skip the healer for 2 DPS instead and simply trade aggro based on potion cooldowns.

I think that if you simply neglected to put points in Defender and instead put them into Vanguard and Berserker/ Reaver or even Templar, you can make a pretty powerful offensive SnS. Damage for Scatter and Assault are both awesome, even more so with CCC. So yeah, I think that having two SnS warriorrs won't lead to a situation where you are lacking damage as long as you build one to be offensive.

[ezrafetch]

Graunt wrote...

The Mach 5 build totally works with SnS, in fact you attack faster because SnS swing faster.

You don't actually gain more of a speed increase over a two-handed weapon though, and you also burn through stamina much faster using a one-handed weapon.  Now that I think about it though, I bet it would look something like a Diablo 2 Paladin using Zealot or Fanaticism.

Zealots?  20 Zeal, 20 Sacrifice, 20 Fanaticism, 20 Holy Shield?  Run Fanaticism for the IAS and ED, shift+Zeal and then move on.  Zealots aren't so good in D2 now though, Vindicators (Smite-oriented) are better.  But oh, D2.  I'd consider SnS warriors more like Paladins (Shield Bash = Smite...sort of, and fast auto-attacks = Zeal), and 2Hs like Barbarians (Whirlwind, except too bad DA2's WW isn't half as awesome as D2's...).  Though that is to say DA2's combat is a bit more visceral and satisfying than D2's...

How are you burning more stamina Berserking with an SnS if you're not actually attacking faster than a 2H though?  Unless I'm missing something...

That being said, I'm not a huge fan of auto-attacking, so I prefer Reaver approaches where you CAN spam abilities.

[jweath]

Running_Blind wrote...

Well, two handers are built around hitting a lots of enemies, if I've got a bunch trash enemies attacking me at once it's much easier just to tear them down with a two hander.

Not necessarily in DA2. The AOE shield attacks even the playing field. In DAO, SnS where one target guys with no AOE that is no longer the case. I haven't tested but I have seen claims SnS is doing more DPS than 2H. You also get more stagger effects with the board which can set up combos. I think the difference between 2H and SnS is much less in DA 2 than it was in DAO but I still love using scythe and seeing bodies cut in half. You don't see that with sword and board. A sns damager dealer is viable in DA2. It is hard but not impossible to get the AOEs and tanking necessities and the AOE come later for the SnB, if you want to tank/off tank and want sheild defense line than they do for 2Hs.

2H might be stronger early game but by late game the differences are not that big.

[godlike13]

They lack pizazz