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[fluorine7]

And in the end, our choices make us.

I haven't been on this forum very long and everyday I saw posts complaining about how bad the ending is, or how meaningless the choices are. I can see why people are upset, disappointed or right out furious about the ending, but I for one, believe this is actually one of the best RPG ending I had since Baldur's Gate. 

It is very true that in DA2, all roads leads to Rome. No matter what you do, you'll go to deep roads; Arishok will duel you (more or less); and Anders will blow up the Chantry. But the way I see it, these events are circumstancial events that is COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Yes, even in a RPG game, you don't have full control of the world around you, why should you? It would be boring if you can control EVERYTHING. There will be no surprises, good or bad. Sometimes, things happen because all sides pushed for it, whether they meant it or not. 

When we say "choices" in real life, there's really no second chance to know whether you made the right decision or not. There's no way for you to "replay" the event and see how things would end up differently if your choices are different. It is very possible that in many occasion, thing would be the same regardless what decision we make. The only reason all of us know Anders would blow up the Chantry no matter what, is because we played it again and found out. So if you can only play this game once, without knowing any of the guide/walkthrough/discussion, I'm sure the ending comes as a shocking turn of event which eventually left you thinking about what is right and what is wrong. 

Ultimately, your decision should only carry weight with you. In a RPG, it shapes your character. I'm sure we all have a different Hawke because we make decision differently, based on different reason. 

That being said, there're decisions which actually make a difference. They're subtle decisions and often lack of a single moment for you to pick your path that will make direct impact of immediate outcome. There's no single "save" you can reload to make the decision again if you "screw up". For example, if you don't keep Isabella on your good side, if you choose (yes it is YOUR CHOICE) not to develope a solid friendship with her, she will leave you with the book and never reture. You'll have to face Arishok's rage alone. If you choose to set Anders free, Sebastian will leave you. If you choose to stand with the mages, and neglet friendship development with Fenris, he'll stand with the Templers and fight you to death. A lot of time, because of lack of single choices, the game forces you to live with the consequences of your choices, which in turn probably pissed off a lot of people. 

There're many games nowadays that offers choices (not only RPGs), and they often focus on single moment decisions that pin point the turn of event for the entire game. Dragon Age 2, however, provide some very sutble decision making that really requires consistant character development. So you can say the end result is not based on a single decision but rather the personality you choose for your Hawke. Eventually, you realize there're choices to make, but there's no happy ending. You didn't really saved the world but rather, you somehow helped to start a war. You realize history run its course regardless of what you choose.

But does it really not matter? 

It matters to me. It matters when Anders blow up the chantry, when Zevran and Donnic showed up during end battle, when Isabella abandoned me, when I decided to take the blame for Merrill, when Fenris decided to stand by my side even he didn't agree with my choices... It matters when knowing if I set Anders free, my decision will mean more war for Kirkwall. I think that's what DA2 is about. It is not a game that will make you feel better by letting you control your surrounding, by letting you "save the world". It is a game about choices, and how insignificant and yet heavy  your choices can be. 

For that, I want to say "Bravo Bioware!" 

[Medhia Nox]

I'm glad you enjoyed it and got what you paid for.

[Noatz]

A lot of people seem to have difficulty understanding that divergent endings make it incredibly difficult to tell a story, which is Bioware's main objective with this series. So if people are angry about the ending of DA2 being something THEY didn't want and that there wasn't the option available that THEY wanted for some fairytale ending, they should first consider that for any follow up like an expansion Bioware would have to almost write two or more stories to account for different endings. Or partially disconnect any follow up from the plot of the original like they had to do for Awakening. And because DA2 and its expansions follow Hawke's continuing story the latter isn't much of an option.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

I agree this game likes to have an aggregate of your choices effect the story more than any one choice (unlike, say Mass Effect, which is designed on a series of BIG choices), which is sort of refreshing. I definitely noticed how different my ending felt on the second playthrough, even the same major plot points happen. I still felt like I had built two different characters, despite much of teh same major plot points happening. It was interesting.

I loved the Anders twists and the Civil War angle. I only have some reservations about how the boos fights played out (OH NOES Orsino was influenced by Blood Magic! and Meredith by a crazy dwarven relic, that's why they went crazy = slight cop-out) But overall I loved the way the story played out here.

[Werrf]

Not much I can add, beyond "Well said!" and thanks for saying so well what I've been trying to say so poorly

[Dangerfoot]

Noatz wrote...

A lot of people seem to have difficulty understanding that divergent endings make it incredibly difficult to tell a story, which is Bioware's main objective with this series. So if people are angry about the ending of DA2 being something THEY didn't want and that there wasn't the option available that THEY wanted for some fairytale ending, they should first consider that for any follow up like an expansion Bioware would have to almost write two or more stories to account for different endings. Or partially disconnect any follow up from the plot of the original like they had to do for Awakening. And because DA2 and its expansions follow Hawke's continuing story the latter isn't much of an option.

It's only difficult to make divergent endings if you are planning a direct sequel, which they are obviously. I really hope that in the next game they make your descisions actually count for something.

[Marcy3655]

It's a great city adventure, for what city has ever been without lies, greed, murder and treachery?

All cities have those elements, for Hawke to eliminate them completely would be unreasonable, they are too big for one person to fight.. and there are too many of them... Hawke can change things, possibly make things better yes.. but completely eliminate the darker elements of the city is I think asking too much even of a Hawke..

This is a very dark story, but all cities have that dark side... some really terrible things happen to Hawke and his/her family as the story progresses, but when you try to intervene into factions that are inherently evil bad things are going to happen and it's Hawkes resolute nature that allows him/her to keep on going even when things go so terribly wrong...

I think this story is really well done, does it make me sad when some of those events happen to Hawke? of course, but without a price to pay there would be no risk and in the end an unsatisfying conclusion.. I felt bad for Hawke sitting there in his/her mansion all alone, with no one to talk to in the end.. but that's the story and not all of them are going to have a happy ending..

M

[Parrk]

Not enough is said about the aggregate effects of attitude choices. I was dismayed to find that when I chose the sarcasm option too oftem in the early game, I was not able to solve the dalish assassin encounter without killing 15 dalish.

That is not the type of choice or control that some are complaining about not having though. No, what they want is far more ludicrous. They want to be able to use information about what happens in the end of the game to make decisions about the early game and prevent those things from happening.

They are not at all satisfied by the constraints of space-time, or the notion of imperfect information. The player knows that anders is gonna bomb the church so dammit I want my toon to have the opportunity to stop him......

If you want to metagame to that degree then why not just use a save generator and play it that way?

Then they will complain that they cannot alter the font of the save generator. Some people are addicted to being unsatisfied.

[fthg42]

Great post, OP, and I completely agree. For me, DAII was more about defining who my Hawke was as a character and person, and in that sense, the story felt like a callback to that of the BG series. It's all about the means to the end and the road you took to get there, not necessarily the end itself. That's what makes an RPG golden for me.

[fluorine7]

Dangerfoot wrote...

It's only difficult to make divergent endings if you are planning a direct sequel, which they are obviously. I really hope that in the next game they make your descisions actually count for something.

But your decision DO count for something.

It's just not in the way you have hoped for. Your choices doesn't leads to a peaceful solution no matter what you do. Because the conflict between Templar and Mages runs deep, no one can turn the tide at this point. A series event that surrounded Hawke serves as a fuse of what would be a full blow civil war between the circle and chantry. 

Your decision counted for if Qunari would come back in a full invasion army. it counted for if Starkhaven would come back seeking revange. It counted for if you'd have Anders take responsibility for his action... All of things that might have happened differently had you made a different choice. 

Although, none of these decisions leads to "the war is over, the evil demon who's responsible for every evil deed is dead, and the hero and his pals lives happily ever after". 

[armagite]

chuckle quite simply I believe most people did like the fact at the end we had to fight everyone anyway.... maybe a options of join us, join them or fight everyone disappointed people. maybe a 4th one of bugger this I've not getting involved, everyone docks this way!

[Noatz]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Noatz wrote...

A lot of people seem to have difficulty understanding that divergent endings make it incredibly difficult to tell a story, which is Bioware's main objective with this series. So if people are angry about the ending of DA2 being something THEY didn't want and that there wasn't the option available that THEY wanted for some fairytale ending, they should first consider that for any follow up like an expansion Bioware would have to almost write two or more stories to account for different endings. Or partially disconnect any follow up from the plot of the original like they had to do for Awakening. And because DA2 and its expansions follow Hawke's continuing story the latter isn't much of an option.

It's only difficult to make divergent endings if you are planning a direct sequel, which they are obviously. I really hope that in the next game they make your descisions actually count for something.

I expect you'll find your DA2 choices counting for something in future games.

If Anders is dead there may be some cult or movement that idolises him you have to deal with. If hes alive you may have to hunt him down.

If your sibling is in the Grey Wardens you may meet them again and bust some darkspawn.

If Merril didn't kill her clan you may meet them again.

If you sold out Isabela she may come and try to assassinate you.

Its foolish to say "my choices count for nothing" when you haven't even seen if/how they play out.

[fluorine7]

I thought if you let Qunari take Isabella, the Qunaris will convert her...Can you imagine a straight face Isabella who serves the demand of Qun? I'd pay to see that....LOL.

[Marcy3655]

scripting game events must be extremely challenging, this game with all of its interwoven plot threads and events must have been challenging even for seasoned scripting experts... there are so many quests and events taking place it would be impossible to script a different game for all the major choices Hawke has to make through the course of a game... it is what 6 or 7 gigabytes to install the game? If there was a different game for each major decision and combinations of major decisions Hawke has to make the game would be more like 120 Gb to install.. lol

There are limitations built into the scripting system and have to be accounted for at least to some degree... I'm absolutely amazed at the scripting team for this game, they did an incredible job with what they had to work with, and I think this city adventure is one of the best to date even with those limitations at play...

M

[Dangerfoot]

Noatz wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

Noatz wrote...

A lot of people seem to have difficulty understanding that divergent endings make it incredibly difficult to tell a story, which is Bioware's main objective with this series. So if people are angry about the ending of DA2 being something THEY didn't want and that there wasn't the option available that THEY wanted for some fairytale ending, they should first consider that for any follow up like an expansion Bioware would have to almost write two or more stories to account for different endings. Or partially disconnect any follow up from the plot of the original like they had to do for Awakening. And because DA2 and its expansions follow Hawke's continuing story the latter isn't much of an option.

It's only difficult to make divergent endings if you are planning a direct sequel, which they are obviously. I really hope that in the next game they make your descisions actually count for something.

I expect you'll find your DA2 choices counting for something in future games.

If Anders is dead there may be some cult or movement that idolises him you have to deal with. If hes alive you may have to hunt him down.

If your sibling is in the Grey Wardens you may meet them again and bust some darkspawn.

If Merril didn't kill her clan you may meet them again.

If you sold out Isabela she may come and try to assassinate you.

Its foolish to say "my choices count for nothing" when you haven't even seen if/how they play out.

Those are very small effects compared to the ending of Origins. All of the choices in DA2 were very limited compared to its predesessor, very A or B, and even so a lot of the A or B leads to the same result. But I'm accepting that all you get out of DA2 is companion related, if anything. I just hope that in DA3 you make real descisions that will end up giving you a real variable driven ending. Like the first one.

[vigna]

Well, at least this is a reasonable OP. Unlike half the threads on this forum.

[Captain_Obvious]

fluorine7 wrote...

It is very true that in DA2, all roads leads to Rome. No matter what you do, you'll go to deep roads; Arishok will duel you (more or less); and Anders will blow up the Chantry. But the way I see it, these events are circumstancial events that is COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. 

So if you can only play this game once, without knowing any of the guide/walkthrough/discussion, I'm sure the ending comes as a shocking turn of event which eventually left you thinking about what is right and what is wrong. 

This.  

I specifically stayed away from spoilers until I beat it once.  Jaw-dropping doesn't begin to cover the sense I had at the end of the game.   

[Noatz]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Those are very small effects compared to the ending of Origins. All of the choices in DA2 were very limited compared to its predesessor, very A or B, and even so a lot of the A or B leads to the same result. But I'm accepting that all you get out of DA2 is companion related, if anything. I just hope that in DA3 you make real descisions that will end up giving you a real variable driven ending. Like the first one.

Its true they are smaller, and I think this is deliberate. You cannot make a sequel to a game like Origins, use the PC from a game like Origins, carry on plot threads from a game like Origins to any future games. There are too many variables. Its why they had Hawke get out of dodge before the Warden went across Ferelden shaping it to the player's will.

And this is ultimately what its about, and why so many people complain about DA2 and prefer Origin's grandiose cliched plot - control. They like being able to walk into Orzammar and choose who gets to be the next king. They like being able to defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes *just because*. They like holding the lives of the Circle mages in their hands. DA2 is a reminder that you're playing people, not gods. That by and large the way the world works is that events shape people more than people shape events. And I guess players don't on the whole enjoy being reminded of the real world , even if it makes for a better story.

[ricco19]

When you invest 80 hours into a game that you are constantly making decisions that you hope have a positive outcome on events, and are forced into some bad decisions regardless, it disappoints a lot of people including myself.

In my opinion the ending of this game was so superfluous and depressing. I felt like all the time I put into this game had no satisfying ending. Seeing basically my entire family get slaughtered, friends turn on me, and war being waged I figured there would be something redeeming by the end of the game. There wasn't, and even though I tried making the best decisions possible it had no bearing on it.

Why give us so many different choices if no matter what, we are being funneled to the same outcomes? It's like they tricked us. Especially for those of us who are Mass Effect fans, where all those decisions made a giant impact on the game. Why did I spend so much time pondering a decision where the outcome was the same either way?

[CRISIS1717]

fluorine7 wrote...

I thought if you let Qunari take Isabella, the Qunaris will convert her...Can you imagine a straight face Isabella who serves the demand of Qun? I'd pay to see that....LOL.

I assumed they were going to execute her, the Qunari don't take kindly to thieves and they don't care for anyone who isn't a follower of the Qun.

[DarkWulfy]

Noatz wrote...

I expect you'll find your DA2 choices counting for something in future games.

This statement was a lot more valid 2 weeks ago before DA2 was released. But now that we have all had our taste of the game, and discovered first hand how our choices from DA:O affected DA2 (or rather how they DIDN'T), sadly I simply don't think this is an assumption we can make any more.

[DrGulag]

I can understand how some people enjoyed the possibility to play a more linear adventure but I was often unable to roleplay my character at all, because I had no idea what the choices even were!!

In Dragon Age Origins I knew what I was about to say. So even if I had no control over large incidents like the slaughter at Ostagar, I was still able to taunt the King as an elf and had certain freedom over the direction of all the conversations.

This game was a conversation lottery where often you say the opposite of what you wanted. How is that roleplaying? Why even have that stupid dialogue wheel if it's so random or only the tone of your voice changes.

"Please be nicer"  "HEY BASTARD BE NICE"  "Oh how nice you are"

I end up with +5 rivarly, +15 rivarly and it doesn't make even any sense.

To me it's just poor writing.

Modifié par DrGulag, 18 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[fluorine7]

well......................people....

if you really think about it, all RPGs leads to same end.

in DA:O, you end up killing the Arch Demon, no matter what.

in Mass Effect1, you end up killing Sovereign and Saren, no matter what.

in Mass Effect 2, you end up killing Harbinger, no matter what.

I can argue all other choices are minor as well.

The ONLY difference between DA2 and other games is that, in DA2, there's no good ending. No matter what you do, Chantry will get blow up, people will die, friends will leave you.

It's not "we don't have a choice!" but rather "no choices leads to happy ending!"

[Werrf]

Why give us so many different choices if no matter what, we are being funneled to the same outcomes? It's like they tricked us. Especially for those of us who are Mass Effect fans, where all those decisions made a giant impact on the game. Why did I spend so much time pondering a decision where the outcome was the same either way?

You're not being funnelled to the same outcomes, you're being funnelled to different outcomes in your character's life. The end result for the city will be very similar, no matter what. The end result for Hawke will be different. She may have a sister alive, a brother alive, both dead, one alive but gone with the Grey Wardens. She may be gay, straight, bi; may be a diplomat, a sarcastic ****, a psycho, a sarcastic psycho, a psychotic diplomat, a mercenary, rebel; You couldn't make any of these choices, apart from the gay/straight/bi one, in Origins.

The Warden was very carefully and deliberately manoeuvred into a position where pretty much every available authority figure was either gone, unavailable, or deliberately delegating their authority to you. Think of the string of coincidences that were needed every single time: the Kind had to be dead, all the other Grey Wardens had to be dead, Loghain had to be evil, Alistair had to be weak, the Dwarven king had to be gone, the succession had to be deadlocked...it goes on and on. At some point, all those coincidences are going to start straining credulity. That's why I liked this story.

Bottom line, once again, try treating the story of DA:2 as the story of Hawke, not the story of Origins. You may find you like it better.

[fluorine7]

DrGulag wrote...

I can understand how some people enjoyed to play a more linear adventure but I was often unable to roleplay my character, because I had no idea what the choices even were.

In Dragon Age Origins I knew what I was about to say. This game was a conversation lottery where often you say the opposite of what you wanted. How is that roleplaying?

I end up with +5 rivarly, +15 rivarly and it doesn't make even any sense.

To me it's just poor writing.

LOL, actually... that's two style of role play I guess. You either play for an result, or you play to create a character. Don't you think knowing what would happen before you make decision is more linear than "conversation lottery"? In fact, DA2 is far from conversation lottery. The conversation result doesn't always go with "be nice and nice thing happen". it varies based on situation or personality of the person you're dealing with. 

from that perspective, the game is surprisingly consistant.