7 réponses à ce sujet

[TheDauntless]

I have to say I'm disappointed that once again the same-sex option in a BioWare game is just a token offering. He is the stereotypical fall guy for this. Just like his predecessors in KOTOR, JE, and ME he is convenient for the budget and outnumbered in the game. Bravo. I'm not one to waste my money on crumbs.

But I'm grateful that BioWare released this thing for reviews ahead of time. I had hopes that if Alistair were open it would be a friendly inclusion and a respectful gesture to the intelligence of BioWare players. That didn't happen and the disappointment that I feel was shared in an earlier thread, mostly by straight posters. Surprise? Going slightly off-topic here, but I'm not pleased about the love-triangle soap operas either.

Making the gay/bi character out to be an afterthought is wrong. Better to not have one at all than to insult us. Making him the alien yet again, and easily interchangeable is very cheap and it doesn't seem to be fooling anybody. I don't know who the female counterpart is/are if any, but in this area DA already failed hard.

I was willing to forgive the visuals that no art team seemed willing to touch as well as the gore, since I'm still a fan of great storytelling. But that can only go so far when I feel left out repeatedly. I think this was never my kind of game to look forward to. The spoilers in the reviews make it clear there won't be the one aspect that kept me interested in this until now.

I still look forward to ME2 and ME3. I am more of a space opera lover. And at least there I'll be going in without high hopes of being included. As for this, I suggest if you keep doing it wrong then find somebody who is willing to do it right.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[Sheryl Chee]

TheDauntless wrote...

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will in a sec. I just have to say that everytime someone says that Alistair seems manlier than Zevran. I laugh. Like this:      

[David Gaider]

I get that Zevran may not be to everyone's tastes, straight or gay. That's hardly news. Every character is going to have their supporters and detractors, both before and after they play the game -- those who revile them and can't understand how *anyone* likes them, as well as those who adore them and fight the haters.



Or you could have apathy, I guess, where nobody really cares. I'm not sure that's better.



How one could come to the opinion that Zevran is a... what was the word? A throwaway gay character? That we just kind of anointed him gay at the last minute because we were afraid to make another character the option? Yeah... no. I don't really have much to say on that point except that Zevran was conceived of this way right from the beginning. If someone wants to claim discimination because they didn't get the option they wanted, then so be it.



As for those who think Zevran is a stereotype, I guess I can kind of see that although I suspect people are drawing lines for themselves based mostly on his appearance. I'd say he's far more flamboyant than he is effeminate, and if the assertion is that a gay/bi character can\\t be flamboyant without also being a bad stereotype -- well, at that point I'll just let the character speak for himself in the game. I'm proud of how he ended up, and those who have played the romance so far rather adore him.



I see this as inclusion rather than discrimination, but certainly people are free to draw whatever conclusions they will. Sorry for those who aren't satisfied; I hope you like what's actually there when (and if) you play the game.

[Sheryl Chee]

To add to that, who confronts you about your dalliances may change depending on how far you've gotten in the various romances you're engaged in.



(spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler)

















If Zevran cares for you enough, he may confront you about starting something with Morrigan, for example. So he is by no means only a "wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am" afterthought.



And it's not always a "him or me" type conversation, like the article seems to imply. Sometimes followers are just a little confused and want some clarification. Imagine you're Leliana, and you've started a fun flirtation with this really cute boy. And suddenly your learn that your cute boy is also sleeping with Zevran. Hang on a minute, is your boy into girls, or boys? Not that there's anything wrong with either, but maybe you'd like to hear what the cute boy has to say about it.

[Sheryl Chee]

bd223437 wrote...
 Sheryl Chee has said (as synthesized from a post named after the article on the Dragon Age spoiler forum and her post in this thread) that at different points for different romantic options it is possible for monogamy.  The concern here is that Zevran is the last to fall in line reinforcing the negative image of homosexual males as interested in multiple partners.  Hope that catches you up to speed.

I wasn't really going to respond to this thread anymore because it really feels as though it's gone in circles and isn't going anywhere new at this point, but you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Zevran is running off to sleep with random, nameless NPCs while you, the player, are busy fighting darkspawn. You seem to believe that the player is the one that has to fight to keep Zevran monogamous, and I'm not even sure where you got this idea, because it's clear, even from the article, that it's the PC doing the sleeping around, not Zevran. The player is the one with agency here. If you want a a monogamous relationship with Zevran, you can get one from the start. 

Modifié par Sheryl Chee, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:15 .

[Mary Kirby]

bd223437 wrote...

The impression comes from this:   "Bam. Afterwards, he makes it quite clear that he doesn't expect me to
put a ring on it. He's a himbo, and to be fair, that does square with
his backstory -- born in a brothel, raised as an assassin, recounts a
tale about sleeping with a female assassination target before carrying
out his job, etc."  Taken from the article we're discussing, fifth to last paragraph directly under the pictures of a PC and Zevran following the link posted on the DA:O spoiler forum.  Along with your suggestion that the player can persue monogamy, I would suggest that yes the player, as the agent, has to fight for him since he's not making it clear, to the author at least, that he is interested in monogamy.  This is in contrast to the author's discussion of Leliana and Morrigan which suggests they are pushing for exclusivity at that time. 

I would further suggest that even if he isn't currently prowling the nearest town or camp for a no names rendezvous, the author was left with the impression that he had such relationships in the past and that this is perfectly within his character as evidenced by the second to last paragraph:  "But the casual sex, which could be used as a tool to deepen your
understanding and empathy for the other characters, tends to reinforce
the idea of women as alternately jealous, catty, smothering, and
weak-willed (easily taking back a lover that has strayed), while
perpetuating the stereotype of the promiscuous gay/bisexual man." 

Presently however, if my understanding is misguided it is due to the synthesis of the information presented in this article, with particular attention paid to the portions highlighted above.  This, coupled with the explanation that the comparison group of Morrigan and Leliana are, at the point in the game the article discusses, seeking monogamy sooner than Zevran leads to the understanding that you have to put in more effort for that with all other relationships being equal.  I do truly appreciate you taking the time and reassuring us that monogamy is possible for all relationship opportunities. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and further my understanding.  Also, please understand, regardless of what stereotypes are or are not embraced by any particular character, I personally do appreciate that same sex partners were included and look forward to a more complete understanding once the game is released.

I am going to kick everyone's puppies now and reveal that none of the romances have or allow "open" relationships.  To take all the romance out of the romances and show you the mechanics:  Every single character gives you an "it's me or him/her" speech if they are in love with you and one other romance NPC is in love with you.  Hitting the "love" state is what triggers the jealousy talk for all characters.  Even Zevran.

More mechanics: Everyone will take you back if you stray or tick them off a maximum of two times.  After that, you're dumped.  That was your failsafe so that you could pick one or two conversation options that upset them without terminating the romance irrevocably. 

Depending on personality, some characters will sleep with you before they fall in love.  They will give you an "I don't want to be tied down" speech.  Once they fall in love, you get an, "Okay, remember how I said I didn't want to be tied down?  Yeah, maybe I was wrong" speech.

They are absolutely all scripted the same.  What does this say about our portrayal of characters as weak-willed , catty, or promiscuous?  Nothing whatsoever since they are completely uniform in this regard across gender, sexuality, and personality.  Computer programs.  Go figure.

[Mary Kirby]

bd223437 wrote...


Thank you Ms. Kirby!  It is unfortunate that the author of that article was unable to trigger them with Zevran which led him to that interpretation.  I am very glad that this presented the option for you to officially dispell the misconception that Bioware would somehow deal with available relationships in an unequal manner. 

You'll always get Zevran later in the game than Morrigan or Leliana, and therefore anyone who is trying all the romances at once will naturally be further behind in approval with him than with anyone else.  It isn't at all surprising that the reviewer didn't trigger his jealousy or love talks.  The reviewer also didn't play female and therefore didn't see Alistair have the exact same sort of jealous reaction/forgiveness as Leliana or Morrigan.

[David Gaider]

bd223437 wrote...
I would suggest the author of that article didn't believe it was possible so between not possible and eventually possible it would suggest player effort intervenes, but we have the final say which I am more than happy with.  Thanks again to Ms. Chee and Ms. Kirby for taking part in this discussion. 

The thing about the article is that the author got up to the sex scene and the stuff that Zevran says after that point and seems to take it completely at face value. Zevran leaves the player an out, if a casual relationship is indeed what the player wants, but the player can certainly take it further than that -- at which point Zevran is getting into unfamiliar territory and things get interesting. Did the reviewer get there? I can't rightly say, but for all the possible romances the sex is by no means the be-all and end-all of their relationship.

Does Zevran have a more pragmatic attitude towards sex? Yes he does. That's a result of his upbringing and not so much of his sexual preferences. Does this make him a "himbo" who only treats the relationship cavalierly as some kind of quickie? No, nor do I think that's all a gay relationship can (or should) be, but that may be as far as a player wishes to take it and certainly Zevran advocates (at least initially) that this may be for the best.

Someone can get anxious about the idea that he may just be a stereotype, but as Mary points out Zevran is ultimately handled much the same as any relationship with the player. Different in character, perhaps, but not in nature.

Beyond that, I'll leave you to judge for yourselves as the game is right around the corner. As some people have mentioned, a lot of these speculations are being conjured based on assumptions of a stereotype that you'll find just doesn't match the reality. This is not to say that everyone will automatically like *any* character or find them personally suitable as a romance -- but we were never aiming to satisfy everyone on that front, straight or gay, nor is such a thing possible. I'm pretty confident that most players have a pretty reasonable attitude on this front, and those who choose to take part in one of the romances are likely to find something to enjoy in them. And that's my two cents (again).