478 réponses à ce sujet

[TheDauntless]

I have to say I'm disappointed that once again the same-sex option in a BioWare game is just a token offering. He is the stereotypical fall guy for this. Just like his predecessors in KOTOR, JE, and ME he is convenient for the budget and outnumbered in the game. Bravo. I'm not one to waste my money on crumbs.

But I'm grateful that BioWare released this thing for reviews ahead of time. I had hopes that if Alistair were open it would be a friendly inclusion and a respectful gesture to the intelligence of BioWare players. That didn't happen and the disappointment that I feel was shared in an earlier thread, mostly by straight posters. Surprise? Going slightly off-topic here, but I'm not pleased about the love-triangle soap operas either.

Making the gay/bi character out to be an afterthought is wrong. Better to not have one at all than to insult us. Making him the alien yet again, and easily interchangeable is very cheap and it doesn't seem to be fooling anybody. I don't know who the female counterpart is/are if any, but in this area DA already failed hard.

I was willing to forgive the visuals that no art team seemed willing to touch as well as the gore, since I'm still a fan of great storytelling. But that can only go so far when I feel left out repeatedly. I think this was never my kind of game to look forward to. The spoilers in the reviews make it clear there won't be the one aspect that kept me interested in this until now.

I still look forward to ME2 and ME3. I am more of a space opera lover. And at least there I'll be going in without high hopes of being included. As for this, I suggest if you keep doing it wrong then find somebody who is willing to do it right.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[jegillan]

Is this a troll post? You do realize that even including a M/M romance in any way shape or form is a potential risk for Bioware, right? I'm not the least bit homophobic, but what you seem to fail to understand is that you are in the vast minority. Why should they spend as much time on something that will please only 5% of the population when they can spend that time on something that 95% of the population expects?



I'm glad there is a M/M romance in Dragon Age. I will not make use of it, but I'm sure others will. What I find irritating is that they are actually trying to reach out to a small population of gamers, and yet it still isn't good enough. And if the only reason you wanted to play Dragon Age was for the gay sex, you're probably better off passing anyway.

[b09boy]

Well if you really want to base your decision to buy a video game on it's handling of a bisexual character then I only have one thing to say.



k

[TheDauntless]

Well if you really want to base your decision to buy a video game on
it's handling of a bisexual character then I only have one thing to say.



k

Given that my following hypothetical scenario is unlikely to happen, I wonder how you would assess your spending power if it were straight characters in the minority not just in DA, but in all forms of media? Unlikely, unlikely.

jegillan wrote...

Is this a troll post? You do realize that even including a M/M romance in any way shape or form is a potential risk for Bioware, right? I'm not the least bit homophobic, but what you seem to fail to understand is that you are in the vast minority. Why should they spend as much time on something that will please only 5% of the population when they can spend that time on something that 95% of the population expects?

I think what you fail to understand is the attention BioWare is "probably" already scheduled to have from Concerned Women for America, Family Research Council, Focus on the Family, and other censors etc. just from the straight sexual content that is supposed to please 95% of the focus groups attributed to your type. Such a dealbreaker it would be to double the amount of male gay from 1 to 2 under that kind of scrutiny, by your opinion.

If someone like me is to be treated as a minority/afterthought/crumb/label in BioWare's game-worlds then I can't see the point of putting in money and hours just to be second-best. I don't think anyone enjoys role-playing just to feel like they'll only get to be a small part of the world they're trying to shape. BioWare certainly made their choice and I've made mine.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:12 .

[hexaligned]

Good luck waiting for a game that caters exclusively to gay men? I don't really see your point in arguing you are being treated as a tiny minority...when you are coming from a tiny minority. Seems you must get disappointed often if that's the case.



Actually I don't see your point at all, you have no idea how the romance will turn out, it could be the best written in the game for all you know.

[TheDauntless]

This is the thread I was alluding to at the start. http://social.biowar...x/43847/1#43847 If it hadn't derailed before I logged in my post would've gone in there.

Imported, when I say I think of Zevran as a token offering I mean that he is a token offering by what he means to gay gamers. Whatever else he may be, I do not ignore the fact that he was selected because he is the male in the group who would be everybody's first guess is gay/bi because of stereotypical prejudices. BioWare bowed to the notion that the majority of gamers who are not gay would end up resisting the idea that a gay/bi male can't resemble somebody like Alistair. A human, athletic, masculine, white male. Witness how rare it is to see such an example in movies or TV. As in never. They're afraid it won't sell, but to me plenty of people in the other thread were open to the idea of Alistair being atypical.

There's also a problem with the fact that he is the only choice for male gay characters. Think of it this way. Gay gamers are being treated as second-class despite having interest and means to buy this game just like straight gamers, because we are not allowed to experience it to the extent that straight gamers can. The feeling that we lack equal choices and consideration is not one that I can easily overlook, but I can't speak for all gay gamers.

Good luck waiting for a game that caters exclusively to gay men? I
don't really see your point in arguing you are being treated as a tiny
minority...when you are coming from a tiny minority. Seems you must get
disappointed often if that's the case.

I'm assuming you are not from one. I'm beginning to understand what some people have stuck in their heads. Straight and gay not being equal. Remarkably that is also the same thought in my mind. Only coming from me, the idea is that it can be equal in the game world. Coming from most people in this thread, it would be too uncomfortable to think the gays can have it good too. I'm just not sure why that would be. Why would someone consciously trigger any gay content if they're straight?

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:39 .

[maerae]

On one hand I can kinda sympathize with you. Being a lady gamer, we're not always the first priority either and I don't know how many times I've seen the pat answer; well your not the majority and they want to cater to the majority. Yea it's frustrating.



I've often wanted to have more then just one guy to choose from to romance. Or at least said romance to be well interesting ( Skye,anyone?)!



On the other hand, Zev may be a great character. Just won't know till we play the game.

[Saurel]

imported_beer wrote...
 There are men who are upset they don't get a female elf, or the dryad. We all have our own personal wishes and it is horrid when we don't get them. But I don't understand why it needs to be about discrimination when that happens.

You are my hero , imported beer

One day reformed desire demon, one day

Modifié par Saurel, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Wittand25]

I think that you should wait to see what Zevran is really like in the game and not judge him by the short charactertrailer.

[IIsatar]

I applaud you for having a psychic knowledge of Bioware's intentions. Clearly, they must align with whatever you are thinking. Clearly, the whole thing was just thrown together at the last minute because with such a topic, last minute thinking and actions are possible. I agree with you four thousand and eighteen percent that they're just paying out a token offering to the gay gaming community, whom at large probably don't give a **** about this whole ordeal on such a petty level.



Your gay tastes vary differently from the next gay guy. I know a good majority of gays who love Zevran. Hell I'm straight and I love him. Stop complaining about such small details - you know full bloody well they can't please everyone. All they can do is try to make the most people happy. If you understand that, the gaming world will make so much more sense to you, and you will be left happier for it.



Your gay mileage may vary. (I know that this line is absolutely irrelevant, but I just felt I needed to say it )

[TheDauntless]

imported_beer wrote...

I do not have a stereotypical notion of what a gay NPC  is supposed to look like- so I am not sure what you mean.
I do know how proud Mr. Gaider was about that character and about that romance, and how he said he had never written anything quite like Zevran. He didn't say that about any of the others.

As for "why can't my romance  be with the cute, athletic guy", I don't know if the reason is bias. There are women who are upset they didn't get the big beefy Sten, or the sophisticated and older Duncan. There are men who are upset they don't get a female elf, or the dryad. We all have our own personal wishes and it is horrid when we don't get them. But I don't understand why it needs to be about discrimination when that happens.

Stereotypical gay males usually = fey/effeminate...outsider. Those are sort of "cardinal sins" against the qualities that Alistair has on the outside, his which males are often rewarded for displaying in society. Applied to contrasting NPCs in this case.

Simply put, it's discrimination because there wasn't any attempt to give gay gamers choices. I don't know for sure who female PCs can approach but I'm assuming their male NPCs would be Alistair and Zevran. If it turns out that Gaider wrote a character of the year who was appealing and respectful to both female and gay male sensibilities and was a force in the storyline then that is great, but if he didn't then his feelings hardly matter. I am going to assume that Zevran's romance plays out the same whether we play female or male. I may turn out to be wrong. But if I'm right, and  because Jade Empire and Mass Effect are evidence that BioWare does this sort of thing, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to do that for Alistair too, for the sake of respecting gay gamers who give BioWare a measure of goodwill already when BioWare was willing to allow us token representations when it was much riskier to do so. But this demonstrates that they will go no further.

What's holding them back is the need to reassure a segment of straight gamers that in their game world, the gays get their pat on the head and no more. That would be the case, if enough gay gamers care to buy their product.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:59 .

[hexaligned]

.

What's holding them back is the need to reassure a segment of straight gamers that in their game world, the gays get their pat on the head and no more.

Yes, I'm sure thats all part of Biowares master scheme.
Alistair isn't exactly manly, It just sounds like you find his pixels more attractive than Zevs. 

Modifié par relhart, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:02 .

[Malkavianqueen]

maerae wrote...

On one hand I can kinda sympathize with you. Being a lady gamer, we're not always the first priority either and I don't know how many times I've seen the pat answer; well your not the majority and they want to cater to the majority. Yea it's frustrating.

I've often wanted to have more then just one guy to choose from to romance. Or at least said romance to be well interesting ( Skye,anyone?)!

On the other hand, Zev may be a great character. Just won't know till we play the game.

Agreed. You can't say they've never stereotyped on the type of guy women would be interested in (yay knights in shining armor *coughs*Anomen*coughs* *dies*). You just have to learn to accept whatever compromise you can get. I'm just happy that they include romances in these games at all!

But, I'm actually quite looking forward to Zevran. He doesn't seem stereotypical to me at all! Name another game with a bi blond elf assassin with a Spanish accent. ;P Or another movie...Or a book series for that matter...

And I would've been sad if Alistair was the m/m romance option. Because he isn't as pretty. ^__^ *likes her bishounen*

[TheDauntless]

relhart wrote...

Yes, I'm sure thats all part of Biowares master scheme.
Alistair isn't exactly manly, It just sounds like you find his pixels more attractive than Zevs. 

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

Yes, I do. If Alistair were the only choice I'd be more grateful that BioWare chose the riskier one but I would still have a problem with him being the only choice given that there are 2 female NPCs to choose from and there is only one gay. It's role-playing, each of our experiences are meant to be unique and how best to obtain that than to be presented with options?

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:11 .

[hexaligned]

I'm not trying  to be offensive. I don't like either of them, I would much prefer Sten. I don't think Bioware is discriminating against my taste though. I'm not a gay guy so I'm not going to try and say I understand completely where you are coming from, I just don't think the whole victim mindset you have going is accurate.

Modifié par relhart, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:08 .

[Korva]

I admit (though as a lesbian I'm not sure my opinion counts here) that I rolled my eyes a bit too at the thought of Zevran being the one. He does look like the "mainstream" choice, and I'm not pre-disposed to liking the guy based on what we know about him so far -- though I'm trying to give every NPC a chance when I actually see them in-game for myself. But the problem is that IF Zevran is sent to kill the PC, another party member or a friendly non-joinable NPC, I think he's quite likely to wind up dead at the hands of many players. Both hetero gals and gay guys may have to metagame and break character to keep him alive so they can go for his "romance".

(Granted, I think many players are willing to "metagame" for NPCs they know are joinable, and give them more leeway than non-joinables ... the desire not to "miss" anything can be a pain. )

I'm still glad that Bioware actually acknowledges our existence, even though I don't personally care much for "romance" in games. And no, that doesn't mean I'd be happy with a pat on the head and mouldy table scraps, but I don't think that is what we're given. Even if someone is disappointed with the "romanceables", I'd suggest 1) playing the game first to see what it's actually like, and 2) being polite with your opinion because we're much more likely to be heard then.

Modifié par Korva, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:36 .

[Ub3r_]

why do homosexuals ALWAYS have to play victimized all the time, its frustrating, it causes misrepresentation and its always always the same whine. Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against anyone based on their sexual preference, what annoys me is when people scream so loud about what they are. Be thankful they even included an option, I'm sure you probably would have complained had there been no m/m relationships in the game, and I'm sure you would complain if you could have them with EVERY character. If sexual preference is such an issue for you, it think you should sort that out in your own space, and not criticize others because they ACTUALLY included you

[Kharkiv]

TheDauntless wrote...

relhart wrote...

Yes, I'm sure thats all part of Biowares master scheme.
Alistair isn't exactly manly, It just sounds like you find his pixels more attractive than Zevs. 

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

Yes, I do. If Alistair were the only choice I'd be more grateful that BioWare chose the riskier one but I would still have a problem with him being the only choice given that there are 2 female NPCs to choose from and there is only one gay. It's role-playing, each of our experiences are meant to be unique and how best to obtain that than to be presented with options?

OMG I think I have the answer! all the guy's in DA should be gay! are you serious bro? Romances arent the only part to this game, other's have pointed this out already

K.

[Lucy Glitter]

imported_beer wrote...

Why do you think Zev is a "token" offering? Everything ever said about him seems to suggest he is a great character with a dark past.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:06 .

[Ailith Tycane]

Ub3r_ wrote...

why do homosexuals ALWAYS have to play victimized all the time, its frustrating, it causes misrepresentation and its always always the same whine...

Please don't generalize all gay people because of one loud and irrational individual. I disagree with the OP, you arent going to win any battles this way. No one is discriminating against you, this game is not a social commentary its a piece of entertainment made for a profit. The fact that they included any gay romance content at all is amazing in itself considering the gaming industry is so incredibly dominated by straight males. Be greatful for what you get, Bioware doesnt owe you anything besides making a quality game, which they apparently have.

Modifié par Ailith430, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:13 .

[tobajas]

Yah i have to agree if romances is the only reason you want to buy the game then sure if you dont get what you want then i can understand that you dont want to buy it.



But this game and many more games are so much more romances are just a small part of the whole, they are in my part there just so you can feel more atune to the main character and to make the game more "emotional". And to critisize the game just because Gay gets 1 Girls gets 2 straights gets 2 is just childish in my own opinion. While i can understand talking about it but going as far as saying that it is offensive and an insult to the "minority group" and then writting in your own words that you would have been more happy if the gay option would have been the more attractive "non-stereo" type just because it's your preference. Now I do not mean to offend you in anyway but your way of acting and your arguments for the moment are very much like a spoiled child. You cant have everything here in the life i myself have been building anticipitation on this game for 2 years now and now this close to release and getting to see more and more im a bit dissapointed of what i have seen. I've played almost every Bioware out there atleast 5 times each except for the MDK serie and Sonic. Still i have not played the game and dont know yet what to think just because my opinion of what should be in the game aint Biowares opinion doesent mean i have to go all sulky. Blah getting all heated here sorry if i offended you in anyway just stating my opinion as you have clearly stated yours but not in a direct attack that guy way like i sort of just did.

[Daniel Secondthought]

I made this post in another forum and I think it applies here. I'm going to give the Op the benefit of the doubt and address him/her as though he/she is 100% sincere and not just being inflammatory:

"The first thing that came to my head [after learning Zevran is the M/M romance] is "the starving man shouldn't complain about the crumbs he is given". I think that this casts abit too much of a negative tone on thing. Bioware does deserve some degree of kudos. It's more..."the starving man shouldn't complain about the hamburger he is given." This romance is obvious, stereotypical and alittle too "safe". But it's filling and tasty and at the end of the day, I'm happy it's there."

Modifié par Daniel Secondthought, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:36 .