478 réponses à ce sujet

[elemental150]

TheDauntless wrote...

Wait so you think it is better to not have M/M romances at all than
have them but have them be with bi characters....or with the wrong
character?

Why cannot you simply enjoy the beautiful graphics, soundtrack, and hopefully storytelling of DAO and not worry about it also?

I am so confused.

Because when BioWare does not bother to pretend it is a friend to gay gamers I respect them more than when they're pretending they can have it both ways while in reality catering to certain portions of straight gamers first. ME's pretense was that it would appeal to lesbian gamers in the form of Liara. Not so. She was exploited to appeal to straight male gamers primarily, but it looks good to claim that you are LGBT-inclusive when you're already going to receive criticism from conservative censors for having graphic sex, no matter who you perform it with.

I don't like DA's graphics.   I'm also much more of a space opera lover.

so your a twink attracted to other
twinks (maybe?)and are not happy with he most twink like character
because you think he acts to stereotypical based on all of but maybe
ten minutes of footage

Not quite the sum of my argument, but that is one aspect of it. He was their fall guy decision because he is the "least masculine" that many(but not all) people would label out of all the male henchmen. No, he doesn't act like many twinks I know. This is less about him and more about BioWare's choice to use the one who is outwardly stereotypical...and because he should not be the only "gay" male when there are two female options.

I don't know anyone that acts the stereotype...I was talking more looks....

I kind of get what you are saying but I still disagree....I feel that if I took ten minutes of footage of you or me or anyone for that matter gay or straight from an entire year...and cut and edited them I could make anyone look super stereotypical gay. 
I feel like the maybe ten minutes that is out there of the way he acts is far from that stereotype.....I also feel that like stated before it is premature to judge based off of this impression...which by the way having seen all the same footage that is out there that you could have possably of seen, I disagree with your conclusion.....

[elemental150]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

Wait so you think it is better to not have M/M romances at all than
have them but have them be with bi characters....or with the wrong
character?

Why cannot you simply enjoy the beautiful graphics, soundtrack, and hopefully storytelling of DAO and not worry about it also?

I am so confused.

Because when BioWare does not bother to pretend it is a friend to gay gamers I respect them more than when they're pretending they can have it both ways while in reality catering to certain portions of straight gamers first. ME's pretense was that it would appeal to lesbian gamers in the form of Liara. Not so. She was exploited to appeal to straight male gamers primarily, but it looks good to claim that you are LGBT-inclusive when you're already going to receive criticism from conservative censors for having graphic sex, no matter who you perform it with.

I don't like DA's graphics.   I'm also much more of a space opera lover.

so your a twink attracted to other
twinks (maybe?)and are not happy with he most twink like character
because you think he acts to stereotypical based on all of but maybe
ten minutes of footage

Not quite the sum of my argument, but that is one aspect of it. He was their fall guy decision because he is the "least masculine" that many(but not all) people would label out of all the male henchmen. No, he doesn't act like many twinks I know. This is less about him and more about BioWare's choice to use the one who is outwardly stereotypical...and because he should not be the only "gay" male when there are two female options.

So what you're essentially saying is that you're here to complain about a game you were never going to play anyway? Truly, you exemplify everything that is wrong with the gay community.

nope your wrong.....you exemplify everything that is wrong with the straight community just assuming that the compliants of homosexuals are all blown out of proportion and are not based on anything of value....... While I disagree with TheDuantless for his reasons....I can understand where he is coming from

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheDauntless wrote...

Why all the hate on Sky? I thought he was a pretty cool character. I understand some of the arguments about Liara but that was pretty different. What wasn't he manly and Chinese enough given the environment and story? I think your standards on what is 'right' for the gay community in this context makes little sense. Not to mention that you are actually the person stereotyping Zevran based on a passing introduction. Interesting that.

If somebody is hating on Sky that somebody isn't me. My problem was that his M/M kiss was a fade-to-black cop-out. The same was done for the F/F embrace. The reasons for why are not positive to the gay community.

If you're not buying this game and now have a hate/disinterest in anything that is Dragon Age than I suggest you spend your time elsewhere as hanging out here will continue to upset you.

If anyone is being coerced into expressing their feelings here by someone else, please use double-spaces in the future to indicate that you are in distress.

Your entire argument and source of anger is based on the western view
of homosexuality and it's stereotypes. You assume that stereotypes for
homosexuality is the same world wide. Views of homosexuality in eastern
countries are completely different then they are in western countries.
While the vast majority of the world is not particularly favorable
towards homosexuality the level of disfavor, kind of disfavor, and
stereotypes are completely different depending on were you go. I assume
that you are an American.

While certain western ideologies are
common in "western cultures" most cultures have strong difference and
beliefs on a number of subjects, homosexuality being one of them. This
is true even in the US. Demographically the US have different beliefs
on homosexuality. I feel that judging Zevarn as a stereotype because of
his lack of perceived masculinity is both short sighted and premature.

I
know a number of flamboyant people that are quite masculine and a
number of effeminate men that are not that flamboyant if at all. You
argument being that he is an elf which is not rugged and burly and by
extension reinforces a negative stereotype that does not speak to the
actual in reality gay gamer. This makes me assume you are a bear and or
someone that does not identify with mainstream gay culture.

Oh, I am. American, yes. And I'm also a twink.

This game seems to be a European-based fantasy and thus western. Seems to be "mostly" marketed to western audiences. I think it's safe to apply western perspectives from all angles but there is room for everybody's.

Please name one other developer that actually even has same sex romances in their games at all. It almost sounds Bioware is damned if they do and damned if they don't because the way its implimented isn't 100% to your liking, so of course like most young people these days and their false sense of entitlement, you somehow feel justified to whine and moan about it. Seriously get over yourself.

[TheDauntless]

While I disagree with TheDuantless for his reasons....I can understand where he is coming from

You're one of the few who get it.   We're all here just to talk. Nobody has to pick sides. Not with me, you, BioWare, or anyone at all.

Please name one other developer that actually even has same sex
romances in their games at all. It almost sounds Bioware is damned if
they do and damned if they don't because the way its implimented isn't
100% to your liking, so of course like most young people these days and
their false sense of entitlement, you somehow feel justified to whine
and moan about it. Seriously get over yourself.

Of course they're held to a higher standard. They laid sole claim to this(for now) so they should do a better job at representation.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 30 octobre 2009 - 03:37 .

[musicalfrog7]

I think you should be grateful that Bioware is even giving you an option. I'd also like to note that this is the first, VERY Bioware game where the women got just as many extra options as the men. So instead of male players getting to choose from two women and the females getting to choose between a male and a female. We get two males and a female.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheDauntless wrote...

While I disagree with TheDuantless for his reasons....I can understand where he is coming from

You're one of the few who get it.   We're all here just to talk. Nobody has to pick sides. Not with me, you, BioWare, or anyone at all.

Please name one other developer that actually even has same sex
romances in their games at all. It almost sounds Bioware is damned if
they do and damned if they don't because the way its implimented isn't
100% to your liking, so of course like most young people these days and
their false sense of entitlement, you somehow feel justified to whine
and moan about it. Seriously get over yourself.

Of course they're held to a higher standard. They laid sole claim to this(for now) so they should do a better job at representation.

Right, thanks for pretty much confirming what I figured. You want your cake and want to eat it too, its not just good enough that Bioware continually at the very least makes an effort to have options for the gay/bisexual members of the community, it has to be done to a particular "standard" or said section of the community gets all up in arms about it. Ya know, rather than just be greatful same sex romances are represented at all unlike 99.99% of the rest of the games on the market.

[TheDauntless]

I think you should be grateful that Bioware is even giving you an
option.

Not grateful enough to part with money just so I can help a tradition I'm not fond of.

I'd also like to note that this is the first, VERY Bioware game
where the women got just as many extra options as the men. So instead
of male players getting to choose from two women and the females
getting to choose between a male and a female. We get two males and a
female.

That I do applaud. Relax, reap, or whatever it is they say. It's been long past time.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheDauntless wrote...

I think you should be grateful that Bioware is even giving you an
option.

Not grateful enough to part with money just so I can help a tradition I'm not fond of.

I'd also like to note that this is the first, VERY Bioware game
where the women got just as many extra options as the men. So instead
of male players getting to choose from two women and the females
getting to choose between a male and a female. We get two males and a
female.

That I do applaud. Relax, reap, or whatever it is they say. It's been long past time.

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

[bd223437]

mrmoneda wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

The point that you've selected out is that the author of that article that I am talking about created a promiscuous same sex oriented character, Zevran is also a same sex oriented character that is promiscuous.

What you fail to grasp is that Zevran was seemingly "promiscuous" (judgemental terminology FTW!) in that particular playthrough because of choices made by the person playing. It's already been stated by someone who's played the game that it's completely possible for you to have a monogamous relationship with Zevran. The point you're arguing has been false for several pages now.

As for the inclusion of beastiality and the like in this thread... Come on. It's a rediculous, offensive argument to make, and nobody should be making it.

The point I'm making hasn't been touched.  In the playthrough we are discussing Zevran is, at the time point of the information provided to us, promiscuous.  This is not judgmental, this is how he is portrayed to the author at that point in the game.  If you would like to argue colloquial definitions I'm perfectly willing, however he is both casual and irregular with regard to sexual partners, specifically the PC (who is also casual and irregular with regard to sexual partners in this particular playthrough), at this point which qualifies him (and this particular PC) as being characterized as promiscuous.  Again at this point.  Accurate terminology FTW. 

This portrayal as both casual and irregular regarding sexual partners (since you take issue with promiscuous despite it being more concise) is in direct contrast to Morrigan and Leliana who at the SAME point in time in the SAME playthrough with the SAME casual and irregular with regard to sexual partners PC are desiring monogamy.  Now do you see the point?  If being casual and irregular regarding sexual partners led characters to react in a similar manner Morrigan or Leliana, if not both, would react similarly.  They do not.  Instead, more effort is required to pin Zevran to monogamy than other options that are heterosexual.  This is in line with what Ms. Chee said in that some romantic option offers sex earlier in a relationship than they offer monogamy in direct comparison to other relationship options.  So again the point is not inaccurate.  This is also the problem. 

If more effort is required to pin down a same sex oriented male character to monogamy, then for the larger and likely more memorable portion of the game, he will be fulfilling and reinforcing the casual and irregular with regard to sexual partners stereotype.  If more work is required and was missed by the author of that particular article, it remains entirely possible that this will be missed by others as well.  I am perfectly willing to submit that the article, like so many snipped quotes on forums, is taken out of the larger context of the game.  However the damage has been done at present, the author believes Zevran promiscuous, Ms. Chee stated that at this point more work is required on Zevran to establish monogamy and the stereotypes intended or not keep being reinforced.  So my point is not false despite your assertions. 

Modifié par bd223437, 30 octobre 2009 - 04:16 .

[Ub3r_]

TheDauntless kinda sounds like the guy in this story: http://www.news.com....080-421,00.html

[danabe]

Now this is entertainmet!

[TheDauntless]

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

My mind hasn't changed. I'm still disappointed. If I didn't have KOTOR, JE, and ME to base my accusations on I wouldn't have posted. History speaks for itself, though. Or at the very least if this were Alistair and not Zevran any complaints about race or stereotype would be absent from my argument. I would still have a problem with just one option.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 30 octobre 2009 - 04:17 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheDauntless wrote...

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

My mind hasn't changed. I'm still disappointed. If I didn't have KOTOR, JE, and ME to base my accusations on I wouldn't have posted. History speaks for itself, though. Or at the very least if this were Alistair and not Zevran I would not have any complaints on the basis of race or stereotype.

Fair enough, though maybe Bioware should just not do any same sex relationships in their games in the future to avoid pissing off the same section of the community the're trying to give attention to.

[danabe]

TheDauntless wrote...

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

If you have been around for a while. You should have guessed what would have happen.

[bd223437]

TheDauntless wrote...

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

My mind hasn't changed. I'm still disappointed. If I didn't have KOTOR, JE, and ME to base my accusations on I wouldn't have posted. History speaks for itself, though. Or at the very least if this were Alistair and not Zevran any complaints about race or stereotype would be absent from my argument. I would still have a problem with just one option.

I guess I'm a bit confused as to why one option is worse than no options to you.  You mentioned you are looking forward to Mass Effect 2 and yet no same sex male options will be present.  Supporting no options in contrast to supporting a game with at least one possibility seems to work at cross purposes to your goal of more options.  Could you perhaps explain a bit more?  I was under the impression that you disliked Zevran due to evidence suggesting he embraces negative stereotypes not just because he was all you could choose from.

[hexaligned]

bd223437 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

My mind hasn't changed. I'm still disappointed. If I didn't have KOTOR, JE, and ME to base my accusations on I wouldn't have posted. History speaks for itself, though. Or at the very least if this were Alistair and not Zevran any complaints about race or stereotype would be absent from my argument. I would still have a problem with just one option.

I guess I'm a bit confused as to why one option is worse than no options to you.  You mentioned you are looking forward to Mass Effect 2 and yet no same sex male options will be present.  Supporting no options in contrast to supporting a game with at least one possibility seems to work at cross purposes to your goal of more options.  Could you perhaps explain a bit more?  I was under the impression that you disliked Zevran due to evidence suggesting he embraces negative stereotypes not just because he was all you could choose from.

He's just butthurt(shh), that it isn't Alistair,

[AustrianAndI]

I dunno... I kind of think Zevran is sexy...

[TheDauntless]

If you have been around for a while. You should have guessed what would have happen.

Yes, on and off. I usually avoided threads which were dumping on the games because people couldn't spell and I was more interested in the topics relating to my areas of interest for potential characters and npcs.

Fair enough, though maybe
Bioware should just not do any same sex relationships in their games in the
future to avoid pissing off the same section of the community the're trying to
give attention to.

Yep.

I guess I'm a bit
confused as to why one option is worse than no options to you.  You
mentioned you are looking forward to Mass Effect 2 and yet no same sex male
options will be present.  Supporting no options in contrast to supporting
a game with at least one possibility seems to work at cross purposes to your
goal of more options.  Could you perhaps explain a bit more?  I was
under the impression that you disliked Zevran due to evidence suggesting he
embraces negative stereotypes not just because he was all you could choose
from.

The better to not get my hopes up in thinking that BioWare will come through. They haven't. Actually you're right on both counts regarding my dislike for Zevran...they both apply. He should not be the only M/M choice but he is and that is made worse by the fact that he exhibits unfavorable outward stereotypes. I like it better when I know for certain I know where I stand and BioWare doesn't pretend to be something better than it actually is.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 30 octobre 2009 - 04:45 .

[JEBesh]

TheDauntless wrote...

He should not be the only M/M choice but he is and that is made worse by the fact that he exhibits unfavorable outward stereotypes.

I'm interested in hearing what those stereotypes are.

[Ub3r_]

there are 4 characters for romance, 2 female, 2 male - and one each of the genders are bi-orientated, the choice is limited for EVERYONE, where is my blonde woman option? the game is descriminating against my taste!!!, where is the dwarf woman choice? again!!!



seriously grow up, enjoy the game, and stop being a ****y little nit-picker

[FerretGirl]

Personally I think Zevran being bi as opposed to Alistair as more to do with their personal story and background than any stereotype.

[TheDauntless]

I'm interested in hearing what those stereotypes are.

I'm afraid you'll need to catch yourself up by scrolling back through my other posts. Or not. Good night!

[Valmy]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
So what you're essentially saying is that you're here to complain about a game you were never going to play anyway? Truly, you exemplify everything that is wrong with the gay community.

All I can say is I am so glad nobody thinks anybody on these boards speaks for the straight community.

[Valmy]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

The attention, the drama, the excitement?  Why else do people troll forums?

[maerae]

FerretGirl wrote...

Personally I think Zevran being bi as opposed to Alistair as more to do with their personal story and background than any stereotype.

Your probably right, but no one is going to listen. This thread has gone on and on and on...oh please!! Is it Tuesday yet??? I think I'm going stir crazy reading these crazy threads.