478 réponses à ce sujet

[JEBesh]

TheDauntless wrote...
I'm afraid you'll need to catch yourself up by scrolling back through my other posts. Or not. Good night!

If you can't give a brief summary of the specific sterotypes, I'll pass. The thread is far too long-winded for my tastes.

[FerretGirl]

maerae wrote...

FerretGirl wrote...

Personally I think Zevran being bi as opposed to Alistair as more to do with their personal story and background than any stereotype.

Your probably right, but no one is going to listen. This thread has gone on and on and on...oh please!! Is it Tuesday yet??? I think I'm going stir crazy reading these crazy threads.

Same here but it's either that or making my friends crazy by talking about DAO so....

Modifié par FerretGirl, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:03 .

[maerae]

Lol..so true! I may complain,but I'll be back... at least until Tuesday..then I'll be MIA

[bd223437]

JEBesh wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
I'm afraid you'll need to catch yourself up by scrolling back through my other posts. Or not. Good night!

If you can't give a brief summary of the specific sterotypes, I'll pass. The thread is far too long-winded for my tastes.

There are two primary concerns.  The first is Zevran's upbringing, he was surrounded by individuals in the sex industry which  may lead to the belief that it contributed to a sexually fluid character suggesting that sexual orientation is shaped by moral upbringing.  Also in the "Sex and the Single Dragon Age Hero" article Zevran is professing a desire for an open relationship at the same point that Morrigan and Leliana are expressing a desire for monogamy (the author of the article was simultaneously attempting to romance all three options for a male PC).  Sheryl Chee has said (as synthesized from a post named after the article on the Dragon Age spoiler forum and her post in this thread) that at different points for different romantic options it is possible for monogamy.  The concern here is that Zevran is the last to fall in line reinforcing the negative image of same sex oriented males as interested in multiple partners.  Hope that catches you up to speed.

Modifié par bd223437, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:12 .

[Pyro_Monkey]

TheDauntless wrote...
The better to not get my hopes up in thinking that BioWare will come through. They haven't. Actually you're right on both counts regarding my dislike for Zevran...they both apply. He should not be the only M/M choice but he is and that is made worse by the fact that he exhibits unfavorable outward stereotypes. I like it better when I know for certain I know where I stand and BioWare doesn't pretend to be something better than it actually is.

So what this basically boils down to is that based solely on one comment long before the game is released, where you heard that there was a homosexual relationship in the game, you immediately got your hopes up to an impossible level, no doubt fantasizing about your preferred options for said romance, then when the information is finally released, you feel betrayed because it doesn't meet up to the expectations that you created?  this is in no way Bioware's problem.  They never said you'd have your dream man available, all they said was you'd have A man available.  if you've played as many video games as you keep saying you have, then you should no by now, hype is hype, whether it's passed about on the forums, or self created, it doesn't matter the subject, you should know by now that a game is always less than it's hyped up to be, you should know better than to hype games up yourself, and you should know that untill the game is released, any and all information may or may not be true.

You have no one to blame but yourself.

[Lucy Glitter]

I have to say, the lumberjack bearded Zevran is really quite hilarious.

[Sheryl Chee]

bd223437 wrote...
 Sheryl Chee has said (as synthesized from a post named after the article on the Dragon Age spoiler forum and her post in this thread) that at different points for different romantic options it is possible for monogamy.  The concern here is that Zevran is the last to fall in line reinforcing the negative image of homosexual males as interested in multiple partners.  Hope that catches you up to speed.

I wasn't really going to respond to this thread anymore because it really feels as though it's gone in circles and isn't going anywhere new at this point, but you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Zevran is running off to sleep with random, nameless NPCs while you, the player, are busy fighting darkspawn. You seem to believe that the player is the one that has to fight to keep Zevran monogamous, and I'm not even sure where you got this idea, because it's clear, even from the article, that it's the PC doing the sleeping around, not Zevran. The player is the one with agency here. If you want a a monogamous relationship with Zevran, you can get one from the start. 

Modifié par Sheryl Chee, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:15 .

[bd223437]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

bd223437 wrote...
 Sheryl Chee has said (as synthesized from a post named after the article on the Dragon Age spoiler forum and her post in this thread) that at different points for different romantic options it is possible for monogamy.  The concern here is that Zevran is the last to fall in line reinforcing the negative image of homosexual males as interested in multiple partners.  Hope that catches you up to speed.

I wasn't really going to respond to this thread anymore because it really feels as though it's gone in circles and isn't going anywhere new at this point, but you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Zevran is running off to sleep with random, nameless NPCs while you, the player, are busy fighting darkspawn. You seem to believe that the player is the one that has to fight to keep Zevran monogamous, and I'm not even sure where you got this idea, because it's clear, even from the article, that it's the PC doing the sleeping around, not Zevran. The player is the one with agency here. If you want a a monogamous relationship with Zevran, you can get one from the start. 

I'm sincerely flattered that you are taking the time to respond to me Ms. Chee, I hope I can illustrate where our difference of opinion is coming from. 

The impression comes from this:   "Bam. Afterwards, he makes it quite clear that he doesn't expect me to
put a ring on it. He's a himbo, and to be fair, that does square with
his backstory -- born in a brothel, raised as an assassin, recounts a
tale about sleeping with a female assassination target before carrying
out his job, etc."  Taken from the article we're discussing, fifth to last paragraph directly under the pictures of a PC and Zevran following the link posted on the DA:O spoiler forum.  Along with your suggestion that the player can persue monogamy, I would suggest that yes the player, as the agent, has to fight for him since he's not making it clear, to the author at least, that he is interested in monogamy.  This is in contrast to the author's discussion of Leliana and Morrigan which suggests they are pushing for exclusivity at that time. 

I would further suggest that even if he isn't currently prowling the nearest town or camp for a no names rendezvous, the author was left with the impression that he had such relationships in the past and that this is perfectly within his character as evidenced by the second to last paragraph:  "But the casual sex, which could be used as a tool to deepen your
understanding and empathy for the other characters, tends to reinforce
the idea of women as alternately jealous, catty, smothering, and
weak-willed (easily taking back a lover that has strayed), while
perpetuating the stereotype of the promiscuous gay/bisexual man." 

Presently however, if my understanding is misguided it is due to the synthesis of the information presented in this article, with particular attention paid to the portions highlighted above.  This, coupled with the explanation that the comparison group of Morrigan and Leliana are, at the point in the game the article discusses, seeking monogamy sooner than Zevran leads to the understanding that you have to put in more effort for that with all other relationships being equal.  I do truly appreciate you taking the time and reassuring us that monogamy is possible for all relationship opportunities. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and further my understanding.  Also, please understand, regardless of what stereotypes are or are not embraced by any particular character, I personally do appreciate that same sex partners were included and look forward to a more complete understanding once the game is released.

[mrmoneda]

JEBesh wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
I'm afraid you'll need to catch yourself up by scrolling back through my other posts. Or not. Good night!

If you can't give a brief summary of the specific sterotypes, I'll pass. The thread is far too long-winded for my tastes.

Somehow Zevran is a more stereotypical gay man because he's not white.

[mrmoneda]

bd223437 wrote...

Sheryl Chee wrote...

bd223437 wrote...
 Sheryl Chee has said (as synthesized from a post named after the article on the Dragon Age spoiler forum and her post in this thread) that at different points for different romantic options it is possible for monogamy.  The concern here is that Zevran is the last to fall in line reinforcing the negative image of homosexual males as interested in multiple partners.  Hope that catches you up to speed.

I wasn't really going to respond to this thread anymore because it really feels as though it's gone in circles and isn't going anywhere new at this point, but you seem to be under the mistaken impression that Zevran is running off to sleep with random, nameless NPCs while you, the player, are busy fighting darkspawn. You seem to believe that the player is the one that has to fight to keep Zevran monogamous, and I'm not even sure where you got this idea, because it's clear, even from the article, that it's the PC doing the sleeping around, not Zevran. The player is the one with agency here. If you want a a monogamous relationship with Zevran, you can get one from the start. 

I'm sincerely flattered that you are taking the time to respond to me Ms. Chee, I hope I can illustrate where our difference of opinion is coming from. 

The impression comes from this:   "Bam. Afterwards, he makes it quite clear that he doesn't expect me to
put a ring on it. He's a himbo, and to be fair, that does square with
his backstory -- born in a brothel, raised as an assassin, recounts a
tale about sleeping with a female assassination target before carrying
out his job, etc."  Taken from the article we're discussing, fifth to last paragraph directly under the pictures of a PC and Zevran following the link posted on the DA:O spoiler forum.  Along with your suggestion that the player can persue monogamy, I would suggest that yes the player, as the agent, has to fight for him since he's not making it clear, to the author at least, that he is interested in monogamy.  This is in contrast to the author's discussion of Leliana and Morrigan which suggests they are pushing for exclusivity at that time. 

I would further suggest that even if he isn't currently prowling the nearest town or camp for a no names rendezvous, the author was left with the impression that he had such relationships in the past and that this is perfectly within his character as evidenced by the second to last paragraph:  "But the casual sex, which could be used as a tool to deepen your
understanding and empathy for the other characters, tends to reinforce
the idea of women as alternately jealous, catty, smothering, and
weak-willed (easily taking back a lover that has strayed), while
perpetuating the stereotype of the promiscuous gay/bisexual man." 

Presently however, if my understanding is misguided it is due to the synthesis of the information presented in this article, with particular attention paid to the portions highlighted above.  This, coupled with the explanation that the comparison group of Morrigan and Leliana are, at the point in the game the article discusses, seeking monogamy sooner than Zevran leads to the understanding that you have to put in more effort for that with all other relationships being equal.  I do truly appreciate you taking the time and reassuring us that monogamy is possible for all relationship opportunities. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and further my understanding.  Also, please understand, regardless of what stereotypes are or are not embraced by any particular character, I personally do appreciate that same sex partners were included and look forward to a more complete understanding once the game is released.

There was no monogamous relationship with Zevran because the player did not pursue one. That Zevran's personality dictate he tell you that he didn't intend to tie you down does not indicate (or shouldn't) that he does not ever wish to be monogamous.

[Darthnemesis2]

mrmoneda wrote...

JEBesh wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
I'm afraid you'll need to catch yourself up by scrolling back through my other posts. Or not. Good night!

If you can't give a brief summary of the specific sterotypes, I'll pass. The thread is far too long-winded for my tastes.

Somehow Zevran is a more stereotypical gay man because he's not white.

Exactly. The stereotype guidelines clearly state that for an NPC to be gay he must be of an ethnic background other than white.

[bd223437]

But that contrasts to Morrigan who to the same PC who was not seeking monogamy has this reaction:

"Simply know that I have no designs on your independence. I wish
only to do what I desire, and if that coincides with what you
desire...then so be it," she says. So that's it, she's a sexual
libertarian and won't care if I'm a total man-****, right?
Nope. So the dialogue ends and I'm back to running around camp. I
talk to Morrigan again, right away, and it seems that in the
intervening seconds, much has changed: "I notice that you are spending
a great deal of time with that girl. The bard," she hisses,
meaning Leliana. And then, despite the whole independence speech
moments before, she also demands a 'her or me' decision. But that's not
all -- then she offers me a magic ring, which she can use to track my
location at all times!"

A comprable option did not present itself for that author with Zevran.  Maybe he would have eventually, we lack evidence from that article to confirm or deny that possibility.  So the perception is that the PC has to work to get Zevran to that point, which is supported by the quote that monogamy with Zevran is a possibility.  It remains unavailable to Zevran at the same point it is available for Morrigan (and Leliana though her reaction is not highlighted above) in this article.  I would personally be extremely impressed with the developers if Zevran could vacillate so drastically between playthroughs. 

Modifié par bd223437, 30 octobre 2009 - 06:20 .

[Mary Kirby]

bd223437 wrote...

The impression comes from this:   "Bam. Afterwards, he makes it quite clear that he doesn't expect me to
put a ring on it. He's a himbo, and to be fair, that does square with
his backstory -- born in a brothel, raised as an assassin, recounts a
tale about sleeping with a female assassination target before carrying
out his job, etc."  Taken from the article we're discussing, fifth to last paragraph directly under the pictures of a PC and Zevran following the link posted on the DA:O spoiler forum.  Along with your suggestion that the player can persue monogamy, I would suggest that yes the player, as the agent, has to fight for him since he's not making it clear, to the author at least, that he is interested in monogamy.  This is in contrast to the author's discussion of Leliana and Morrigan which suggests they are pushing for exclusivity at that time. 

I would further suggest that even if he isn't currently prowling the nearest town or camp for a no names rendezvous, the author was left with the impression that he had such relationships in the past and that this is perfectly within his character as evidenced by the second to last paragraph:  "But the casual sex, which could be used as a tool to deepen your
understanding and empathy for the other characters, tends to reinforce
the idea of women as alternately jealous, catty, smothering, and
weak-willed (easily taking back a lover that has strayed), while
perpetuating the stereotype of the promiscuous gay/bisexual man." 

Presently however, if my understanding is misguided it is due to the synthesis of the information presented in this article, with particular attention paid to the portions highlighted above.  This, coupled with the explanation that the comparison group of Morrigan and Leliana are, at the point in the game the article discusses, seeking monogamy sooner than Zevran leads to the understanding that you have to put in more effort for that with all other relationships being equal.  I do truly appreciate you taking the time and reassuring us that monogamy is possible for all relationship opportunities. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and further my understanding.  Also, please understand, regardless of what stereotypes are or are not embraced by any particular character, I personally do appreciate that same sex partners were included and look forward to a more complete understanding once the game is released.

I am going to kick everyone's puppies now and reveal that none of the romances have or allow "open" relationships.  To take all the romance out of the romances and show you the mechanics:  Every single character gives you an "it's me or him/her" speech if they are in love with you and one other romance NPC is in love with you.  Hitting the "love" state is what triggers the jealousy talk for all characters.  Even Zevran.

More mechanics: Everyone will take you back if you stray or tick them off a maximum of two times.  After that, you're dumped.  That was your failsafe so that you could pick one or two conversation options that upset them without terminating the romance irrevocably. 

Depending on personality, some characters will sleep with you before they fall in love.  They will give you an "I don't want to be tied down" speech.  Once they fall in love, you get an, "Okay, remember how I said I didn't want to be tied down?  Yeah, maybe I was wrong" speech.

They are absolutely all scripted the same.  What does this say about our portrayal of characters as weak-willed , catty, or promiscuous?  Nothing whatsoever since they are completely uniform in this regard across gender, sexuality, and personality.  Computer programs.  Go figure.

[mrmoneda]

bd223437 wrote...

So the perception is that the PC has to work to get Zevran to that point...

To you.

[mrmoneda]

Mary Kirby wrote...

They are absolutely all scripted the same.  What does this say about our portrayal of characters as weak-willed , catty, or promiscuous?  Nothing whatsoever since they are completely uniform in this regard across gender, sexuality, and personality.  Computer programs.  Go figure.

You know what I like about computers? To them 2 + 2 will always equal 4.

[bd223437]

Mary Kirby wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

The impression comes from this:   "Bam. Afterwards, he makes it quite clear that he doesn't expect me to
put a ring on it. He's a himbo, and to be fair, that does square with
his backstory -- born in a brothel, raised as an assassin, recounts a
tale about sleeping with a female assassination target before carrying
out his job, etc."  Taken from the article we're discussing, fifth to last paragraph directly under the pictures of a PC and Zevran following the link posted on the DA:O spoiler forum.  Along with your suggestion that the player can persue monogamy, I would suggest that yes the player, as the agent, has to fight for him since he's not making it clear, to the author at least, that he is interested in monogamy.  This is in contrast to the author's discussion of Leliana and Morrigan which suggests they are pushing for exclusivity at that time. 

I would further suggest that even if he isn't currently prowling the nearest town or camp for a no names rendezvous, the author was left with the impression that he had such relationships in the past and that this is perfectly within his character as evidenced by the second to last paragraph:  "But the casual sex, which could be used as a tool to deepen your
understanding and empathy for the other characters, tends to reinforce
the idea of women as alternately jealous, catty, smothering, and
weak-willed (easily taking back a lover that has strayed), while
perpetuating the stereotype of the promiscuous gay/bisexual man." 

Presently however, if my understanding is misguided it is due to the synthesis of the information presented in this article, with particular attention paid to the portions highlighted above.  This, coupled with the explanation that the comparison group of Morrigan and Leliana are, at the point in the game the article discusses, seeking monogamy sooner than Zevran leads to the understanding that you have to put in more effort for that with all other relationships being equal.  I do truly appreciate you taking the time and reassuring us that monogamy is possible for all relationship opportunities. 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and further my understanding.  Also, please understand, regardless of what stereotypes are or are not embraced by any particular character, I personally do appreciate that same sex partners were included and look forward to a more complete understanding once the game is released.

I am going to kick everyone's puppies now and reveal that none of the romances have or allow "open" relationships.  To take all the romance out of the romances and show you the mechanics:  Every single character gives you an "it's me or him/her" speech if they are in love with you and one other romance NPC is in love with you.  Hitting the "love" state is what triggers the jealousy talk for all characters.  Even Zevran.

More mechanics: Everyone will take you back if you stray or tick them off a maximum of two times.  After that, you're dumped.  That was your failsafe so that you could pick one or two conversation options that upset them without terminating the romance irrevocably. 

Depending on personality, some characters will sleep with you before they fall in love.  They will give you an "I don't want to be tied down" speech.  Once they fall in love, you get an, "Okay, remember how I said I didn't want to be tied down?  Yeah, maybe I was wrong" speech.

They are absolutely all scripted the same.  What does this say about our portrayal of characters as weak-willed , catty, or promiscuous?  Nothing whatsoever since they are completely uniform in this regard across gender, sexuality, and personality.  Computer programs.  Go figure.

Thank you Ms. Kirby!  It is unfortunate that the author of that article was unable to trigger them with Zevran which led him to that interpretation.  I am very glad that this presented the option for you to officially dispell the misconception that Bioware would somehow deal with available relationships in an unequal manner. 

[bd223437]

mrmoneda wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

So the perception is that the PC has to work to get Zevran to that point...

To you.

I would suggest the author of that article didn't believe it was possible so between not possible and eventually possible it would suggest player effort intervenes, but we have the final say which I am more than happy with.  Thanks again to Ms. Chee and Ms. Kirby for taking part in this discussion. 

[Mary Kirby]

bd223437 wrote...


Thank you Ms. Kirby!  It is unfortunate that the author of that article was unable to trigger them with Zevran which led him to that interpretation.  I am very glad that this presented the option for you to officially dispell the misconception that Bioware would somehow deal with available relationships in an unequal manner. 

You'll always get Zevran later in the game than Morrigan or Leliana, and therefore anyone who is trying all the romances at once will naturally be further behind in approval with him than with anyone else.  It isn't at all surprising that the reviewer didn't trigger his jealousy or love talks.  The reviewer also didn't play female and therefore didn't see Alistair have the exact same sort of jealous reaction/forgiveness as Leliana or Morrigan.

[Sabriana]

Shouldn't that be 1+0+2=3?



But seriously, this thread is running in circles around an article that someone put up somewhere. It wasn't even a real review of the game.

Yeah, yeah, I eventually went back and read it, because of this thread, I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Even I could see that the story, as written had great gaps in it, and I haven't even played the game.



And I'm not reading Ms. Kirby's post, and no one can make me. Lalala, I can't see you.

[bd223437]

Mary Kirby wrote...

bd223437 wrote...


Thank you Ms. Kirby!  It is unfortunate that the author of that article was unable to trigger them with Zevran which led him to that interpretation.  I am very glad that this presented the option for you to officially dispell the misconception that Bioware would somehow deal with available relationships in an unequal manner. 

You'll always get Zevran later in the game than Morrigan or Leliana, and therefore anyone who is trying all the romances at once will naturally be further behind in approval with him than with anyone else.  It isn't at all surprising that the reviewer didn't trigger his jealousy or love talks.  The reviewer also didn't play female and therefore didn't see Alistair have the exact same sort of jealous reaction/forgiveness as Leliana or Morrigan.

On the point of the author not playing a female.  I have to admit, I'm a bit relieved he didn't.  Triggering that kind of response lacking more context would likely have led to Alistair=Carth/Kaidan/whiny.  The female leads like Morrigan and Leliana thankfully seem a bit more resistant to that kind of grouping in forum discussions.  Though this treads dangerously close to off topic, so I will say that I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion, the insights provided by the developers in particular were much appreciated.

Modifié par bd223437, 30 octobre 2009 - 06:45 .

[Teemu733]

I think it's great that Bioware has included same sex romances in the game. The OP's coming off as a little ridiculous.



When I first saw pictures of both Zevran and Alistair and read some developer quotes from the fan wiki, I did think Zevran was the stereotypical effeminate elf guy and Alistair looked like the hunky warrior dude. Then I watched the videos for them -- Alistair sounds really boyish, even effeminate, while Zevran is a pretty regular fantasy hero guy. Which is neat, because we have Sten and Oghren as the more masculine members and Zevran and Alistair resembling the more "average" man.



But ultimately, the game is not about the romances. They're just a side plot thing. I'm confident that you can enjoy the game immensely even if you ignore the romances completely. I did in ME.

[Ub3r_]

Lets explore the male romance options as they were intended, taking physical apearances as the only measure

Alistair:
images4.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/e/ec/Alistair_concept.jpg

Zevran:
images1.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/d/d4/Zevran_Concept_Art.jpg

you decide who is more "Masculine" (personally i think neither in thier concept art form look in anway shape or form your sterotypical gay man)

[David Gaider]

bd223437 wrote...
I would suggest the author of that article didn't believe it was possible so between not possible and eventually possible it would suggest player effort intervenes, but we have the final say which I am more than happy with.  Thanks again to Ms. Chee and Ms. Kirby for taking part in this discussion. 

The thing about the article is that the author got up to the sex scene and the stuff that Zevran says after that point and seems to take it completely at face value. Zevran leaves the player an out, if a casual relationship is indeed what the player wants, but the player can certainly take it further than that -- at which point Zevran is getting into unfamiliar territory and things get interesting. Did the reviewer get there? I can't rightly say, but for all the possible romances the sex is by no means the be-all and end-all of their relationship.

Does Zevran have a more pragmatic attitude towards sex? Yes he does. That's a result of his upbringing and not so much of his sexual preferences. Does this make him a "himbo" who only treats the relationship cavalierly as some kind of quickie? No, nor do I think that's all a gay relationship can (or should) be, but that may be as far as a player wishes to take it and certainly Zevran advocates (at least initially) that this may be for the best.

Someone can get anxious about the idea that he may just be a stereotype, but as Mary points out Zevran is ultimately handled much the same as any relationship with the player. Different in character, perhaps, but not in nature.

Beyond that, I'll leave you to judge for yourselves as the game is right around the corner. As some people have mentioned, a lot of these speculations are being conjured based on assumptions of a stereotype that you'll find just doesn't match the reality. This is not to say that everyone will automatically like *any* character or find them personally suitable as a romance -- but we were never aiming to satisfy everyone on that front, straight or gay, nor is such a thing possible. I'm pretty confident that most players have a pretty reasonable attitude on this front, and those who choose to take part in one of the romances are likely to find something to enjoy in them. And that's my two cents (again).

[MightySword]

David Gaider wrote...
 but for all the possible romances the sex is by no means the be-all and end-all of their relationship.

Does that mean we should be expecting babies?

[Sabriana]

David Gaider wrote...
<snip>
Zevran leaves the player an out, if a casual relationship is indeed what the player wants, but the player can certainly take it further than that -- at which point Zevran is getting into unfamiliar territory and things get interesting. Did the reviewer get there? I can't rightly say, but for all the possible romances the sex is by no means the be-all and end-all of their relationship.
<snip>

How intriguing. I was going to go with Alistair first, but this might just change my mind.

As for the reviewer, he didn't get anywhere closer to Zevran than the sex,  poor Zevran wasn't given the opportunity to get into the committment area.